Do you think that vaccination should now be mandatory?


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godleadyoursoul

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What is the narrative here?

Despite having the tools to fight this we are faced with the political problem of dissenters choosing to remain a part of the problem rather than the solution. This is prolonging the pandemic making boosters necessary as initial vaccine advantages wane and as new variants emerge from the Petri Dishes of the unvaccinated. Eventually as the German health minister said everyone will be vaccinated, have had covid or they will be dead.

What is the narrative? I don't know right now, turn the tv on and I'm sure you'll be up to date with the latest revised version.

I simply do not trust the system. I think many who have also dealt with big pharma and the medical industry their entire adult life have a similar sentiment. And since they are constantly chopping and changing info regarding the vaccine, it only helps reaffirm my position.
 
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JulieB67

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in Australia I can recall us being informed that we just needed to get the initial two doses, and then it became a third, and so fourth

We were told that in the US as well. Two doses- "fully" vaccinated. Except not lol

And what about people blaming the varients on the unvaccinated?? Ridiculous. Viruses tend to mutate due to copying/coding errors. This is nothing new.

And since anyone can catch it, vaccinated or not, there's always a chance for mutation.
 
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eucatastrophe

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What??

Direct quote from the WHO source:

"The median infection fatality rate across all 51 locations was 0.27% (corrected 0.23%).
Most data came from locations with high death tolls from COVID-19 and 32 of the locations had a
population mortality rate (COVID-19 deaths per million population) higher than the global
average (118 deaths from COVID-19 per million as of 12 September 2020;79 Fig. 3). Uncorrected
estimates of the infection fatality rate of COVID-19 ranged from 0.01% to 0.67% (median 0.10%)
across the 19 locations with a population mortality rate for COVID-19 lower than the global
average, from 0.07% to 0.73% (median 0.20%) across 17 locations with population mortality rate
higher than the global average but lower than 500 COVID-19 deaths per million, and from 0.20%
to 1.63% (median 0.71%) across 15 locations with more than 500 COVID-19 deaths per million.
The corrected estimates of the median infection fatality rate were 0.09%, 0.20% and 0.57%,
respectively, for the three location groups.
For people < 70 years old, the infection fatality rate of COVId-19 across 40 locations with
available data ranged from 0.00% to 0.31% (median 0.05%); the corrected values were similar. "

Listen, this was a very brief abstract and it supported what I said initially. How you can come on here and claim "serious" scientists dont agree boggles the imagination! Clearly you are not one yourself. You couldnt even read the whole abstract and get anything from it.

So, let me add some more quotes from the above source:

"The infection fatality rate is not a fixed physical constant and it can vary substantially across locations, depending on the population structure, the case-mix of infected and deceased individuals and other, local factors. The studies analysed here represent 82 different estimates of the infection fatality rate of COVID-19, but they are not fully representative of all countries and locations around the world. Most of the studies are from locations with overall COVID-19
mortality rates that are higher than the global average. The inferred median infection fatality rate in locations with a COVID-19 mortality rate lower than the global average is low (0.09%). If one could sample equally from all locations globally, the median infection fatality rate might be even
substantially lower than the 0.23% observed in my analysis.
COVID-19 has a very steep age gradient for risk of death. Moreover, many, and in some cases most, deaths in European countries that have had large numbers of cases and deaths and in the USA occurred in nursing homes. Locations with many nursing home deaths may have high estimates of the infection fatality rate, but the infection fatality rate would still be low among non-elderly, non-debilitated people. "
 
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Taodeching

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What is the narrative here?

Despite having the tools to fight this we are faced with the political problem of dissenters choosing to remain a part of the problem rather than the solution. This is prolonging the pandemic making boosters necessary as initial vaccine advantages wane and as new variants emerge from the Petri Dishes of the unvaccinated. Eventually as the German health minister said everyone will be vaccinated, have had covid or they will be dead.

Exactly. It is the unvaccinated who are prolonging this whole pandemic. it is the unvaccinated whom forced booster shots.
 
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godleadyoursoul

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We were told that in the US as well. Two doses- "fully" vaccinated. Except not lol

And what about people blaming the varients on the unvaccinated?? Ridiculous. Viruses tend to mutate due to copying/coding errors. This is nothing new.

And since anyone can catch it, vaccinated or not, there's always a chance for mutation.

Yep, and as I've mention, when the restrictions were lifted for the vaccinated there was almost instantly a number of breakouts. Unfortunately many Christians like to ignore facts such as that and continue placing their faith in the beast system.
 
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prodromos

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Africa holds 17% of the world's population where only 6% are vaccinated against Covid-19, yet they account for only 3% of the world's Covid deaths. In the northern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh which has a population equivalent to half of the United States of America, they have stopped Covid dead in its tracks by providing Ivermectin as a prophylaxis and early treatment, recording zero new cases since adopting the Ivermectin protocol. Japan has now abandoned vaccination for Ivermectin after seeing no long term benefit.
No lockdowns, no vaccine mandates and they are beating Covid.
 
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JulieB67

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Unfortunately many Christians like to ignore facts such as that and continue placing their faith in the beast system.

That's what gets me. Especially in this day and age.
 
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godleadyoursoul

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That's what gets me. Especially in this day and age.

Yep, they also ignore the fact that the rich & famous can seemingly do as they want while the common man can't even visit loved ones in hospital or attend funerals. This is the biggest con job in history.
 
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mindlight

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What??

Direct quote from the WHO source:

"The median infection fatality rate across all 51 locations was 0.27% (corrected 0.23%).
Most data came from locations with high death tolls from COVID-19 and 32 of the locations had a
population mortality rate (COVID-19 deaths per million population) higher than the global
average (118 deaths from COVID-19 per million as of 12 September 2020;79 Fig. 3). Uncorrected
estimates of the infection fatality rate of COVID-19 ranged from 0.01% to 0.67% (median 0.10%)
across the 19 locations with a population mortality rate for COVID-19 lower than the global
average, from 0.07% to 0.73% (median 0.20%) across 17 locations with population mortality rate
higher than the global average but lower than 500 COVID-19 deaths per million, and from 0.20%
to 1.63% (median 0.71%) across 15 locations with more than 500 COVID-19 deaths per million.
The corrected estimates of the median infection fatality rate were 0.09%, 0.20% and 0.57%,
respectively, for the three location groups.
For people < 70 years old, the infection fatality rate of COVId-19 across 40 locations with
available data ranged from 0.00% to 0.31% (median 0.05%); the corrected values were similar. "

Listen, this was a very brief abstract and it supported what I said initially. How you can come on here and claim "serious" scientists dont agree boggles the imagination! Clearly you are not one yourself. You couldnt even read the whole abstract and get anything from it.

So, let me add some more quotes from the above source:

"The infection fatality rate is not a fixed physical constant and it can vary substantially across locations, depending on the population structure, the case-mix of infected and deceased individuals and other, local factors. The studies analysed here represent 82 different estimates of the infection fatality rate of COVID-19, but they are not fully representative of all countries and locations around the world. Most of the studies are from locations with overall COVID-19
mortality rates that are higher than the global average. The inferred median infection fatality rate in locations with a COVID-19 mortality rate lower than the global average is low (0.09%). If one could sample equally from all locations globally, the median infection fatality rate might be even
substantially lower than the 0.23% observed in my analysis.
COVID-19 has a very steep age gradient for risk of death. Moreover, many, and in some cases most, deaths in European countries that have had large numbers of cases and deaths and in the USA occurred in nursing homes. Locations with many nursing home deaths may have high estimates of the infection fatality rate, but the infection fatality rate would still be low among non-elderly, non-debilitated people. "

Selective reading, this report was submitted in May 2020 so might be a little out of date now and was a composite of a lot of estimates and unfinished reports. Perhaps I should not have included it in my list since it appears to be the only one you read and was the least favorable to my position overall. But even then he noted:

0.57% in locations with > 500 COVID-19 deaths/million people - which is everywhere now (that would be 6 times higher than flu with a much higher transmission rate.

The WHO estimate of the time which I quoted from that report was:

Mathematical models have suggested that 40–81% of the world population could be infected,4,5 and have lowered the infection fatality rate to 1.0% or 0.9%.

As the BMA study, you ignored illustrated the variation between John P A Ioannidis composite study (average 0.26%), the Levin study (3.6%), Meyerowitz-Katz (0.68%) can mainly be explained by where the snapshots of the illness were taken. Early on in many places, it was young people who caught and carried the disease to others but they did not die of it. In the Summer months, young people get it more and again do not die of it. The more settled number is Meyerowitz-Katz which is about 7 times flu.

If you look at the graphs in the BMA study you can see what you are doing with the numbers. You take the lowest result from the lowest survey in the middle of Summer and called it definitive. The actual range changes over the year and by age range and is somewhere between 0,26 and 3.6 % depending on seasonal time and age group mix.

for Germany range from 0.756% [0.717%; 0.796%] by [5] to 1.687% [1.407%; 2.139%] by, reflecting the uncertainty regarding age-specific IFR.

Even if Ioannidis was right and it was only 0.26 % then that would still be 2.5 times flu and that with a disease that is not merely seasonal and far more transmissible.
 
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mindlight

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Africa holds 17% of the world's population where only 6% are vaccinated against Covid-19, yet they account for only 3% of the world's Covid deaths.

How would you know? Outside of South Africa hardly any African countries have proper health care systems. Also, the numbers will be lower because they have much younger populations and because loads of other diseases have already culled the populations of the kinds of people who survive in the Western world only because of pills and procedures.

In the northern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh which has a population equivalent to half of the United States of America, they have stopped Covid dead in its tracks by providing Ivermectin as a prophylaxis and early treatment, recording zero new cases since adopting the Ivermectin protocol.

This is fake news based on nothing better than Facebook posts - it is simply not true

PolitiFact - No scientific basis for claims of ivermectin’s success in Uttar Pradesh, India

Japan has now abandoned vaccination for Ivermectin after seeing no long term benefit.
No lockdowns, no vaccine mandates and they are beating Covid.

Again this is fake news

Fact check: Japan has not halted vaccines for ivermectin

As of Oct. 31, Japan has distributed more than 189 million doses since launching its vaccination drive in February.
 
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stevil

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We prayed and we got a vaccine, sorry to hear about your father.
Scientists worked hard and tirelessly, and developed and tested several vaccines.
They were able to do this due to their years of dedication to science and due to the advancements of many scientists before them.

We should give praise for the human ability to think and create, and for those that have dedicated much of their lives to the advancement of human kind.
 
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stevil

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And yet people rush to the internet to spread false information.
This false information leads to deaths if people believe it and use these treatment instead of things that actually work against Covid-19.

Please people, do some due diligence before spreading false information especially on things related to a deadly pandemic. False information contributes to deaths.
 
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mindlight

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Scientists worked hard and tirelessly, and developed and tested several vaccines.
They were able to do this due to their years of dedication to science and due to the advancements of many scientists before them.

We should give praise for the human ability to think and create, and for those that have dedicated much of their lives to the advancement of human kind.

Science is a tool that can be used to kill or to heal. Some of the innovations that made such a rapid development of a vaccine possible are truly encouraging e.g. the mRNA vaccines. I am fully behind using science to beat this Pandemic but it is not enough by itself. I would not be surprised if the same techniques were not used to engineer bioweapons in the near future.

Why are so many people anti-vaxers? Part of this is a reaction to the arrogance of atheist scientists who have suggested that science is the answer for everything while these people have watched family and friends die despite following all the scientist's advice. This distrust has grown so deep that even common sense stuff and stuff that is pretty much proven, as the efficacy of vaccinations, is treated with skepticism. People have been turning away from science for decades now and towards alternative medicines and quack remedies or indeed to a simple trust in miracles that mainly never come, because God does not usually work like that. This pandemic has polarised opinions and hardened some into tiny bubbles of delusion. Science has no answers on how to penetrate those bubbles. Merely shouting "I am right moron, just follow the science" is not working.

In the end, you have a brain and live in a universe that has intelligible rules because God created things this way. I have a brother who has an IQ on a par with Stephen Hawkins but who is an anti-vaxer. The statistical probability is that he is smarter than you even though he is completely wrong about this, as even the top one percent are dumb by his standards. It is not his ability to think that is in question it is the ability to trust that scientists are in connection with reality, with a universe that has rules and can be understood. It is an ability to trust that the people who tell us vaccines work are not deceiving us. It is all about faith in the end.
 
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stevil

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Science is a tool that can be used to kill or to heal. Some of the innovations that made such a rapid development of a vaccine possible are truly encouraging e.g. the mRNA vaccines. I am fully behind using science to beat this Pandemic but it is not enough by itself. I would not be surprised if the same techniques were not used to engineer bioweapons in the near future.
I was reacting to the post where it said thanks to prayer.
Quite frankly that is an insult to humanity and the people that have worked hard to make the vaccines happen. They put a lot of effort into this. They didn't just sit back and pray and then poof there was a vaccine. It comes because we did something rather than pray and beg to a father figure to give it to us.


Why are so many people anti-vaxers? Part of this is a reaction to the arrogance of atheist scientists who have suggested that science is the answer for everything
I don't know where this comes from. The religious beliefs or non beliefs of the scientists are irrelevant, as long as they stick to the method of being evidence based in their research and findings, they will come up with things that are proven to work.

This distrust has grown so deep that even common sense stuff and stuff that is pretty much proven, as the efficacy of vaccinations, is treated with skepticism. People have been turning away from science for decades now and towards alternative medicines and quack remedies
Most people on the planet use alternative medicines and quack remedies.
"alternative medicines" is just another way of saying non evidence based medicine.
For example over a billion people use Traditional Chinese Medicine, their argument is that it has been used for thousands of years and that it takes a holistic approach which can't easily be tested, that it is "natural" and so less harmful than "unnatural western medicine". The mistake people make, is in using the phrase "western medicine". It isn't western, it is evidence based, and developed by scientists all over the world regardless of colour or creed, culture or religion.

or indeed to a simple trust in miracles that mainly never come, because God does not usually work like that.
Either that, or there is no god at all.
The universe behaves exactly as you expect a universe would behave if there were no god.
It we want something to happen, we need to take action
If we lose our keys, we must look for them. If we have a pandemic, we must seek and develop a vaccine. Our destiny is in our hand and we must act. Sure, if you want to pray in your spare time, and if that helps you to feel better, perhaps to reflect, perhaps to distress, perhaps to find your inner strength, then do that. But don't expect to be given anything for free. Humans need to work to get things done.


This pandemic has polarised opinions and hardened some into tiny bubbles of delusion. Science has no answers on how to penetrate those bubbles.
In USA Trump has worked very hard to get his followers to distrust the government, science, media etc. He wanted them only to listen to him, his endorsed voices and media personalities. Some of that distrust was always there, but Trump used that and turned it up to full. Most of this distrust within developed nations is a USA thing. USA has it in spades. There are pockets everywhere but USA it has gone mainstream. Many of their rightwing media outlets are just nuts, and it seems even normal right wing people over there just exclusively listen to and trust those rightwing media outlets.

Merely shouting "I am right moron, just follow the science" is not working.
No, not working. Many people especially in USA shut off when they hear stuff on "MSM" they only listen to far right.

In the end, you have a brain and live in a universe that has intelligible rules because God created things this way.
Our brains evolved over millions of years, millions of generations. It gave us a survival and procreation advantage.

I have a brother who has an IQ on a par with Stephen Hawkins but who is an anti-vaxer. The statistical probability is that he is smarter than you even though he is completely wrong about this, as even the top one percent are dumb by his standards. It is not his ability to think that is in question it is the ability to trust that scientists are in connection with reality, with a universe that has rules and can be understood. It is an ability to trust that the people who tell us vaccines work are not deceiving us.
I agree that people (even smart people) can get caught up in nonsense.
There is alot of misinformation out there. A lot of conspiracy rabbit holes. Made up of half truths and thrown in with some pseudo science and nonsense.
People can't know everything. and often those people caught up in conspiracy nonsense have done lots of research and believe themselves to be smart and enlightened.
 
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mindlight

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I was reacting to the post where it said thanks to prayer.
Quite frankly that is an insult to humanity and the people that have worked hard to make the vaccines happen. They put a lot of effort into this. They didn't just sit back and pray and then poof there was a vaccine. It comes because we did something rather than pray and beg to a father figure to give it to us.



I don't know where this comes from. The religious beliefs or non beliefs of the scientists are irrelevant, as long as they stick to the method of being evidence based in their research and findings, they will come up with things that are proven to work.


Most people on the planet use alternative medicines and quack remedies.
"alternative medicines" is just another way of saying non evidence based medicine.
For example over a billion people use Traditional Chinese Medicine, their argument is that it has been used for thousands of years and that it takes a holistic approach which can't easily be tested, that it is "natural" and so less harmful than "unnatural western medicine". The mistake people make, is in using the phrase "western medicine". It isn't western, it is evidence based, and developed by scientists all over the world regardless of colour or creed, culture or religion.


Either that, or there is no god at all.
The universe behaves exactly as you expect a universe would behave if there were no god.
It we want something to happen, we need to take action
If we lose our keys, we must look for them. If we have a pandemic, we must seek and develop a vaccine. Our destiny is in our hand and we must act. Sure, if you want to pray in your spare time, and if that helps you to feel better, perhaps to reflect, perhaps to distress, perhaps to find your inner strength, then do that. But don't expect to be given anything for free. Humans need to work to get things done.



In USA Trump has worked very hard to get his followers to distrust the government, science, media etc. He wanted them only to listen to him, his endorsed voices and media personalities. Some of that distrust was always there, but Trump used that and turned it up to full. Most of this distrust within developed nations is a USA thing. USA has it in spades. There are pockets everywhere but USA it has gone mainstream. Many of their rightwing media outlets are just nuts, and it seems even normal right wing people over there just exclusively listen to and trust those rightwing media outlets.


No, not working. Many people especially in USA shut off when they hear stuff on "MSM" they only listen to far right.


Our brains evolved over millions of years, millions of generations. It gave us a survival and procreation advantage.


I agree that people (even smart people) can get caught up in nonsense.
There is alot of misinformation out there. A lot of conspiracy rabbit holes. Made up of half truths and thrown in with some pseudo science and nonsense.
People can't know everything. and often those people caught up in conspiracy nonsense have done lots of research and believe themselves to be smart and enlightened.

Prayer remains a key because man for all his efforts has no control over the development of this virus. Omicron may well end up being a blessing in disguise for example. It appears to grow seventy times faster in bronchial tissue and ten times slower in lung tissue. This makes it more transmissible but so far less deadly. If enough of the anti-vaxers catch this milder version it may well end this pandemic. If on the other hand the next version keeps Omicrons effectiveness with bronchial tissue but becomes more dangerous with lung tissue then the virus becomes more deadly and keeps its high reproduction rate. Add in a capacity to bypass existing vaccines and this is far from over. Since these features are outside mankind's control prayer remains a crucial component of the fight against corona.

Omicron Propagates 70 Times Faster than Delta in Bronchi: Study

China is the rising force right now and its approach to medicine is in practice a mix of this ancient holistic approach and evidence-based medicine. I do think that medicine does need to be integrated into a wider worldview and approach to life as science only goes so far. But I agree that much of the ancient Chinese approach is bunkum.

Defeating Trump's chances of reelection in 2024 is crucial for the survival of democracy in the USA. His demagoguery and misuse of technology for his own narcissistic ends cannot be allowed to win. He is someone who uses science for evil purposes. That he has deceived so large a portion of the American church into supporting his egotism and his "Big Lie" is shameful from the perspective of the global church.

Regarding the evolution of the brain, I think you are kidding yourself as you are about the non-existence of God. But that is a whole other discussion. You do not have forever to come to your senses.
 
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Tanj

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This is fake news based on nothing better than Facebook posts - it is simply not true

PolitiFact - No scientific basis for claims of ivermectin’s success in Uttar Pradesh, India

Actually it's a bit more nuanced than that.

Fact 1: People with underlying conditions do worse with COVID
Fact 2: Having intestinal worms counts as an underlying condition
Fact 3: India has a high level of intestinal worm infections (this article A study of prevalence of intestinal worm infestation and efficacy of anthelminthic drugs - PubMed says about 50%)
Fact 4: Ivermectin is an excellent deworming agent

Conclusion: Ivermectin use in high worm areas may lead to lowering severity of symptoms.

Note: The part about lowering incidence is, obviously, baloney.
 
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stevil

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Since these features are outside mankind's control prayer remains a crucial component of the fight against corona.
Prayer has no value, other than what therapeutic value a person gets from introspection. They could write in a diary or talk to their psychiatrist or best friend. It would be no different as long as the psychiatrist and best friend don't talk back.

Humans can make a difference, they do this by developing vaccines, developing drugs to help the already sick, but tracking the disease, wearing masks, social distancing etc.
We can't control everything, but what we do matters.
 
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mindlight

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Prayer has no value, other than what therapeutic value a person gets from introspection. They could write in a diary or talk to their psychiatrist or best friend. It would be no different as long as the psychiatrist and best friend don't talk back.

Humans can make a difference, they do this by developing vaccines, developing drugs to help the already sick, but tracking the disease, wearing masks, social distancing etc.
We can't control everything, but what we do matters.

How can science measure the miraculous when by very definition miracles are an exception to the rule rather than the standard pattern!?

If there are any examples of prayer-based healings, then the notion that prayer is ineffective is overthrown.

There are a great many examples:
Ten healing miracles | Is there a God?

Prayer does have proven psychological benefits and is the most common companion for evidence-based medicine for sick people. For those who die alone in this covid crisis with family and friends barred from meeting with them prayer has meant these people were not alone at the moment of their passing.
 
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stevil

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How can science measure the miraculous when by very definition miracles are an exception to the rule rather than the standard pattern!?
Depends on what the prayer claim is.
If the claim is that prayer can result in a person miraculously being cured of cancer, then we could do a statistical analysis on that.

If this type of prayer is answered by the Christian god then we would find that Christians have a statistical advantage when it comes to being cured of cancer.
Of if the Muslim god was real then we would find that Muslims have the statistical advantage.

You would have statistic that would say
If you have stage 4 skin cancer you have a 5% chance of living beyond three years
But if you have stage 4 skin cancer and you are a Christian then you have a 6% chance of living beyond three years.

But we don't have this difference. It's not a thing.
 
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