The real rapture that makes sense

Clare73

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well ... evidentially you believe there is something immortal about us .... His Word says
only God is immortal ... there is nothing immortal about us
until Jesus returns and THEN we are given new bodies we receive the gift of immortality THEN.
Our spirits are immortal (Luke 20:38), not our natural physical bodies.
However, our spiritual physical bodies at the resurrection will be immortal.
God’s people have suffered injustice and death for their faithfulness to the gospel. They cry out to God, asking Him to step in and to vindicate them. T

hese texts concern the injustice done here on earth; they are not saying anything about the state of the dead. After all, these people do not appear to be enjoying the bliss of heaven.
 
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1Tonne

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Let's begin with what God told Miriam: he speaks to the prophets in riddles (dark sayings), not clearly, as he speaks to Moses face to face (Numbers 12:8).
So we have God's own rule from God's own "mouth" regarding prophecy--it is riddle, it is figurative (dark sayings), it is not literal. And being figurative and not literal, means it can be understood in more than one way; i.e., prophetic riddles are subject to more than one interpretation.
So the rule for correct interpretation of prophetic riddles is that the interpretation must be in agreement with NT teaching, the NT being God's completion of the OT, and its teaching being the light in which all Scripture is to be understood.

And then, in light of the NT, let's remember that any NT spiritual principle applies to all Christians for all times--immoral teaching, divine consequences of sin, etc.

This is where a lot of mis teachings about prophecy can start. It all comes down to ones own interpretation of the prophecies because they could mean nearly anything. With a prophecy, it is best to keep to the actual meaning if possible. The reason being is that God may not have revealed everything within the prophecy. The prophecy may be correct but something may be hidden. A good example is Rev 16:12.
Rev 16:12
"Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared."
It is not revealed who the Kings are (making this riddle not clearly seen) but we can presume that the Euphrates river will actually dry up.
A literal interpretation would be that the Euphrates is going to dry up so that someone/some country from the East is may possibly cross where the river was.
If I was to take it as figurative, I could say that the angel is a fallen angel pouring out evil on people of the Euphrates and so Gods living waters (his word) could no longer be told there. This would then make way for other eastern beliefs to come into the land.

In saying this, there are some prophecies that you can read that are figurative. But you will recognise them because they seem very sci-fi. A good example is the woman who rode the beast in Rev 17.

So where possible, try not to interpret it as figurative.
 
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Clare73

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But there is 2 appearances. The first with the Martyrs where he comes to reign for 1000 years and then the second in the clouds and we who are left over will go to meet him in the air.
Not according to authoritative NT teaching which is the light in which all Scripture is to be understood.

Peter tells us in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything," which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness.
There is no appearing of Christ prior to his coming to restore all things (2 Peter 3:13) at the end of time.

Likewise, Hebrews 9:27-28 teaches there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming in judgment, for Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between. Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, at which judgment he will "bring salvation."
So there are not two appearances of Christ before the one and only final judgment.
There is only his one appearing for the rapture and final judgment.

Also note that Jesus "brings salvation" when he appears (Hebrews 9:27-28) and
he "brings salvation" when he is revealed (1 Peter 1:5, 13).
So his appearing and his revealing are the same thing; i.e., his coming in judgment (Hebrews 9:27-28; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10), and not two separate events.

Therefore, there can be no appearing for the rapture separate from his revealing at the judgment, because the rapture and the judgment are concurring events.
The perishable will become imperishable. Those who are left (not martyrs) then go to the GWT and those who repented and believed will go to be with him in Glory.
 
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1Tonne

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That interpretation of 4:15 is contrary to authoritative NT teaching (as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly, Numbers 12:8) which presents one and only one rapture--in the last day, at the end of time.

I believe that there is the first resurrection of the dead martyrs and then only one rapture at the end of the 1000 years that will raise both the non believers and believers.
 
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1Tonne

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Judge means to pronounce judgment, as well as to evaluate.

The saints will be not be judged (pronounced condemned), but they will be judged (evaluated). . .both sheep and goats are evaluated, only the goats are condemned.

You are onto it with this. This we can agree on. :)
 
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1Tonne

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But we can realize that prophecy is given in riddles, and not cleary, and is not to be taken literally, the judge of all interpretation of prophetic riddles being it must in agreement with authoritative NT teaching, which is the light in which all Scripture is to be understood.

Or maybe it's taking God at his word (dark sayings) in Numbers 12:8, as explained in post #94, above.

So I am to make my own interpretation of prophetic riddles with my understanding of authoritative NT teachings.
Personally, I like to use one scripture to back other scriptures. That way I do not have to use my own understanding. The scripture will talk for itself.
 
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Clare73

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This is where a lot of mis teachings about prophecy can start. It all comes down to ones own interpretation of the prophecies because they could mean nearly anything.
However, there are boundaries to interpretation, and those boundaries are authoritative (governing) NT teaching with which they must not be in disagreement if they are not to be incorrect.
With a prophecy, it is best to keep to the actual meaning if possible. The reason being is that God may not have revealed everything within the prophecy. The prophecy may be correct but something may be hidden. A good example is Rev 16:12.
Rev 16:12
"Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared."
It is not revealed who the Kings are (making this riddle not clearly seen) but we can presume that the Euphrates river will actually dry up.
A literal interpretation would be that the Euphrates is going to dry up so that someone/some country from the East is may possibly cross where the river was.
If I was to take it as figurative, I could say that the angel is a fallen angel pouring out evil on people of the Euphrates and so Gods living waters (his word) could no longer be told there. This would then make way for other eastern beliefs to come into the land.

In saying this, there are some prophecies that you can read that are figurative. But you will recognise them because they seem very sci-fi. A good example is the woman who rode the beast in Rev 17.

So where possible, try not to interpret it as figurative.
The only Biblical rule of measure is whether the interpretation is in disagreement with authoritative NT teaching which is the light in which all Scripture is to be understood.

Much interpretation here has presented more than one resurrection, more than one rapture, more than one second coming and more than one judgment, all four of which are contradictory to authoritative NT teaching by which all Scripture is to be understood, which teaching presents only one of each event, all four in the last day at the end of time, and, therefore, making much interpretation here necessarily incorrect.
 
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Clare73

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I believe that there is the first resurrection of the dead martyrs and then only one rapture at the end of the 1000 years that will raise both the non believers and believers.
That would be in disagreement with authoritative NT teaching which presents only one resurrection in the last day at the end of time.
Any prophetic riddle speaking of another resurrection is referring to something other than the one and only physical resurrection of all mankind in the last day at the end of time.
 
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1Tonne

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However, there are boundaries to interpretation, and those boundaries are authoritative NT teaching with which they must not be in disagreement if they are not to be incorrect.

The only Biblical rule of measure is whether the interpretation is in disagreement with authoritative NT teaching which is the light in which all Scripture is to be understood.

Much interpretation here has presented more than one resurrection, more than one rapture, more than one second coming and more than one judgment, all four of which are contradictory to authoritative NT teaching by which all Scripture is to be understood, which presents only one of each event, all four in the last day at the end of time, and, therefore, making much interpretation here necessarily incorrect.

This begs the question. Who is the authoritative teacher of the NT that you are talking about. Can you tell me who gives the teaching? Because in Revelation 20:4 it says that "this is the first resurrection". This implies there is a second resurrection. The second resurrection is when Jesus comes in the clouds after the 1000 years and in the twinkling of the eye everyone who remains on earth is snatched up (to be judged)

1 x Resurrection of the martyrs (Rev 20:4 does imply these people are judged)
then after the 1000 years. (This is the second coming or second return to earth)
1 x Rapture
that takes everyone to meat with Jesus in the air at the last trumpet (To go to judgement). This is not a second coming as Jesus does not return to earth.
This all lines up with your authoritative NT teaching.
 
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Clare73

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Who is this authority that teaches all this?
The teaching of NT revelation is that authority, which revelation is completion of the incomplete OT revelation, and the light in which all Scripture is to be understood.
This is a fundamental principle in the interpretation of Scripture.

It is in the revelation of apostolic NT teaching that we learn the OT revelation regarding sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, etc. is all abolished. (Ephesians 2:15)

It is in the revelation of apostolic NT teaching that we learn the OT Mosaic covenant is obsolete. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is in the revelation of apostolic NT teaching that we learn the righteousness imputed to Abraham by faith is likewise imputed to all those of faith in Christ (Romans 4:3, Romans 5:18-19).

It is in the revelation of apostolic NT teaching that we learn that righteousness is from God (Romans 3:21) by faith (Romans 1:17, 3:22, 9:30), apart from faith's works/law keeping. (Romans 4:5, 13).

It is in the revelation of apostolic NT teaching that we learn that all those in Christ are the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29).

It is in the revelation of apostolic NT teaching that we learn the OT Mosaic law was not given for righteousness, but to reveal sin (Romans 3:20, 7:7).

It is in the revelation of apostolic NT teaching that we learn God has cut off Israel from the one olive tree of his people (Romans 11:17, 19), and only a remnant are being saved (Romans 11:1-5).

Etc., etc., etc.

As in the above, where the OT incomplete revelation is correctly understood only in the light of the complete NT revelation, so all Scripture is to be understood in the light of authoritative apostolic NT teaching, and any understanding of Scripture not in agreement with NT apostolic teaching is necessarily incorrect, as is much interpretation of prophetic riddles being presented here.
 
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Clare73

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So I am to make my own interpretation of prophetic riddles with my understanding of authoritative NT teachings.
You are to interpret prophetic riddles, which God said are not spoken clearly, in a way that is not in disagreement with NT teaching.
There is more than one way to interpret a prophetic riddle, but the only way to know if it can be correct is if it does not disagree with NT teaching, which is authoritative in understanding all Scripture, as in the examples I previously presented (post #114).
Personally, I like to use one scripture to back other scriptures. That way I do not have to use my own understanding. The scripture will talk for itself.
That, indeed, is sound practice. . .but it must include examination of interpretation that it not disagree with authoritative apostolic NT teaching.

That part seems to be left out in a lot of interpretation here of prophetic riddles, not spoken clearly.
 
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1Tonne

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You are to interpret prophetic riddles, which God said are not spoken clearly, in a way that is not in disagreement with NT teaching.
There is more than one way to interpret a prophetic riddle, but the only way to know if it can be correct is if it does not disagree with NT teaching, which is authoritative in understanding all Scripture, as in the examples I previously presented (post #114).

That, indeed, is sound practice. . .but it must include examination of interpretation that it not disagree with authoritative NT teaching.

That part seems to be left out in a lot of interpretation here of prophetic riddles, not spoken clearly.

So I am to make my own interpretation of prophetic riddles with my understanding of authoritative NT teachings.

Sorry. I worded this sentence wrong. It was meant to say:
"So am I to make my own interpretation of prophetic riddles with my understanding of authoritative NT teachings?" It was meant to be a question.
I use verses to confirm other verses as stated. So not my own interpretation.
 
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Clare73

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This begs the question. Who is the authoritative teacher of the NT that you are talking about.
The words themselves of the apostles, as in the examples of post #114: the words of the NT teaching
(as distinct from prophetic riddles not spoken clearly, whose meaning is not certain because they are riddles)
are the authority that govern understanding of all Scripture.
Those authoritative (governing) words of the apostles do not allow for more than one resurrection, one rapture, one second coming and one judgment--of all mankind in the last day at the end of time,
Can you tell me who gives the teaching?
The writers of the NT teaching (as distinct from riddles), all of them apostles, except for Luke and Jude.
Because in Revelation 20:4 it says that "this is the first resurrection". This implies there is a second resurrection. The second resurrection is when Jesus comes in the clouds after the 1000 years and in the twinkling of the eye everyone who remains on earth is snatched up (to be judged)
Yes. . .that works; i.e., does not disagree with NT teaching, if you interpret the first resurrection of the riddle to be the spiritual new birth (resurrection from spiritual death) into eternal life of all the saints when they come to faith. . .the second resurrection being the physical resurrection of their bodies in the last day at the end of time. That agrees with only one physical resurrection of all mankind.
So that would all be in agreement with authoritative (governing) NT teaching.
1 x Resurrection of the martyrs (Rev 20:4 does imply these people are judged)
then after the 1000 years. (This is the second coming or second return to earth)
1 x Rapture
that takes everyone to meat with Jesus in the air at the last trumpet (To go to judgement). This is not a second coming as Jesus does not return to earth.
Right. . .

However, authoritative NT teaching in Acts 3:21 is that "he must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything," which is the new heavens and new earth of 2 Peter 3:10-13.
This all lines up with your authoritative NT teaching.
Almost, except for him remaining in "the third heaven" where he resides.

So the second resurrection of your interpretation would actually be the first physical resurrection when he actually comes to earth in the one and only time he leaves heaven, for the one and only rapture at the one and only physical resurrection for the one and only judgment of all mankind in the sheep and goat judgment in the last day, at the end of time.

You done good!
 
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Clare73

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Sorry. I worded this sentence wrong. It was meant to say:
"So am I to make my own interpretation of prophetic riddles with my understanding of authoritative NT teachings?"
If your understanding of them literally is not in agreement with NT teaching, that seems to be the only alternative, for prophetic riddles are not given clearly and, therefore, are not necessarily literal.

Daniel 2 is a good example. Daniel had to interpret that riddle. None of it was literal.
We don't have a Daniel to interpret Revelation for us.

Speaking of which. . .I see Daniel as the sum of prophecy for the OT as I see Revelation as the sum of prophecy for the NT, and I see many parallels between the structures of their visions.
It was meant to be a question.
I use verses to confirm other verses as stated. So not my own interpretation.
Good practice. . .but they would need to be verses other than riddles, which are not certain in the first place.
 
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Clare73

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Our appearance with him in glory, will be by Jesus "with all the saints", being brought before God the Father...
1Th 3:13 KJV To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

When Jesus comes with all the saints, before God the Father, concerns ALL of them that have believed the gospel, and not just the dead in Christ,

2Th 1:10 KJV When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The glorification and admiration of "all them that believe" [before God the FATHER, the Lord] is not limited to just the dead in Christ, but will include those who are alive and remain unto the coming of Jesus with all the saints,

1Th 4:14-17 KJV 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also
which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This scripture is so misunderstood.
When Paul says that God will bring WITH Jesus those who are "asleep in Jesus/ THE dead in Christ", are they descending first or rising first? It's either one or the other.
The fact is, Jesus descends from heaven [only] with his holy angels. He is then joined by the dead in Christ, rising, and then the living are caught UP, to meet Jesus and them in the air, taking "all the saints" to meet the Lord God in the air. Jesus is going to take all the saints who have believed to be admired and glorified before God the Father, and then he will punish all those who have NOT BELIEVED the gospel.
Sort of. . .

Jesus comes on the clouds in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16) with his powerful angels (Matthew 24:30-31),
all mankind is physically resurrected,
the saints--the resurrected as well as those who were living at the resurrection--ascend together (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to meet Jesus in the air and to
accompany Jesus in his continued descent to earth (parousia)
for the judgment of the sheep and the goats
(which takes place at the second coming when Jesus comes with his powerful angels (Matthew 25:31; Jude 14; 2 Thessalonians 1:7).
2Th 1:7-8 KJV 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and -------------------------->
that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 2:10-13 KJV 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because---------------------------------->
they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who ------------------->
believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation-------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Be Blessed
The PuP
 
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1Tonne

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Those authoritative (governing) words do not allow for more than one resurrection, one rapture, one second coming and one judgment--of all mankind in the last day at the end of time

The writers of the NT teaching (as distinct from riddles), all of them apostles, except for Luke and Jude.
Yes. . .that works; i.e., does not disagree with NT teaching, if you interpret the first resurrection of the riddle to be the spiritual new birth (resurrection from spiritual death) into eternal life of all the saints when they come to faith. . .the second resurrection being the physical resurrection of their bodies in the last day at the end of time. That agrees with only one physical resurrection of all mankind.
So that would all be in agreement with authoritative (governing) NT teaching.
Right. . .[/QUOTE]

1 x Resurrection of the martyrs (not all the believers) that return with Christ to rule for 1000 years. (This may be spiritual. That I am not sure. If it is the the physical, it would seem strange a person living for 1000 years. Though we do have Methuselah at 969 years old. So it is not out of the question.)

1 x Rapture that takes everyone (second resurrection) to meat with Jesus in the air. This will change everyone from being a physical beings into spiritual to meet Jesus in the air. Then they go to judgement.

However, authoritative NT teaching in Acts 3:21 is that "he must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything," which is the new heavens and new earth of 2 Peter 3:10-13.
So Jesus remains in heaven until the time when he comes back with the Martyrs and he will restore the world back to the way in which God wants it. This makes sense.
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
The writers of the NT teaching (as distinct from riddles), all of them apostles, except for Luke and Jude.
Yes. . .that works; i.e., does not disagree with NT teaching, if you interpret the first resurrection of the riddle to be the spiritual new birth (resurrection from spiritual death) into eternal life of all the saints when they come to faith. . .the second resurrection being the physical resurrection of their bodies in the last day at the end of time. That agrees with only one physical resurrection of all mankind.
So that would all be in agreement with authoritative (governing) NT teaching.
Right. . .
1 x Resurrection of the martyrs (not all the believers) that return with Christ to rule for 1000 years.
NT apostolic teaching allows no time between the resurrection, rapture, second coming and judgment of the sheep and goats for 1000 years of anything. These events are followed by the new heavens and new earth.
This may be spiritual. That I am not sure. If it is the the physical, it would seem strange a person living for 1000 years. Though we do have Methuselah at 969 years old. So it is not out of the question.
Actually, I suggest an interpretation of Revelation 20, other than a physical reign of Christ on the earth for a future 1,000 years, in keeping with prophecy as riddle (Numbers 12:8), and which is in agreement with authoritative (governing) NT teaching; i.e., that
it is figurative of the church age, where Christ reigns now in time (Ephesians 1:20-23), and we reign with him now in time (Ephesians 2:6):
1,000 being a symbolic number for completeness (total age), as are other numbers such as 7, 12, 144;
the first resurrection being of their spirits from eternal death to eternal life in the new birth; and
the second resurrection being the physical bodily resurrection of all mankind at the end of time at the second coming for the sheep and goat judgment of all mankind.
1 x Rapture that takes everyone (second resurrection) to meat with Jesus in the air. This will change everyone from being a physical beings into spiritual to meet Jesus in the air. Then they go to judgement.
Understand that:
1) the spiritual (sinless, immortal, glorious) body of the resurrection is physical, as was Jesus' resurrection body, just as the natural (sinful, mortal, weak) body that goes into the ground at death is physical; and
2) the "second resurrection" is the first and only physical bodily resurrection of all mankind, at the end of time.
So Jesus remains in heaven until the time when he comes back with the Martyrs and he will restore the world back to the way in which God wants it. This makes sense.
Jesus remains in heaven until the end of time when he descends from the sky (following the resurrection and the rapture) to the earth with all his powerful angels and all the saints (including the martyrs) for the judgment of the sheep and goats, after which all creation will be restored, by destroying the old with fire (2 Peter 3:10-13).
 
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eleos1954

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Our spirits are immortal (Luke 20:38), not our natural physical bodies.
However, our spiritual physical bodies at the resurrection will be immortal.

Are The Dead Really Dead?

Adam was created by God in the beginning.

1. How did we get here in the first place?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7.
Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

The spirits of both the righteous and the wicked return to God. Their bodies return to dust.

2. What happens when a person dies?

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies--whether righteous or wicked--returns to God at death.

There is nothing mysterious about the spirit that returns to God at death. It is the breath of life.

3. What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?

"The body without the spirit ["breath," is dead." James 2:26. "The spirit of God ["the breath which God gave him," ] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3.

Answer: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.

These four people are four souls.

4. What is a "soul"?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (a person)." Genesis 2:7.

Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls.

5. Do souls die?

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3.

Answer: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

6. Do good people go to heaven when they die?

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29. "David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.

Answer: No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

7. How much does one know or comprehend after death?

"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

Though millions think it is possible, the dead cannot communicate with the living.

8. But can't the dead communicate with the living, and aren't they aware of what the living are doing?

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6.
Answer: No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalms 146:4).

Jesus calls death "sleep." It is a state of total unconsciousness.

9. Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead "sleep" in John 11:11-14. How long will they sleep?

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12.

"The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away." 2 Peter 3:10.

Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death, humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

The righteous will be raised to life and given immortality at Jesus' second coming.
10. What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?
"Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. "We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
Answer: They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.

The devil's first lie to Eve was "You won't die" - a statement completely contrary to all Scripture.

11. What was the devil's first lie?

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." Genesis 3:4. "That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9.

Answer: Satan told Eve that sin would not bring death. "Ye shall not surely die," he said.

Those who believe the dead are alive become easy targets for the devil's deceptions.

12. Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than many think?

Answer: It is one of the cornerstones of the devil's kingdom. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt Exodus 7:11, Woman of Endor 1 Samuel 28:3-25, Sorcerers Daniel 2:2, A certain damsel Acts 16:16-18.)

A Solemn Warning

In the end-time Satan will again use sorcery as he did in Daniel's day to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.

Posing as Jesus' Disciples

Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even the apostles or disciples of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will most assuredly be deceived.

All miracle working is not from God, because devils also work miracles.

13. Do devils really work miracles?

"They are the spirits of devils, working miracles." Revelation 16:14. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24.
Answer: Yes, indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13, 14). Satan and his angels will appear as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23, 24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic worldwide revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and be so supernatural that only God's elect will not be deceived.

The elect will not be deceived, because they firmly reject everything that is contrary to Scripture.

14. Why will God's people not be deceived?

"They received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11. "If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.

Answer: God's people will know from their earnest study of His book that the dead are dead, not alive. Spirits of the dead do not exist. Therefore, God's people will reject all miracle workers and teachers who claim to receive special "light" or work miracles by contacting the spirits of the dead. And God's people will likewise reject as dangerous and false all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere.

In Moses' day, people who claimed power to communicate with the dead were stoned to death.
15. Back in Moses' day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?

"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones." Leviticus 20:27.

Answer: God insisted that wizards and others with "familiar spirits" (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.

No one in God's new kingdom will ever die. Death will cease at the destruction of Satan.
16. Will the righteous people who are raised in the resurrection ever die again?
"They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, ... Neither can they die any more." Luke 20:35, 36. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.

Answer: No! Death, sorrow, crying, and tragedy will never enter into God's new kingdom.

Reincarnation is impossible. Because God says all who died, both good and evil, are in their graves.

17. Belief in reincarnation is expanding rapidly today. Is this teaching biblical?
"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing. ... Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6.

Answer: Almost half the people on earth believe in reincarnation, a teaching that the soul never dies but is instead continually reborn in a different kind of body with each succeeding generation. This teaching, however, is contrary to Scripture.

The Bible Says

After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

Satan's Invention

We learned in questions 11 and 12 that Satan invented the teaching that the dead are alive. Reincarnation, channeling, communication with spirits, spirit worship, and the "undying soul" are all inventions of Satan, with one aim to convince people that when you die you are not really dead. When people believe that the dead are alive, "spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14) and posing as spirits of the dead will be able to deceive and lead them astray virtually 100 percent of the time (Matthew 24:24).

Those who insist on Scripture proof for all doctrines will not be led astray by Satan.
18. I am thankful for the Bible, which tells us the truth on this sensitive subject of death.


Other considerations


1. Didn't the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died?
No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, "I am not yet ascended to my Father." John 20:17. This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. Also note that the punctuation of the Bible is not inspired, but was added by men. The comma in Luke 23:43 should be placed after the words "to day" rather than before, so the passage should read, "Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise." Or, "I'm telling you today--when it seems that I can save no one, when I myself am being crucified as a criminal--I give you the assurance today that you will be with me in paradise." Christ's kingdom is set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and all the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and not at death.

2. Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul?
No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is is in always in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).

3. At death the body returns to dust and the spirit (or breath) returns to God. But where does the soul go?
It goes nowhere. Instead, it simply ceases to exist. Two things must be combined to make a soul: body and breath. When the breath departs, the soul ceases to exist because it is a combination of two things. When you turn off a light, where does the light go? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to exist. Two things must combine to make a light: a bulb and electricity. Without the combination, a light is impossible. So with the soul; unless body and breath are combined, there can be no soul. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul.

4. Does the word "soul" ever mean anything other than a living being?

Yes, it may mean also (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it ceases to exist at death.

5. Can you explain John 11:26, which says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"?

This refers not to the first death, which all people die (Hebrews 9:27), but to the second death, which only the wicked die and from which there is no eternal resurrection (Revelation 2:11; 21:8).

6. Matthew 10:28 says, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Doesn't this prove that the soul is undying?

No, it proves the opposite. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, "But rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The word "soul" here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away the eternal life that God bestows. (See also Luke 12:4, 5.)

7. Doesn't 1 Peter 4:6 say the gospel was preached to dead people?

No, it says the gospel "was" preached to those who "are" dead. They are dead now, but the gospel "was" preached to them while they were yet living.

8. What about the souls crying out from under the altar in Revelation 6:9, 10? Doesn't this show that souls do not die?

No. This cry was figurative, as was the cry of Abel's blood (Genesis 4:10). The word "soul" here means people (or living beings) who had been slain for their faith. Surely no one believes that souls who die literally lie under the altar, nor do people believe that the righteous beg God to punish their enemies. Rather, the righteous beg for mercy for their enemies, as Christ did on the cross (Luke 23:34).

9. Doesn't the Bible say Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between His crucifixion and resurrection?

No, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day--to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6, 7; 61:1; and Luke 4:18.)

Now think about this …. “IF” you have within yourself a immortal “soul” that goes either to heaven or hell when you die the “IF” the “immortal saved” you go to heaven (eternally) then what is the necessity of Jesus dieing on the cross to provide a way for you TO receive the gift of eternal life (immortality)? “IF” the wicked are condemned to “burn in hell forever” … that IS also immortality …. a tortuous one … but the point is … it is still immortality (eternal). Either way, with this belief one is believing human beings already have within themselves immortality.

No where in the Bible will you find a the phrase immortal soul existing outside of resurrection at the 2nd (or last) coming of Jesus Christ and He at that time He gives unto those written in the book of life eternal life (immortality) referred to at the “first” resurrection. Yes there is more than one resurrection. One for the saved, one for the not saved.

We get new bodies ... our "Physical bodies" are corrupt.

The belief of a "immortal soul" is doing away with the resurrection(s)
 
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Timtofly

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The next conscious moment for Stephen and for everybody who dies, is to be standing before God in Judgment. Just as Hebrews 9:27 says.
Well I was not arguing no judgment would come. Neither was it during any unconscious part.

The point of judgment that is appointed is that of rejecting Christ. If you accept the Atonement instead of the judgment, why would you still expect to be judged?

You were already dead as well, in conjunction with said judgment. You were born dead. You have death covered. Jesus has the judgment covered. Sounds like a win win scenario, right now. There is literally nothing preventing you from Paradise. Except you actually have to leave earth first.
 
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