Pre-trib rapture in the Bible

Jamdoc said:

Now, there is precedent for rapture into heaven in scripture. Enoch, Elijah, Jesus on His ascension, the 2 witnesses after being killed in Revelation 11, and it can be inferred in Revelation 7 and 15, both of which show the saints in heaven rejoicing having come out of Great Tribulation/overcome the image/mark of the beast, after a passage that involves Jesus in the clouds in each case.

It's just not pre-trib.

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That was the whole point. Raptures to heaven, such as Paul's vision of the 3rd heaven, and John's being caught up to see visions of the endtimes, have nothing whatsoever to do with the Rapture of the Church. However, many events are described in the Revelation using symbols commonly associated with Christ's 2nd Coming.

Jamdoc said:

I can tell I'm going to have to beat this into your head bluntly.
There is no "7 year tribulation", especially not a 7 year Great Tribulation.

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Please don't communicate this way with others. Persistence is okay, but not language that expresses "beating things into one's head!" You'll never win converts to your position that way! And it isn't very Christian, either.

I mean, rebuking is indeed Christian. But does a difference of opinion always warrant a "rebuke?" I don't think so.

For the record, I agree with you that there is no 7 years Tribulation. But then again, I don't agree with you either that there's a 7 year *Period,* divided into two halves.

Jamdoc said:

It's not 7 years because they only start after the Abomination of Desolation, the midpoint of the 70th week, AND it's not even a full 3.5 years, because for the Elect's sake, those days will be shortened.

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The 70th Week of Daniel in Dan 9, and the AoD in both Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse were both fulfilled in history with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. These things never applied to the endtimes, but only to the time of Jesus' earthly ministry and immediately following. They do ultimately lead to the endtimes because the end of Jesus' earthly ministry led to God's final outreach to the world.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

The 7 churches of revelation, yes, these churches existed, but the also spiritually represent the church throughout it's whole existence. So when Jesus comes for His church, it will be the spiritual Christians of the church of Philadelphia He takes with Him.

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This isn't biblical--it's a "spiritual" interpretation applied by Dispensationalists. If we are to properly interpret Scriptures we should be careful not to speak for the Holy Spirit. He said what He meant to say, and nothing more. Adding to the words just offers an opportunity for controversy and confusion, along with division to follow.

What keeps us on course and unified in sentiment is sticking to what the Holy Spirit chose to say--not what some tradition in Dispensationalism said. We can only unite around what is explicitly said about the 7 churches. And *nothing*--I repeat, *nothing* said that the 7 churches represented eras of church history.

On the contrary, the clear context indicates that all 7 churches existed in *John's time.* What you're saying has no place in Scriptures, but is pure speculation as to how God may have intended to use these literal, historic church messages in history, progressively.

It may very well be that God has used these churches as a pattern, progressively, in history. It may also be that God means to imply that all 7 churches exist in all times in church history. I'm just recommending we be careful when taking liberties with God's word. And we certainly shouldn't make extra-biblical commentaries a matter of required dogma!

RandyPNW said:

That was the whole point. Raptures to heaven, such as Paul's vision of the 3rd heaven, and John's being caught up to see visions of the endtimes, have nothing whatsoever to do with the Rapture of the Church. However, many events are described in the Revelation using symbols commonly associated with Christ's 2nd Coming.

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I wouldn't go that far, John and Paul saw spiritual visions as far as we know, Paul says he didn't know (and was kind of beating around the bush as to it being him that he was referring to), but Enoch and Elijah and Jesus were bodily taken to heaven. So it's not always the same thing but we do know there are bodily raptures to heaven and Paul does describe a bodily taking up after the resurrection, and Jesus said He will receive us to Himself in a place He has prepared for us. Jesus is in heaven, and He went to prepare a place for us. So.. where's He receiving us?
I'd argue heaven.

Please don't communicate this way with others. Persistence is okay, but not language that expresses "beating things into one's head!" You'll never win converts to your position that way! And it isn't very Christian, either.

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Yeah I apologize if this was taken literally it was not meant literally, I was just meaning that I was going to have to thoroughly rebuke. I come from a military background, when we got "beat" it didn't mean the drill instructor laid hands on us either.
But in this case I just wanted to emphasize that this was not something I'm passive about, but it's a relatively common misunderstanding that I think people need to go back to their bibles on, too many people listen to their pastors rather than Jesus.
If you'll note I wasn't swearing at him or anything like that, I just walked him through scripture.

I mean, rebuking is indeed Christian. But does a difference of opinion always warrant a "rebuke?" I don't think so.

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I think it can when it comes to listening to what's being parroted by other people when Jesus spells it out for us.

For the record, I agree with you that there is no 7 years Tribulation. But then again, I don't agree with you either that there's a 7 year *Period,* divided into two halves.



The 70th Week of Daniel in Dan 9, and the AoD in both Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse were both fulfilled in history with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. These things never applied to the endtimes, but only to the time of Jesus' earthly ministry and immediately following. They do ultimately lead to the endtimes because the end of Jesus' earthly ministry led to God's final outreach to the world.

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and we've already exhausted that. I think you'll see in your lifetime what the AoD and Great Tribulation really are.

What with Prince Charles claiming that we have to mobilize a military style campaign to unite the world with Trillions of dollars at his disposal.. and no Charles was not referring to himself, and it was not a slipup. He was referring to a third party, currently unknown person, that he says has to have trillions of dollars and the entire cooperation of the private sector to solve climate change.... and he was reading off his notes when he said it. It was not a mistake.

So yeah, we might be seeing it play out in a matter of a few years.

Big_John said:

Ok... let's say the Great Tribulation is only 3.5 years. What's the point in regard to the Rapture? The Rapture is still prior to the start of the full 7 years.




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not supported in scripture.
nowhere does it say that the rapture is before the 70th week.
everywhere in scripture says that the rapture is at the second coming of Christ, and the second coming of Christ comes after the midpoint.

before you say "the rapture and the second coming aren't the same"
Paul disagrees

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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The rapture happens when Jesus descends from Heaven. This is non negotiable.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

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First let's break down this verse.
#1, who's this to? Brethren, that is, those in Christ, the church. That's the audience.
#2. Paul says that it's about the coming of Jesus, AND our gathering unto Him. That is, a connection between the rapture, and the second coming.
#3. Remember, the audience is the Church here, Paul says our gathering together unto Him. That is including himself, and the church, this is not talking about some dispensational gathering of the Jews to Israel like people claim about the Olivet Discourse.

So therefore, the rapture, is connected to the second coming, and the second coming happens first because as 1 Thessalonians 4 made clear, the Lord descends from heaven, THEN the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens, THEN we who are alive and remain are caught up.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

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Paul is saying that it's not imminent, the opposite of pretribulationist teaching, and Paul is in fact, saying ignore people who claim it's imminent (what 'at hand' means)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

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Here Paul lays out the 2 prerequisite events, the falling away/apostasy, and the revealing of antichrist.

In all of this, Paul is in agreement with Jesus who stated that before He comes:

Matthew 24

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

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This is what Paul refers to as the falling away

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

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and this is what Paul refers to as the man of sin being revealed.

Paul agrees with Jesus' order of events, and He's telling it to the Church.


Now, will we be here for the trumpets and bowls?

No.

#1 Jesus didn't include anything like them in the signs before His return
and #2. Jesus says the sun and moon go dark after the Tribulation, so the Tribulation that we endure is over when the sun and moon go dark, and that's at the 6th seal.
So we are spared God's wrath
just not man's wrath.

Jamdoc said:

I wouldn't go that far, John and Paul saw spiritual visions as far as we know, Paul says he didn't know (and was kind of beating around the bush as to it being him that he was referring to), but Enoch and Elijah and Jesus were bodily taken to heaven. So it's not always the same thing but we do know there are bodily raptures to heaven and Paul does describe a bodily taking up after the resurrection, and Jesus said He will receive us to Himself in a place He has prepared for us. Jesus is in heaven, and He went to prepare a place for us. So.. where's He receiving us?
I'd argue heaven.

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I'd argue "in the air" since that is what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. If you think we'll be taken to heaven after meeting Him "in the air" then why will we even meet Him "in the air" in the first place? Why wouldn't we just be taken directly to heaven?

Spiritual Jew said:

I'd argue "in the air" since that is what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. If you think we'll be taken to heaven after meeting Him "in the air" then why will we even meet Him "in the air" in the first place? Why wouldn't we just be taken directly to heaven?

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To be visible.

Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

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What happens right after the 6th seal?

Revelation 7

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

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Seeing Christ in the clouds, realizing the gentiles were right, turns the remnant to repentance, beginning with the 144,000.

Jamdoc said:

To be visible.

Romans 11

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Romans 11:11 has absolutely nothing to do with believers being caught up to meet Christ "in the air" when He returns.

Romans 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Can you see here that Paul was talking about provoking his fellow Israelites who were alive back then to jealousy so that he could help "save some of them" and not about provoking Israelites in the distant future to jealousy?

What happens right after the 6th seal?

Revelation 7

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The final wrath of the Lamb is at hand at the sixth seal. Yes, we will be caught up at that point, but then the final wrath of the Lamb will come down and "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). Look at how it describes people at the sixth seal. They are so frightened by His coming wrath that they'd rather have mountains fall on them than face it. Clearly, the time of His final wrath that will come down on the day He returns (2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12) will be at hand at that point.

Seeing Christ in the clouds, realizing the gentiles were right, turns the remnant to repentance, beginning with the 144,000.

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It will be too late for anyone to repent at that point. Your belief encourages people to just wait until they see Jesus in the clouds and then they can repent. In the meantime they can just live however they want. That's just a terrible doctrine. No, today (now) is the day of salvation (2 Cor 6:2)! Any teaching that encourages people to put off their repentance until a later time is clearly false. God wants all people to repent today (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9).

Spiritual Jew said:

Romans 11:11 has absolutely nothing to do with believers being caught up to meet Christ "in the air" when He returns.

Romans 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Can you see here that Paul was talking about provoking his fellow Israelites who were alive back then to jealousy so that he could help "save some of them" and not about provoking Israelites in the distant future to jealousy?

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It has everything to do with it. Romans 11:25 was quoted and bolded for a reason but you missed it.
After the fullness of the gentiles come in, Israel will finally see, the spiritual blindness will be gone.

The fullness of the gentiles certainly was not back in the 1st century, because millions more have been saved since then.

To be honest I had not thought to use Romans 11 in my post until right as I hit reply, but that's what came to mind the instant I did. Replying to you actually taught me.

The final wrath of the Lamb is at hand at the sixth seal. Yes, we will be caught up at that point, but then the final wrath of the Lamb will come down and "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). Look at how it describes people at the sixth seal. They are so frightened by His coming wrath that they'd rather have mountains fall on them than face it. Clearly, the time of His final wrath that will come down on the day He returns (2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12) will be at hand at that point.

It will be too late for anyone to repent at that point. Your belief encourages people to just wait until they see Jesus in the clouds and then they can repent. In the meantime they can just live however they want. That's just a terrible doctrine. No, today (now) is the day of salvation (2 Cor 6:2)! Any teaching that encourages people to put off their repentance until a later time is clearly false. God wants all people to repent today (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9).

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The bible doesn't teach that it will be "too late" the bible teaches that they'll look on Him and mourn, and then there are 144,000 Israelites sealed.
If you stop trying to interpret everything as a symbol for something unconnected like merging the 2 distinct groups that John talks about into being the exact same thing, just saved Christians twice over, you'd maybe see what John was trying to tell us.

Now for Gentiles? as far as I can tell, it will be too late after the 6th seal, the bible does not make mention of people outside of Israel repenting after Jesus appears in the clouds, in fact Revelation gives several passages where people do NOT repent, but blaspheme God and curse God even though they know it's God.

There is ONE exception to this, and that is Israelites. First the 144,000, then the remnant after the Earthquake just before the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11

3 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

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so .. after the 6th seal, gentiles will no longer repent, but it appears that Israelites will.
so for Gentiles, now IS the day of Salvation, but among the Jews? Still spiritually blind.
They are as God repeatedly puts it, a stiff necked people.

You also do have to understand, not everyone alive today, even if the those seals started popping today, will make it to the 6th seal, in fact, billions of people will not. The 4th seal involves 1/4 of the people on the planet dying, there is famine and pestilence and war, followed by religious persecution. Yes, the dead saints in Christ will be in heaven.. but if they're a Jew in unbelief?
It'll be too late for them.

Satan goes after Israel first, THEN goes after the remnant of her seed, those who testify of Jesus.

and just to add to this, there's some spiritual things going on in this exchange.
first, right now, God has hardened the Jews to be spiritually blinded, to reject their Messiah, tno NOT EVEN READ the text we know as Isaiah 53, and in many cases they do not read Daniel as well, because it's "sealed"
But right now salvation comes mainly to gentiles.
In the end times, the reverse occurs. When the fullness of the gentiles comes in God will lift the blindness from the Jews... but will send strong delusion among everyone else.

2 Thessalonians 2

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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So, at the very least Gentiles, who try to wait until seeing Jesus in the clouds to convert? It's not going to work, because God is going to make them believe the Antichrist, they'll be swallowed up in deception.

Big_John said:

Amazing how some fight for their right to Tribulate..... Hope you don't think you are earning your salvation though suffering and trials????



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Nope!
Enduring tribulation is not FOR us.

Revelation 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

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Revelation 12

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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Enduring Tribulation is for 2 purposes. first and foremost, it is for Jesus, it is to be a witness. To endure persecution even to death in faith is a powerful witness to your faith.

It is more over, testimony that convicts and wins over others, perhaps the very people who did the persecuting.

Mark 13

9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

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Understand, that we walk in likeness to a God who let Himself be crucified, and apostles who let themselves be executed. Do we want to endure these things? Did Jesus want to die on the cross? No. He prayed for another way to be found the night before. But He did so obediently, He is our example. So yeah, of course I'd like to not wind up being persecuted, but if it happens, I hope that I can endure it obediently, for His glory, to be a witness and give testimony.

If I went by what I personally wanted? of course I'd believe in pretribulationism. Who doesn't want a get out of jail free card?
But I don't because scripture teaches against it, repeatedly. I don't see pretribulation rapture in the scriptures, and I instead see being persecuted, and giving testimony. AND.. Jesus does promise that not all will die.

Matthew 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

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Those days are shortened specifically so that there will still be Christians alive when Jesus returns to gather us to Him. If it went the full 3.5 years? We'd all die.
But it's shortened so we won't.

Big_John said:

Amazing how some fight for their right to Tribulate..... Hope you don't think you are earning your salvation though suffering and trials????
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What is most amazing, is how people believe in an actual removal from the earth to heaven, way beyond anything Captain Kirk imagined.

The Bible is clear: we must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Rev 13:10, Hebrews 10:36, +

We WILL be required to prove our faith: 1 Peter 4:12-13

keras said:

What is most amazing, is how people believe in an actual removal from the earth to heaven, way beyond anything Captain Kirk imagined.

The Bible is clear: we must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Rev 13:10, Hebrews 10:36, +

We WILL be required to prove our faith: 1 Peter 4:12-13

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No more amazing than taking John 3:13 so hyperliterally that you ignore all other scripture on the subject, most notably Enoch and Elijah, and believe that BELIEVERS will be the ones heading to bunkers and that's the "chambers" Isaiah was telling us to hide in from the wrath of God.

Jamdoc said:

No more amazing than taking John 3:13 so hyperliterally that you ignore all other scripture on the subject, most notably Enoch and Elijah, and believe that BELIEVERS will be the ones heading to bunkers and that's the "chambers" Isaiah was telling us to hide in from the wrath of God.

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You know very well that opinions mean nothing and objections are overruled by the truth of Scripture.
John 3:13 and many other verses, are clear and plain. We humans never go to live in heaven. Eventually God and heaven come to us. Revelation 21:1-7
Even if you can find some kind of scripture to support the 'rapture to heaven' belief; it would create a Biblical anomaly. That's impossible.
Enoch and Elijah were taken up into the 'heavens' the sky, the same a Philip was. Acts 8:39 Like John was; Revelation 4:1 and Ezekiel 3:12-15

We ARE warned to be proactive when the Lord strikes the earth with His fiery wrath. To simply take cover during the daylight hours of one day.

Paul said that people would believe fables, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, and Isaiah 29:9-12 tells us those who choose to believe false teachings, will be locked into them.

Big_John said:

No Christians will go through the Tribulation. None.. El Zippo... Not even those of you fighting for the right to Tribulate. Every Christian will be raptured....PreTrib.

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You are about as believable as the real John Wayne was!
However Revelation 12:14 does tell us that the faithful Christians will be kept in a place of safety, on earth during the 42 months of the Great Tribulation.

Big_John said:

No Christians will go through the Tribulation. None.. El Zippo... Not even those of you fighting for the right to Tribulate. Every Christian will be raptured....PreTrib.

Why.... God is Merciful. He will send Jesus to remove the Church, because we have things to do in Heaven during those 7 years... and God will not allow any of His Children to be on earth for His wrath to be inflicted on.... except the Tribulation Saints, who become saved after the Pre-Trib Rapture.

This is exactly how it is going down.


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You have no scripture for that position.
and your position belittles the brothers and sisters we have right now being martyred all over the world, it is a position that screams "I live in a first world country where I expect nothing bad to ever happen to me"
The fact that you cling to "the seven year tribulation" also shows that you do not understand the difference between the Great Tribulation, and the wrath of God, and that you disagree with Jesus.

while you have not actually specified this yet, the pretribulation position also does something absolutely ridiculous, claiming that the saints that are persecuted and beheaded throughout Revelation are second class citizens of heaven they call "tribulation saints" which you want God to have mercy on YOU, but you're okay with THEM being martyred

It's a selfish position.

keras said:

You know very well that opinions mean nothing and objections are overruled by the truth of Scripture.
John 3:13 and many other verses, are clear and plain. We humans never go to live in heaven. Eventually God and heaven come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

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God does come down to us, that is true, but there are also those that go up to Him, that is also true in scripture. Enoch and Elijah did, and to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord.

You are literally taking 1 verse and using it to wage war with all other scripture that disagrees with it.

Even if you can find some kind of scripture to support the 'rapture to heaven' belief; it would create a Biblical anomaly. That's impossible.
Enoch and Elijah were taken up into the 'heavens' the sky, the same a Philip was. Acts 8:39 Like John was; Revelation 4:1 and Ezekiel 3:12-15

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That's not biblical, and the examples you give are not all the same thing. John and Ezekiel were given visions, they didn't actually go anywhere physically.
Philip was transported somewhere else on Earth.
But Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily to heaven. We know this because on the mount of transfiguration account Elijah was standing next to Jesus (along with Moses)
Matthew 17

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

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Elijah had vanished into the sky in a chariot of fire hundreds of years prior. He was there with Jesus, and he will also come back as one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11... thousands of years later.

and Enoch? Paul is specific that Enoch was translated.
Hebrews 11

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

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So there's your "impossible" biblical anomalies.

We ARE warned to be proactive when the Lord strikes the earth with His fiery wrath. To simply take cover during the daylight hours of one day.

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It is unbelievers who cower in fear in rocks and caves and bunkers at the 6th seal, Jesus tells us that when we see the darkening of the sun and moon we're to look up.

Luke 21

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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If you seriously try to hide in a bunker or shipping container like you've said you're going to do, you'll possibly miss the rapture. Jesus had a warning regarding this.

Luke 17

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

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What did Lot's wife do? She looked back to her life in Sodom that she was leaving behind, and was killed.

Paul said that people would believe fables, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, and Isaiah 29:9-12 tells us those who choose to believe false teachings, will be locked into them.

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There's a lot of fairy tales that people believe, but believing in a rapture isn't a fairy tale, it's faith in the Word of God.

Jamdoc said:

You are literally taking 1 verse and using it to wage war with all other scripture that disagrees with it.

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There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture to heaven’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10

We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:
Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.
Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......

Jamdoc said:

That's not biblical, and the examples you give are not all the same thing. John and Ezekiel were given visions, they didn't actually go anywhere physically.

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Maybe.

Jamdoc said:

Philip was transported somewhere else on Earth

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Right.

Jamdoc said:

But Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily to heaven. We know this because on the mount of transfiguration account Elijah was standing next to Jesus

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The spiritual manifestation of Elijah and Moses were with Jesus then.
This does not mean they lived in heaven.
The belief of people consciously living in heaven, is a contradiction of Bible and cannot happen. UNTIL the new Heaven and earth come; Revelation 21 to 22

Jamdoc said:

So there's your "impossible" biblical anomalies.

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Even if Enoch never died, in no way does that mean any other people will also never die. UNTIL the end of the Millennium; at the GWT Judgment, those who remain alive then, whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will be translated into immortal spiritual beings. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56

Jamdoc said:

It is unbelievers who cower in fear in rocks and caves and bunkers at the 6th seal, Jesus tells us that when we see the darkening of the sun and moon we're to look up.

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Yes: we are told to; Call upon the Name of the Lard and we shall be saved. Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13
I have prepared a reefer container for my unsaved family members.

Jamdoc said:

you'll possibly miss the rapture. Jesus had a warning regarding this.

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The transportation of the faithful people to where Jesus is; 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:30-31, will happen at His Return. To Jerusalem.

Jamdoc said:

What did Lot's wife do? She looked back to her life in Sodom that she was leaving behind, and was killed.

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Luke 17:26-37 refers to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
We must trust in the Lord for our protection.

Jamdoc said:

There's a lot of fairy tales that people believe, but believing in a rapture isn't a fairy tale, it's faith in the Word of God.

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Yes, but not to go and live in heaven!

Big_John said:

Let's be civil and agree to disagree.

See you in the clouds.

1 Thes 4:15-17
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

John 14:1-3
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me to prepare a place for you? and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—52 the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Thes 1:9-10
9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

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I affirm ALL of those verses, and I affirm that there is a rapture and we'll be received to heaven. Your quoting of those verses isn't really arguing your point since we both believe in a rapture.

The difference is timing.
I believe we will go through the first 5 seals, the persecution and problems in the world caused by men, but are spared from God's wrath.
You have called the first 5 seals God's wrath (including the martyring of His own people), rather than understanding that while God is removing restraint/protection with the seals, He is not the one bringing the problems and persecution of the seals, He is sovereignly allowing men to do the wickedness that we have always wanted to do, the tower of babel proves that we have always wanted to have a unified mankind without God making our own utopia and just loving our sin.
The 5 seals are the results of letting man have what they think they want. Not God pouring out His wrath, that comes later.

It is consistent within the bible that God lets His people be afflicted by evil men, but will not Himself take action against the righteous. He will allow other agents to afflict them however, see the book of Job.

So does God let His people suffer tribulation and martyrdom? Yes.
Is God going to pour His wrath on His people? no.

Understanding the difference is key.
That is why it's key to agree with Jesus' timeline for what the Great Tribulation is and is not.

Spiritual Jew said:

No, it is not. It has several parallel sections (recapitulations) in it. If you read Revelation 6:12-17 you should see that the wrath of the Lamb is already at hand as of the sixth seal. How can the seventh seal, all the trumpets and all the vials follow that when Christ's return and His wrath is already at hand as of the sixth seal?

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That is like asking, "how can the Cross be at the same time as the birth in Bethlehem?"

Was not Jesus named all those names at birth, yet there was a process before the Cross could happen?

The whole event is the Second Coming. But it unfolds over days and months, not in a single instant. The Cross was not the same instant as the birth. You would call that ridiculous. Yet your view that all the judgments are viewing the same event is just as ridiculous.

Even the Atonement had three different components. The resurrection is not a different view of the same hours Christ was on the Cross. The death, burial, and resurrection were three distinct events of that week. The 4 different judgments in Revelation, Seals, Trumpets, Thunders, and Vials are 4 distinct events of the Second Coming. There are different angles because they are God dealing with 4 different groups of people, even if you deny there are 4 different groups.

To avoid the fact of these different types, you dwell on four angles of a moment in time, instead of rightly dividing how God is dealing with humanity. And these groups are living humanity, not even resurrected dead people. There are only two types of dead people. Those resurrected, and those who remain dead.

So the Second Coming will take time in the physical, because it is the end of the physical nature of sin and Adam's punishment on this physical creation. Jesus said this time will be shortened. So not 33 years this time, but not as short as a moment in time. This time God is dealing with all mankind over all the earth. Not just Galilee and Judaea.

The problem with stating symbolism and no application, is forgetting there is literally different events in chronological order, and not just a single thought, called the Second Coming. And according to both Jesus and John, the Second Coming happens first. Not after everything else falls into place. These judgments involve Jesus Christ being here on earth. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ the Prince.