Partial preterist question

smittymatt said:

If the olivet discourse refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, what verses in the Bible refer to the actual, literal, physical, second coming of Jesus?

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The case can be made that he did. I have my own views on it that are de facto Orthodox but are not Orthodox as a whole. It's something I defer judgement on. Looking at the Olivet Discourse:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then to the account of the destruction of Jerusalem:

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

Now back to the Olivet Discourse:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that he says "he shall send his angels...and they shall gather". Not that they would return right away, only that they would be sent out.

smittymatt said:

If the olivet discourse refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, what verses in the Bible refer to the actual, literal, physical, second coming of Jesus?

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C'mon man. You know the Sadducees cannot answer that! lol

smittymatt said:

If the olivet discourse refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, what verses in the Bible refer to the actual, literal, physical, second coming of Jesus?

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Only on Revelation 21.
Blessings.

Matthew 24 speaks prophetically both of the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the events to take place leading up to the second coming. Some of the prophecies that were fulfilled then have been repeated since. Some will be repeated again near the end.

• There will be Christian persecution. Those who do not take the mark will not be able to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17), and a death decree (Revelation 13:15) will cause them to have to flee from persecution (Matthew 24:15-22).
• The abomination of desolation will be repeated (Matthew 24:15). Where before it was physical, the second time will be spiritual. The temple being the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 3:16-20), and the prophesied apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

The time of the end has been ongoing since the crucifixion, and prophecies of Matthew 24 are still pending (Matthew 5:18, Revelation 22:10, Matthew 24:29-31), and thus, relevant until we see Jesus coming in the clouds.

smittymatt said:

If the olivet discourse refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, what verses in the Bible refer to the actual, literal, physical, second coming of Jesus?

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None, Directly.
The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Jesus parousia would occur within the lifetime of His apostles.
(Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32,Matthew 16:28, Luke 9:27,Matthew 10:23)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that all things written would be fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
(Luke 21:20-22)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that as it was in Noah's day, So would the coming of the Son of Man be. The wicked would be taken in Judgement, and the rightesous would be "left behind" on earth.
(Matthew 24:37-41)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that salvation was not complete until Christ returned.
(Hebrews 9:28)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that The way to heaven was not opened until the Temple was destroyed.
(Hebrews 9:8)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that on the "new earth" Birth, death, ageing and sinners would continue to exist.(Isaiah 65:17-21, Revelation 21 & 22)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Christ is an invisible King, He was to come "in His kingdom" and that the coming of His kingdom would be "unobservable"
(1 Timothy 1:17, Luke 17:20)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Christ, Lord of the Vineyard, personally came back and took the kingdom from the Jews, destroying them at that time, and gave it to the church, who is the holy nation that bears it's fruits.
(Matthew 21:33-43, 1 Peter 2:9)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the Church is the "Israel of God" and the only heir to the promise of Abraham. (Galatians 6:16)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the true inheritance of Abraham is not earthly, but the better country of Heaven. (Hebrews 11:16, 1 Peter 1:4)

That said, The Old Testament Temple--which was itself designed to be a microcosm of the created universe--may demonstrate, by its destruction, that the created cosmos will be brought to a new consummation in our future. I have found no scriptural reason to rule it out, nor to deny that such an event would be the result of a future to us "parousia" of Christ.. Yet even that would not be an end of God's creation, but, rather, a new outworking of it. For sure, whatever changes God may have in store for the cosmos, the time and details have not been disclosed to men (Deuteronomy 29:29).

smittymatt said:

If the olivet discourse refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, what verses in the Bible refer to the actual, literal, physical, second coming of Jesus?

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Acts 1:9-11

smittymatt said:

If the olivet discourse refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, what verses in the Bible refer to the actual, literal, physical, second coming of Jesus?

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I'm not a Partial Preterist, but I do believe Jesus was referring to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in his Olivet Discourse. How could anything be more clear? During his earthly ministry Jesus was more focused on Israel, because they were still in the age of Law.

But after Israel rejected their Messiah, and God called for the end of the temple worship, the shift came to be placed on Gentile nations coming to Christ. Israel would be temporarily dis-fellowshipped until God is finished reaching out to Gentile nations.

Dan 7 and the book of Revelation are, I think, the best references to biblical eschatology. It is in Dan 7 that the Son of Man, coming with the clouds, is first mentioned. NT references to the same, including the Olivet Discourse, refer to that event.

But the Olivet Discourse focused mostly on the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Jesus was asked at that time about his 2nd Coming, and so Jesus sort of compared the two events. One event involved Israel's judgment. The second event involves the judgment of all nations.

parousia70 said:

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Christ is an invisible King, He was to come "in His kingdom" and that the coming of His kingdom would be "unobservable"
(1 Timothy 1:17, Luke 17:20)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Christ, Lord of the Vineyard, personally came back and took the kingdom from the Jews, destroying them at that time, and gave it to the church, who is the holy nation that bears it's fruits.
(Matthew 21:33-43, 1 Peter 2:9)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the Church is the "Israel of God" and the only heir to the promise of Abraham. (Galatians 6:16)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the true inheritance of Abraham is not earthly, but the better country of Heaven. (Hebrews 11:16, 1 Peter 1:4)

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That’s not what the Bible teaches, therefore preterism is wrong.

In Our Lord’s Prayer, the line “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven…”(Matt 6:10) is an explicit reference by Jesus Christ of the time yet future when a descendant of David will sit on David’s throne and rule Israel and the world from Jerusalem.


And Jesus said at the last supper:


Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.


The spiritual kingdom was already present when Jesus spoke of the future kingdom to come.


Christ’s future literal earthly and eternal kingdom was prophesied in both Old Testament and New Testament prophecies:


Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.


Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”


The New Testament and Old Testament unequivocally teach an unending kingdom on the earth, with Jesus sitting and reigning on the throne of King David, in Jerusalem.


In Acts 1 Jesus literally ascends bodily and visibly from Mount Olive, and the angel said this same Jesus will return in like manner as you have seen Him leave - meaning His literal return bodily and visibly back to Mount Olive:


Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.


Zechariah 14:5 is when Jesus fulfills the Acts 1 prophecy, and returns to Mount Olive with all the saints with Him - where He then remains, and the nations such as Egypt come into the gates of Jerusalem to worship Jesus in Zechariah14:16-19, who will be literally and bodily sitting on the throne of David, forever, as prophesied by the old and New Testament:


Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the THRONE of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


1Ki 2:45 And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the THRONE of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.


Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”


In Revelation 21, The New Jerusalem which is above, descends to earth to old Jerusalem, and God and the lamb dwell in it with men forever, and Jesus says this about that city in Revelation 3:12:


Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


It’s Literal fact in scripture that there will be a unending literal and physical reign of Christ on the earth, and not just for a thousand years.


Jesus is currently sitting in heaven at the father’s right hand UNTIL the time is right to return to earth:


Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David.The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Psa 110:2 The LORD sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule IN THE MIDST of your enemies!


Note that Jesus will not rule His kingdom from heaven, but on the earth, in the midst of His enemies.


He will return and land on mount Olive with all His saints per Zechariah 14:5, given earlier, where He will rule and reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David, which is established forever:


1Ki 2:45 And king Solomon shall beblessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.


And we shall reign and rule with Jesus in His kingdom, on the earth:


Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


The millennium period isn’t a temporary reign of Jesus - it’s the period where Satan is bound for a thousand years, then Satan is loosed for short time, and thrown into the lake of fire.


Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Zephaniah also describes Jesus ruling on the earth in Jerusalem:


Zep 3:14 Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!

Zep 3:15 The LORD has taken away the judgments against you; he has cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you shall never again fear evil.

Zep 3:16 On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem: “Fear not, O Zion; let not your hands grow weak.

Zep 3:17 The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.


There is no reason whatsoever to deny that the thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth in Revelation 20 is literal - from the OT to the NT, it is literal fact that He will return physically to earth and rule from the throne of David.


Isaiah 65:20-25 describes the millennial reign of Jesus on the earth and in Jerusalem and how radically different it will be, with peace on earth, long life, no weeping or crying, and with no wars, no death - even carnivores become herbivores and don’t eat other animals.

smittymatt said:

Thank you for taking the time to make such a detailed response with all the scripture references. Are you a full preterist?

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No.
You could say I’m an “extreme”, or “maximum” partial preterist.

I hold to the future coming spoken of in the historic creeds, and as I posted, I maintain the timing ad details of that future to us event, have not been revealed to us in any scripture.

This precludes me from adopting a truly FULL preterist position.

thx for asking

chad kincham said:

That’s not what the Bible teaches,

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Of course it is.

The New Testament and Old Testament unequivocally teach an unending kingdom on the earth, with Jesus sitting and reigning on the throne of King David

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Christ sits on the Throne of David today.

Acts 2:30-36
" Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him (David), that of the fruit of his (Davids) loins, according to the flesh, he would "raise up" Christ to sit on his(David's) throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The Above scripture says God promised David He would "raise up" Christ to sit on Davids throne, and the above scripture further points out that promise spoke of Christs resurrection where God did in fact "raise up" Christ just as promised.

If as you claim Christ does not sit on Davids Throne today, what throne did God "raise up" Christ to sit on if it is not the throne God promised David He would raise up Christ to sit on?

Or maybe you are saying Christ is NOT on any throne today...is that it??
Christ does not rule from a throne today?
Is that your contention?
If He does indeed rule from a throne today, what throne other than Davids did God promise to "raise up" Christ to rule from?

Lemme know K?
Don't forget to include Chapter & Verse!

In Acts 1 Jesus literally ascends bodily and visibly from Mount Olive, and the angel said this same Jesus will return in like manner as you have seen Him leave - meaning His literal return bodily and visibly back to Mount Olive

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Rather, the scripture says he would come in like manner as He went "into heaven".
How did Jesus enter heaven?
Hidden from their eyes by a cloud (Acst 1:9)

Besudes We have apostolic confirmation of the fulfillment of Acts 1:11 on at least two occasions. It happened to Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9) and to Stephen at His stoning.(Acts 7:54-56)

He will return and land on mount Olive with all His saints per Zechariah 14:5,

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Which is nothing like the way He left. All His saints were not in attendance at the departure.
he handed out no rewards or punishments at the departure either... demonstrably, even you don't don't believe His return will be "in like manner" as He left.

Isaiah 65:20-25 describes the millennial reign of Jesus on the earth and in Jerusalem and how radically different it will be, with peace on earth, long life, no weeping or crying, and with no wars, no death - even carnivores become herbivores and don’t eat other animals.

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Rather Isaiah is clear that He is describing the New Heavens and Earth time period, not the Millennium.
You have inserted the Millennium in that passage, in absense of any scriptural instruction to do so, solely to support your view.

You should adjust your view to fit the scripture, not adjust the scripture to fit your view.

parousia70 said:

Christ sits on the Throne of David today.

Acts 2:30-36
" Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him (David), that of the fruit of his (Davids) loins, according to the flesh, he would "raise up" Christ to sit on his(David's) throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The Above scripture says God promised David He would "raise up" Christ to sit on Davids throne, and the above scripture further points out that promise spoke of Christs resurrection where God did in fact "raise up" Christ just as promised.

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Agree. Acts 2:29-36 is very clear that Jesus was raised up to David's throne by way of His resurrection. It's very straightforward. Only doctrinal bias can prevent one from seeing what Peter taught there.

Rather, the scripture says he would come in like manner as He went "into heaven".
How did Jesus enter heaven?
Hidden from their eyes by a cloud (Acst 1:9)

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It's amazing how I can completely agree with you on one thing and completely disagree with you on another. No, it's not talking about Him coming in like manner as He disappeared after going into heaven. That makes no sense.

What Acts 1:11 means is that He will descend from heaven in like manner that He ascended to heaven. In what manner did He ascend to heaven? It says they literally saw Him ascend to heaven. He ascended to heaven visibly and bodily. He will descend from heaven in like manner which will be visibly and bodily.

Besudes We have apostolic confirmation of the fulfillment of Acts 1:11 on at least two occasions. It happened to Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9) and to Stephen at His stoning.(Acts 7:54-56)

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Wait, I thought you said that you think Acts 1:11 indicates that He would not be seen when He comes? How can those scriptures you referenced here fulfill Acts 1:11 in that case? Please make up your mind. Was He going to come visibly or not? It seems like you're trying to have it both ways.