Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Fervent · Dec 10, 2021

MMXX said:
Nonsense eh? When was the EOB you're referring to published?
The fact that words change over time is the whole point.
And which native Greek speaking scholars are you referring to? Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich? Those don't look like Greek surnames to me. I'm sorry that you're hearing crickets, but nobody (including you probably) can decipher what "Mid. (Aristoph., Vesp. 405; Pla., Protag. 324c; 3 Macc 7:3; ApcEsdr 1:11 p. 25, 4 Tdf.; Just., A II, 2, 9; 11; 16)" et al means.

DA addressed the usage in antiquity by referencing BDAG. David Bentley Hart threw some smoke by talking about the etymology which is actually irrelevant and then went on and gave an opinion of the usage in 1John, Acts, and 2 Peter. He's completely ignored that it has a unique usage within the Jewish literature that doesn't imply correction, except possibly on a corporate level, where it became used to refer to divine punishment in general because the lack of malice involved not because of what it implied about the receiver.

Fervent · Dec 10, 2021

Hmm said:
? He explicitly says that the meaning of kolasis changed during late antiquity (284AD - 700AD).

Or, more likely, given his credentials, making simple errors is something he doesn't do and you have misunderstood him (see the point above)

I did misunderstand from that snippet, though the purpose of injecting the etymology there is questionable as it is irrelevant to the question at hand. It may be illustrative for why it became used for divine punishment, as "pruning" the tree of Israel is what God's judgments were to do. Certainly this would be corrective, but it is not the individuals who feel the wrath that are under correction but God's holy people as a corporation. This is accomplished through the removal of wicked men from the nation, not through the betterment of those who are put to the sword. Just as a tree is pruned to make way for new growth, the tree of Israel was pruned so new growth could be grafted in.

Der Alte · Dec 10, 2021

MMXX said:
Nonsense eh? When was the EOB you're referring to published?
The fact that words change over time is the whole point.
And which native Greek speaking scholars are you referring to? Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich? Those don't look like Greek surnames to me. I'm sorry that you're hearing crickets, but nobody (including you probably) can decipher what "Mid. (Aristoph., Vesp. 405; Pla., Protag. 324c; 3 Macc 7:3; ApcEsdr 1:11 p. 25, 4 Tdf.; Just., A II, 2, 9; 11; 16)" et al means.

I certainly can and I wonder how many times I have to repeat this before maybe 1-2 of the UR-ites get it. I quoted from BDAG the sources referenced within the definitions are abbreviated but the full identification can be found in the bibliography. These are provided in all definitions so interested scholars can read further information. The only two I can recognize off the top of my head 3 Maccabees 7:3 and Justin Martyr.
If you are going to run with the big dogs maybe you should learn how.
The native Greek speaking scholars I was referring to were the staff of translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible which I have quoted a number of times. Odd that all the ostensibly "truth seeking" UR-ites posting here don't know about and do not refer to the EOB. If any of you guys are really interested in the truth the EOB is available free online.
http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf
The digital edition cost me $30. Maybe we will see some genuine scholarship around here from now on.
The 1952 edition of BAGD is also available to read free but is not downloadable.
Here is the definition of Kolasis. The Greek does not reproduce correctly

kovlasi"
kovlasi", ew", hJ punishment (so Hippocr. +; Diod. S. 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian , V.H. 7, 15; Dit., Syll. 2 680, 13; LXX ; Philo , Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos. , Ant. 17, 164; Sib. Or. 5, 388).
1. lit. k. uJpomevnein undergo punishment GOxy 6; deinai; k. (4 Macc 8:9 ) MPol 2:4; hJ ejpivmono" k. long-continued torture ibid. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. Of the martyrdom of Jesus PK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices ironically described as punishment, injury (
s. kolavzw ) Dg 2:9.
2. of divine retribution ( Diod. S. 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80[30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX ; Philo , Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos. , Ant. 1, 60 al. ): w. aijkismov" 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal damnation ( w. qavnato" ) Dg 9:2 ( Diod. S. 8, 15, 1 k. ajqavnato" ). Of hell: tovpo" kolavsew" AP 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 eij" ejkei`non to;n tovpon aiJ kolavsew" deovmenai yucai; katapevmpontai). ajpevrcesqai eij" k. aijwvnion go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 ; MPol 11:2 ( k. aij. as Test. Reub. 5:5, Ash. 7:5; Celsus 8, 48). rJuvesqai ejk th`" aijwnivou k. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. th;n aijwvnion k. ejxagoravzesqai buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. k. tino" punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3 , 4 , 7 ; 18:30 ; Philo , Fuga 65 aJmarthmavtwn k.) e[cein kovlasivn tina th`" ponhriva" aujtou` Hs 9, 18, 1. oJ fovbo" kovlasin e[cei fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 ( cf. Phil o, In Flacc. 96 fovbo" kolavsew" ). M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker

Fervent · Dec 10, 2021

Der Alte said:
I certainly can and I wonder how many times I have to repeat this before maybe 1-2 of get it. I quoted from BDAG the sources referenced within the definitions are abbreviated but the full identification can be found in the bibliography. These are provided in all definitions so interested scholars can read further information. The only two I can recognize off the top of my head 3 Maccabees 7:3 and Justin Martyr.
If you are going to run with the big dogs maybe you should learn how.
The native Greek speaking scholars I was referring to were the staff of translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible which I have quoted a number of times. Odd that all the ostensibly "truth seeking" UR-ites posting here don't know about and do not refer to the EOB. If any of you guys are really interested in the truth the EOB is available free online.
http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf
The digital edition cost me $30. Maybe we will see some genuine scholarship around here from now on.
The 1952 edition of BAGD is also available to read free but is not downloadable.
Here is the definition of Kolasis. The Greek does not reproduce correctly
kovlasi"
kovlasi", ew", hJ punishment (so Hippocr. +; Diod. S. 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian , V.H. 7, 15; Dit., Syll. 2 680, 13; LXX ; Philo , Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos. , Ant. 17, 164; Sib. Or. 5, 388).
1. lit. k. uJpomevnein undergo punishment GOxy 6; deinai; k. (4 Macc 8:9 ) MPol 2:4; hJ ejpivmono" k. long-continued torture ibid. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. Of the martyrdom of Jesus PK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices ironically described as punishment, injury (
s. kolavzw ) Dg 2:9.
2. of divine retribution ( Diod. S. 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80[30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX ; Philo , Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos. , Ant. 1, 60 al. ): w. aijkismov" 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal damnation ( w. qavnato" ) Dg 9:2 ( Diod. S. 8, 15, 1 k. ajqavnato" ). Of hell: tovpo" kolavsew" AP 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 eij" ejkei`non to;n tovpon aiJ kolavsew" deovmenai yucai; katapevmpontai). ajpevrcesqai eij" k. aijwvnion go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 ; MPol 11:2 ( k. aij. as Test. Reub. 5:5, Ash. 7:5; Celsus 8, 48). rJuvesqai ejk th`" aijwnivou k. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. th;n aijwvnion k. ejxagoravzesqai buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. k. tino" punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3 , 4 , 7 ; 18:30 ; Philo , Fuga 65 aJmarthmavtwn k.) e[cein kovlasivn tina th`" ponhriva" aujtou` Hs 9, 18, 1. oJ fovbo" kovlasin e[cei fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 ( cf. Phil o, In Flacc. 96 fovbo" kolavsew" ). M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker

You probably already recognize this, but he seems to play daft as an argument strategy. It's pretty clear he has no interest in actually pursuing where the truth lies so much as muddying the waters to pretend to have some ground to stand on.

Hmm · Dec 10, 2021

Fervent said:
Just as a tree is pruned to make way for new growth, the tree of Israel was pruned so new growth could be grafted in

Kolasis originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. Saying it means the "removal of wicked men from the nation" is quite an extrapolation. But if your starting point is ECT, I guess you have to make these distortions.

Fervent · Dec 10, 2021

Hmm said:
Kolasis originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. Saying it means the "removal of wicked men from the nation" is quite an extrapolation. But if your starting point is ECT, I guess you have to do these things.

There's no extrapolation, pruning is the act of cutting unwanted branches out of a tree. In the same way, divine judgment is the act of removing unwanted impurities from the tree of Israel. The issue is the OT judgment oracles are all collective, not individual. Both the refining metaphor and the pruning metaphor speak to the same thing, judgment against the wicked and their being cut off from Israel.

Der Alte · Dec 10, 2021

Hmm said:
Kolasis originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. Saying it means the "removal of wicked men from the nation" is quite an extrapolation. But if your starting point is ECT, I guess you have to do these things.

I have the ca. '81 print edition of BDAG, the most recent digital edition and I have link to the online '52 edition. Funny that I can't find any reference to "Kolasis originally meant the pruning of trees" anywhere.The only place I have ever seen it is here and on one other forum. Why do you supposed that is?
Here is the link to the online edition, again, maybe you can find that pruning reference. Click on the name kovlasi".
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker

ETA: I have checked 4 websites and I can't find one mention anywhere which shows DB Hart has any qualifications in Greek.
He earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Maryland, his Master of Philosophy degree from the University of Cambridge, and his Master of Arts and Doctor of Philosophy degrees from the University of Virginia.
David Bentley Hart | Closer to Truth

Ceallaigh · Dec 10, 2021

Fervent said:
That's funny, Louw & Nida has this:
κόλασις, εως f: to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering — ‘to punish, punishment.’
κολάζω: ἀδίκους δὲ εἰς ἡμέραν κρίσεως κολαζομένους τηρεῖν ‘to keep the wicked under punishment until the day of judgment comes’ or ‘… under guard, awaiting punishment on the day of judgment’ 2Pe 2:9.
κόλασις: ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον ‘these will [p. 490] be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous (will go) to eternal life’ Mt 25:46.
In a number of languages punishment is often expressed as a causative of suffering, that is to say, ‘to cause to suffer’ or ‘to cause to endure harm.’ In some languages, however, there are a number of different types of punishment, and clear distinctions must be made between various degrees of punishment as well as between physical versus mental punishment.

And the distinction in the NT word study dictionary is also instructive:
kólasis; gen. koláseōs, fem. noun from kolázō (2849), to punish. Punishment (Matt. 25:46), torment (1 John 4:18), distinguished from timōrı́a (5098), punishment, which in Class. Gr. has the predominating thought of the vindictive character of the punishment which satisfies the inflicter’s sense of outraged justice in defending his own honor or that of the violated law. Kólasis, on the other hand, conveys the notion of punishment for the correction and bettering of the offender. It does not always, however, have this strict meaning in the NT. In Matt. 25:46, kólasis aiṓnios (166), eternal, does not refer to temporary corrective punishment and discipline, but has rather the meaning of timōrı́a, punishment because of the violation of the eternal law of God. It is equivalent to géenna (1067), hell, a final punishment about which offenders are warned by our Lord (Mark 9:43–48). In this sense it does not have the implication of bettering one who endures such punishment. In kólasis, we have the relationship of the punishment to the one being punished while in timōrı́a the relationship is to the punisher himself.

What David Bentley Hart has committed is a well known lexical fallacy known as the etymological fallacy, where a words origin is mistaken for later usage. How the word came to be coined is rather immaterial to how it is used. And given David Bentley Hart's credentials making such a simplistic fallacious move is likely something he knows better than to do.

I know that Nida was an Evangelical Protestant. I'm not sure about Louw who was S. African, but I'm guessing he was probably Evangelical Protestant too. It seems likely when someone is an Evangelical Protestant, they're apt to stay within constraints of Evangelical Protestant theological views. Especially if their reputation, standing and support are at stake.

An etymological fallacy is insisting a word is invalid because the modern usage has changed from the original usage. Decimation originally meant a one tenth reduction. So an etymological fallacy would be to insist that a headline which said "The building was completely engulfed in fire was totally decimated" is incorrect, because more than ten percent of the building was ruined. Or that "gay rights" is a non sequitur because "gay" originally meant "happy" and "jovial" et al, and has nothing to do with sexual orientation. However, when it comes to the Christmas Carol "Have Yourself a Marry Little Christmas", and the lyrics "make the Make the Yule-tide gay", it is not an etymological fallacy to say that "gay" in this instance means "jovial" rather than carrying the more common contemporaneous connotation of the word "gay".

Fervent · Dec 10, 2021

MMXX said:
I know that Nida was an Evangelical Protestant. I'm not sure about Louw who was S. African, but I'm guessing he was probably Evangelical Protestant too. It seems likely when someone is an Evangelical Protestant, they're apt to stay within constraints of Evangelical Protestant theological views. Especially if their reputation, standing and support are at stake.

An etymological fallacy is insisting a modern word is invalid because the modern usage has changed from the original usage. Decimation originally meant a one tenth reduction. So an etymological fallacy would be to insist that a headline which said "The building was completely engulfed in fire was totally decimated" is incorrect, because more than ten percent of the building was ruined. Or that "gay rights" is a non sequitur because "gay" originally meant "happy" and "jovial" et al, and has nothing to do with sexual orientation. However, when it comes to the Christmas Carol "Have Yourself a Marry Little Christmas", the lyrics "make the Yuletide gay", it is not an etymological fallacy to say that "gay" in this instance means "jovial" rather than carrying the more common contemporaneous connotation of the word "gay".

It doesn't really matter who Louw and Nida are, as simply because they are the names on the lexicon they weren't the sole contributors to it. But it's quite funny how you go straight for an ad hom out of the gate. Ultimately, Louw & Nida's lexicon makes the short list for lexicons among a broad base of researchers.

Etymological fallacy is simply about confusing the original way a word was formed for its later usage. By the time the Bible was written kolasis had long been in use and had several different specialized uses. Within the Hellenistic Jews its usage was predominantly simply divine judgment, with little reference to its original understandings. So the notion that it started as "pruning" and came to mean punishment in that route is only informative if we're speaking to the original impetus for usage in the LXX and other formative texts. Etymology doesn't inform us of anything regarding its usage in Matthew, nor does it bring anything to the instances mentioned.

Hmm · Dec 10, 2021

Fervent said:
The issue is the OT judgment oracles are all collective, not individual. Both the refining metaphor and the pruning metaphor speak to the same thing, judgment against the wicked and their being cut off from Israel.

That is self-contradictory. You start by saying that Israel is judged collectively and not at the individual level but then go on to say that the judgement is on wicked individuals who are cut away from Israel.

In any case, "kolasis" had evolved to have the connotation of correction by the time the NT was written as DBH says in the quote I provided.

Fervent · Dec 10, 2021

Hmm said:
That is self-contradictory. You start by saying that Israel is judged collectively and not at the individual level but then go on to say that the judgement is on wicked individuals who are cut away from Israel.

In any case, "kolasis" had evolved to have the connotation of correction by the time the NT was written as DBH says in the quote I provided.

No, it's not contradictory. "Kolasis" is in reference to judgment against Israel, as a nation. Judgment oracles are towards Israel, as a nation. The wicked branches are cut off and cast aside for the good of the tree. Israel is pruned, the wicked are burned like the stubble they are.

And the question at hand isn't whether "kolasis" had a connotation of correction, it surely did in most instances as the NTWSD stated. But that is not why it was used in Matt. 25, but because it was the word the audience would have recognized for divine judgment, as the vindictive character found in timoria is unfit for th character of God. You're pitting a single scholars opinion against the vast majority of professional Koine Greek lexicographers. Now, certainly a case could be made but as you've admitted you don't understand the basic issues involved it's quite clear DBH is nothing but a token scholar and given what he's presented I'm guessing much of his reputation is from telling a niche audience what they want to hear rather than the quality of his scholarship.

Ceallaigh · Dec 10, 2021

Der Alte said:
I certainly can and I wonder how many times I have to repeat this before maybe 1-2 of get it. I quoted from BDAG the sources referenced within the definitions are abbreviated but the full identification can be found in the bibliography. These are provided in all definitions so interested scholars can read further information. The only two I can recognize off the top of my head 3 Maccabees 7:3 and Justin Martyr.
If you are going to run with the big dogs maybe you should learn how.

Owing a copy of BDAG doesn't equate to running with the big dogs. Like you said, you yourself don't know what most of the references are. Meaning that you only have a piecemeal understanding of the contents. This is what I mean by gish gallop. You throw out a bunch of complex indecipherable stuff you know nobody on a discussion forum is going to spend a copious amount of time decoding, and then [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-a-doodle-doo about how no one is willing to tackle it.

Der Alte said:
The native Greek speaking scholars I was referring to were the staff of translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible which I have quoted a number of times. Odd that all the ostensibly "truth seeking" UR-ites posting here don't know about and do not refer to the EOB. If any of you guys are really interested in the truth the EOB is available free online.
http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf
The digital edition cost me $30. Maybe we will see some genuine scholarship around here from now on.
The 1952 edition of BAGD is also available to read free but is not downloadable.
Here is the definition of Kolasis. The Greek does not reproduce correctly

kovlasi"
kovlasi", ew", hJ punishment (so Hippocr. +; Diod. S. 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian , V.H. 7, 15; Dit., Syll. 2 680, 13; LXX ; Philo , Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos. , Ant. 17, 164; Sib. Or. 5, 388).
1. lit. k. uJpomevnein undergo punishment GOxy 6; deinai; k. (4 Macc 8:9 ) MPol 2:4; hJ ejpivmono" k. long-continued torture ibid. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. Of the martyrdom of Jesus PK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices ironically described as punishment, injury (
s. kolavzw ) Dg 2:9.
2. of divine retribution ( Diod. S. 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80[30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX ; Philo , Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos. , Ant. 1, 60 al. ): w. aijkismov" 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal damnation ( w. qavnato" ) Dg 9:2 ( Diod. S. 8, 15, 1 k. ajqavnato" ). Of hell: tovpo" kolavsew" AP 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 eij" ejkei`non to;n tovpon aiJ kolavsew" deovmenai yucai; katapevmpontai). ajpevrcesqai eij" k. aijwvnion go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 ; MPol 11:2 ( k. aij. as Test. Reub. 5:5, Ash. 7:5; Celsus 8, 48). rJuvesqai ejk th`" aijwnivou k. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. th;n aijwvnion k. ejxagoravzesqai buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. k. tino" punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3 , 4 , 7 ; 18:30 ; Philo , Fuga 65 aJmarthmavtwn k.) e[cein kovlasivn tina th`" ponhriva" aujtou` Hs 9, 18, 1. oJ fovbo" kovlasin e[cei fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 ( cf. Phil o, In Flacc. 96 fovbo" kolavsew" ). M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker

What is the name of those native Greek speaking scholars again? Is "here's a link, go fish" the totality of your knowledge regarding this?

Der Alte · Dec 10, 2021

Hmm said:
*** In any case, "kolasis" had evolved to have the connotation of correction by the time the NT was written as DBH says in the quote I provided.

See my ETA in previous post. The alleged meaning "pruning" is DBH's unsupported opinion. It is not in any of three BAGD/BDAG I own or have access to. So pray tell where did it originate?. Just because some guy with a Philosophy degree says so, doesn't make it so.

Hmm · Dec 10, 2021

Fervent said:
You're pitting a single scholars opinion against the vast

I could give you countless others but would there be any point? I note too that you do not cite even a single scholar in support of your argument.

Fervent said:
DBH is nothing but a token scholar and given what he's presented I'm guessing much of his reputation is from telling a niche audience what they want to hear rather than the quality of his scholarship.

I suggest you take a look at his resume before calling him a token scholar and questioning the quality of his scholarship. These ad homs. are not very convincing signs of scholarship btw.

Fervent · Dec 10, 2021

Hmm said:
I could give you countless others but would there be any point? I note though that you do not cite even one scholar in support of your argument.

I cited two lexicons, which are essentially cumulative scholastic work. If you mean how the etymology may be useful, I presented an original theory that I am not saying is true but would render the usage of the word understandable given the OT usage.

Hmm said:
I suggest you take a look at his resume before calling him a token scholar and questioning the quality of his scholarship. These ad homs. are not very impressive signs of scholarship btw.

I didn't try to argue against his statements based on who he is as a person, so I made no ad hom. I made an assessment based on the arguments presented by those who are trying to borrow his credibility. Having spoken to janitors who barely graduated hs that gave more erudite understandings than some of my seminary professors I am not one impressed by academic accolades, especially as they tend to simply show how well the system can be worked rather than any kind of academic prowess. More likely to indicate privilege than achievement.

Der Alte · Dec 10, 2021

Hmm said:
I could give you countless others but would there be any point? I note too that you do not cite even a single scholar in support of your argument.
I suggest you take a look at his resume before calling him a token scholar and questioning the quality of his scholarship. These ad homs. are not very convincing signs of scholarship btw.

I tried to check DBH's resume, 4 different websites, this is the closest thing I could find. No mention of qualifications is Greek.

He earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Maryland, his Master of Philosophy degree from the University of Cambridge, and his Master of Arts and Doctor of Philosophy degrees from the University of Virginia.
David Bentley Hart | Closer to Truth

Ceallaigh · Dec 10, 2021

Fervent said:
It doesn't really matter who Louw and Nida are, as simply because they are the names on the lexicon they weren't the sole contributors to it. But it's quite funny how you go straight for an ad hom out of the gate. Ultimately, Louw & Nida's lexicon makes the short list for lexicons among a broad base of researchers.

The source matters a great deal. I'm sure you wouldn't appeal to material written and edited by Mormons for example, because you know that their theological views would color that material and that they would be taking a huge risk to stray outside of Mormonism.

Fervent said:
Etymological fallacy is simply about confusing the original way a word was formed for its later usage. By the time the Bible was written kolasis had long been in use and had several different specialized uses. Within the Hellenistic Jews its usage was predominantly simply divine judgment, with little reference to its original understandings. So the notion that it started as "pruning" and came to mean punishment in that route is only informative if we're speaking to the original impetus for usage in the LXX and other formative texts. Etymology doesn't inform us of anything regarding its usage in Matthew, nor does it bring anything to the instances mentioned.

Why even refer to the Septuagint for the meaning of a word, when the Hebrew is available?

And I find it interesting that apparently the foundation for ECT rests upon the last verse of the parable of the sheep and goats, when taking that parable as being completely literal is problematic ie performing an act of charity entitles one to eternal life in heaven. And taking the latter part of Mark 9:43-48 literally when the first part is obviously hyperbolically figurative. And that Isaiah 66:24 is supposed to be about eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, when it's about what Babylon did to Israel.

Those two examples don't seem all that concrete to be used as a primary foundation.

Hmm · Dec 10, 2021

Fervent said:
If you mean how the etymology may be useful, I presented an original theory that I am not saying is true but would render the usage of the word understandable given the OT usage.

Fair enough but "original" theories someone comes up with themselves tend to be a bit wayward because they do not get the reality check of peer reviews.

Fervent said:
More likely to indicate privilege than achievement.

This is just another ad hom.

Ceallaigh · Dec 10, 2021

Der Alte said:
I tried to check DBH's resume, 4 different websites, this is the closest thing I could find. No mention of qualifications is Greek.

He earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Maryland, his Master of Philosophy degree from the University of Cambridge, and his Master of Arts and Doctor of Philosophy degrees from the University of Virginia.
David Bentley Hart | Closer to Truth

Has the Greek Orthodox Church criticized or denounced his translation of Greek?

Fervent · Dec 10, 2021

MMXX said:
The source matters a great deal. I'm sure you wouldn't appeal to material written and edited by Mormons for example, because you know that their theological views would color that material and that they would be taking a huge risk to stray outside of Mormonism.

Source matters, sure. But there's a reason that Louw&Nida's lexicon is included by both Logos and Accordance and is used as a broad base lexical resource. Opening with an ad hom like that to try to poison the well is obvious chicanery.

MMXX said:
Why even refer to the Septuagint for the meaning of a word, when the Hebrew is available?

The septuagint is useful for a number of reasons, as often it reveals manuscript differences as well as bringing out details that have been lost to antiquity. There's also the fact that the LXX is more of a dynamic translation rather than a linear one which further brings out contextual details. It's also apparent that the LXX was a principal resource for Matthew since many of his scriptural references reflect it rather than a more linear Hebrew, for example the quotation of Isaiah 7:14 is clearly relying on the LXX not whatever Hebrew lineage the masoretes used.

MMXX said:
And I find it interesting that apparently the foundation for ECT rests upon the last verse of the parable of the sheep and goats, when taking that parable as being completely literal is problematic ie performing an act of charity entitles one to eternal life in heaven. And taking the latter part of Mark 9:43-48 literally when the first part is obviously hyperbolically figurative. And that Isaiah 66:24 is supposed to be about eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, when it's about what Babylon did to Israel.

It doesn't rest on that at all, it's simply that the UR crowd has made vociferous attempts to undermine it because it is perhaps the most explicit and undermines any contention that the character of Jesus is contrary to hell since "eternal punishment" came from his lips. Narrative context, direct context, and linguistic data all agree that "eternal punishment" is not only the best read but also likely half of the entire point of the 3-parable package.

Given the contortions and rationalizations you give to rescue UR, though, it's quite clear what the text actually says isn't all that interesting to you so much as what you can make it say.

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

May God be with you and bless you.

Well-Known Member

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Well-Known Member

May God be with you and bless you.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

May God be with you and bless you.

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

May God be with you and bless you.

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