Orthodox priest calls Pope a heretic

J Michael said:

So, if Catholics aren't "Catholic", what are we? I guess, besides heretics and schismatics, that is . And, if the answer is "catholic", could you please explain? This is something that Fr. Cleenewerck discusses in his "This Broken Body" which I found it very difficult to grasp.

Thanks!

(By the way, my official affiliation is with the Byzantine Catholic Church. I also spent a number of very interesting years in the Orthodox Church and outside The Church altogether--a long, complicated story, that.)

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I'm willing to defer to better answers, but my own would be that you are outside the Church. Orthodox are agreed that wrong teachings, including on ecclesiology and what the Church is, are heretical. I think it important to note that a) non_Orthodox are outside the Church as such, and b) that that does not limit God's grace, and c) that there is similarity in our beliefs, and we share a lot in common, and that within the absolutes, there is "relatively closer" and "relatively further away", and so Catholics and especially Eastern Catholics are quite close to us compared to the rest of what was Christendom and the world at large. We can't concelebrate, but we can appreciate each other and support what we have in common in these dark times, and we can hope for reunion, but that would have to be on terms as defined by the Orthodox Church, so we are not holding our breath. I myself will not call people outside of the Church heretics, whether or not it is technically correct, and I doubt most here will, either. We must not lose sight of either our differences or our commonality.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Is the Roman Pope your Patriarch, the head of your Church?

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Jesus Christ is the head my Church. The Roman Pope is, well...the Roman Pope, and I struggle mightily with the Roman concept of the Roman Pope, and my very Catholic priest/confessor is well aware of this.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

So come back home!

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Thanks for the invitation! It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility, but it is also an extremely complicated matter.

ArmyMatt said:

no, but the facts of history where we differ support Orthodoxy

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Ah...history, and how we use, abuse, interpret and misinterpret it, all to our own ends. But I'm no historian and try not to get into any arguments about history, fascinating as it is.

My own long-standing opinion is that there will never, ever be a reunion between Catholic and Orthodox Christians unless and until at least 2 prerequisites are met: 1) loss of historical memory; 2) complete willingness to forgive, with love. But then...I'm a nobody .

J Michael said:

Jesus Christ is the head my Church. The Roman Pope is, well...the Roman Pope, and I struggle mightily with the Roman concept of the Roman Pope, and my very Catholic priest/confessor is well aware of this.

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I am honestly having some trouble understanding Byzantine catholicism in general anyway, but this statement has me completely baffled.

So, at brass tacks, you practice Eastern rites and don't believe in papism. How are you not an Orthodox, then? I'm not making a statement, I am genuinely curious about a (short) list of reasons that make you choose to *formally* remain in allegiance to the Vatican?

J Michael said:

Ah...history, and how we use, abuse, interpret and misinterpret it, all to our own ends. But I'm no historian and try not to get into any arguments about history, fascinating as it is.

My own long-standing opinion is that there will never, ever be a reunion between Catholic and Orthodox Christians unless and until at least 2 prerequisites are met: 1) loss of historical memory; 2) complete willingness to forgive, with love. But then...I'm a nobody .

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I truly think you are mistaken about the issue of history, and more importantly, the issue of what dogma, aka doctrine, aka teaching is, for that is what divided people from the Church in history - the issue of what truth is, the question of Pontius Pilate. "Love" that dismisses that question, is not love, but rather, indifference. Love desires the betterment of the beloved, and hates error that leads to damage or destruction of the beloved. What the world calls "love" is actually "niceness", which is actually indifference. The Christians of history, until the day before yesterday, never accepted the idea that history was unknowable. And love demands that we know the truth of history, what really happened, and whether any given side is right.

Andrei D said:

I am honestly having some trouble understanding Byzantine catholicism in general anyway, but this statement has me completely baffled.

So, at brass tacks, you practice Eastern rites and don't believe in papism. How are you not an Orthodox, then? I'm not making a statement, I am genuinely curious about a (short) list of reasons that make you choose to *formally* remain in allegiance to the Vatican?

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Good questions! The history and position of Eastern Rite Catholics is odd and complicated, and I don't have time or energy to expound about it here. And I'm not being coy, either. If it truly interests you there are resources available that you could look into, such as
101 Questions & Answers on Eastern Catholic Churches by Edward Faulk, The Eastern Catholic Churches: An Introduction to Their Worship and Spirituality (American Essays in Liturgy by Joan L. Roccasalvo, CSJ, The Other Catholics: A Short Guide to the Eastern Catholic Churches ,this article Why Don't Eastern Catholics Just Become Orthodox? , and others from the same website, etc., etc. I think they can answer your questions far better than I.

J Michael said:

Ah...history, and how we use, abuse, interpret and misinterpret it, all to our own ends. But I'm no historian and try not to get into any arguments about history, fascinating as it is.

My own long-standing opinion is that there will never, ever be a reunion between Catholic and Orthodox Christians unless and until at least 2 prerequisites are met: 1) loss of historical memory; 2) complete willingness to forgive, with love. But then...I'm a nobody .

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many facts are to be sure, but something like Rome’s historical contradiction over the filioque is pretty clear

J Michael said:

Jesus Christ is the head my Church. The Roman Pope is, well...the Roman Pope, and I struggle mightily with the Roman concept of the Roman Pope, and my very Catholic priest/confessor is well aware of this.

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I think an issue is that if you are in communion with the Pope, you do affirm that position because you can approach the Eucharist with the Pope.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Who is your patriarch then? Which patriarch do you commemorate during liturgy?

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That would be the pope.

ArmyMatt said:

many facts are to be sure, but something like Rome’s historical contradiction over the filioque is pretty clear

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Agreed. Byzantine Catholics are not required to include the filioque in the Creed. Some say it, but many do not. My situation is such that I attend a Latin Catholic church, (unfortunately, but it is what it is as they say) and I never include the filioque when reciting the Nicene Creed.

Just curious, what is a heretic in Orthodoxy? Are all non-orthodox Christians, heretics according to the Orthodox belief?

J Michael said:

Agreed. Byzantine Catholics are not required to include the filioque in the Creed. Some say it, but many do not. My situation is such that I attend a Latin Catholic church, (unfortunately, but it is what it is as they say) and I never include the filioque when reciting the Nicene Creed.

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yes, but you do agree with the filioque by default because you commune with those who do.

Torah Keeper said:

Just curious, what is a heretic in Orthodoxy? Are all non-orthodox Christians, heretics according to the Orthodox belief?

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technically, all non-Orthodox Christians since they all believe in heresy to some degree.

ArmyMatt said:

yes, but you do agree with the filioque by default because you commune with those who do.

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Really? So, if I were able to attend a Byzantine Catholic parish, a parish belonging to a Church in communion with Rome, where they do not include the filioque (even though some individual parishioners may do so), then I am not agreeing with the filioque? But if, as a Byzantine Catholic, in communion with Rome, I attend a parish where everyone but me includes the filioque I *am* agreeing with it? So I can be in communion with Rome and both agree and disagree with the filioque? O..kaaaay...Interesting, to say the least....

And what about my private prayer life? If I don't include the filioque (and I do not) am I still agreeing with it or am I disagreeing with it? After all, it's only me and God, and I'm pretty sure He knows my heart and mind---even in the Latin church where everyone else is reciting the filioque.

J Michael said:

Really? So, if I were able to attend a Byzantine Catholic parish, a parish belonging to a Church in communion with Rome, where they do not include the filioque (even though some individual parishioners may do so), then I am not agreeing with the filioque? But if, as a Byzantine Catholic, in communion with Rome, I attend a parish where everyone but me includes the filioque I *am* agreeing with it? So I can be in communion with Rome and both agree and disagree with the filioque? O..kaaaay...Interesting, to say the least....

And what about my private prayer life? If I don't include the filioque (and I do not) am I still agreeing with it or am I disagreeing with it? After all, it's only me and God, and I'm pretty sure He knows my heart and mind---even in the Latin church where everyone else is reciting the filioque.

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being in communion with someone means you are fully one in faith with them. so even if you attend a Byzantine Catholic parish where no one uses the filioque, you still affirm it by being in communion with those who do.

So is it possible for us so-called "heretics" to be saved? Or is anyone who rejects Orthodoxy doomed to Hell, in your belief?

Not trying to start anything. Just curious. Lots of denominations say that other denominations are still saved.

Torah Keeper said:

So is it possible for us so-called "heretics" to be saved? Or is anyone who rejects Orthodoxy doomed to Hell, in your belief?

Not trying to start anything. Just curious. Lots of denominations say that other denominations are still saved.

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God can save whoever He wants. but the God that saves is the God known in the Orthodox Church. so it’s best to come to know Him as He is now.

ArmyMatt said:

being in communion with someone means you are fully one in faith with them. so even if you attend a Byzantine Catholic parish where no one uses the filioque, you still affirm it by being in communion with those who do.

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Well, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church considers Nestorius to be a saint so probably theological unity is not required just submitting to the Pope

Not David said:

Well, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church considers Nestorius to be a saint so probably theological unity is not required just submitting to the Pope

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it’s not. St Mark of Ephesus is a saint in many Melkite parishes. whatevs.