Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

Leaf473 · Dec 7, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I referenced Revelation 22:11-15 (not 11 alone).

Yes, I believe "ff" is an abbreviation meaning "and following".

Have you seen it in Bible commentaries?

Maybe you have seen "cf" which means "compare"?

It was provided as an anti-type fulfillment of the final announcement of the cleansing of the Sanctuary through the final atonement when all the work of Jesus has been completed in the heavenly Sanctuary just prior to the second coming and the fulfillment of the anti-type of the great day of atonement.

It could be, but the cleansing of the sanctuary isn't mentioned.

Revelation 20:1-3 was also provided as an anti-type fulfillment of satan as "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) being led into wilderness and being bound 1000 years.

Yes I could see why you were giving that scripture reference.

Take care.

You too, my friend!

tall73 · Dec 7, 2021

BobRyan said:
Wow - more "All Ellen White all the time" posting on a thread about SDA doctrines and sola scriptura testing. There is really only "one source" here on CF for that sort of focus.

It works because non-SDA readers don't have the material or background and can be spun in almost any direction by those with an interest to do it.

So I stick with sola scriptura threads - like this one where I quote the Bible.

So you are telling your audience that they are too ignorant to understand. But they are not. They can read her statements and the Bible.

Leaf473 · Dec 7, 2021

Well that was a lot of words!
(Referring to my own post storm above.)

My feeling is the long posts like that are actually disruptive to the general flow and don't promote understanding.

But we'll see how it works out!

tall73 · Dec 7, 2021

BobRyan said:
Wow - more "All Ellen White all the time" posting on a thread about SDA doctrines and sola scriptura testing.

Only because Adventists recognize her as inspired. It is just for you that I go look up Ellen White to remind you of what she said.

You know Ellen White never comes up at my church. They go just by the Bible. Since they don't consider her inspired, no one cares what she said.

But of course, you and LGW resorted to Jewish tradition in the thread. And LGW even appealed to satanists! And that was to establish his view.

I am not posting Ellen White to establish my view. Far from it. I am using it to show what Adventists think, because you put her in your fundamental beliefs as inspired.

And we are in fact doing exactly what the thread talks about. We are testing Ellen White by the Bible. I hardly see why you would have a problem with that. But you seem to want to change what Ellen White says frequently.

There is really only "one source" here on CF for that sort of focus.

Oh I have seen a few others quote Ellen White to remind Adventists of what they don't want to talk about.

It works because non-SDA readers don't have the material or background and can be spun in almost any direction by those with an interest to do it.

It works because you accept her as inspired. You even defend all her statements. Well, you didn't really defend how God gave meat to the priests to eat, and how Jesus gave it to His disciples, and how Jesus said it was a good gift for children to have fish when Ellen White said that meat was given to shorten the lifespan and that God intended Israel to not eat meat. You just said it was a mystery we would have to wait to figure out. So I guess even you have your limits.

It just so happens that recommendations for praying your sins be placed on satan isn't one of them.

So I stick with sola scriptura threads - like this one where I quote the Bible.

And Jewish tradition. And LGW referred to satanists.

tall73 · Dec 7, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Quoting White:

Hmmm... So prophecies against other prophets? Does this mean Sister Minor failed the test?

It refers to Clorinda Minor. She had views that most in the movement at that time did not regarding Palestine having some role in future prophecy. She wound up acting on that by going as an unofficial missionary to the region.

That is why traveling to Jerusalem is mentioned (negatively) by Ellen White in the letter.

You could see this as a discernment of spirits type of gift in exercise.

Adventists tend to view several tests of a prophet in Scripture. Here is an article on the subject:

EllenWhite.Org Website - The Tests of a Prophet

Minor, Clorinda Strong (1809–1855)

tall73 · Dec 7, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Then please take the time to read my posts that have already addressed your question in detail. This has already been addressed some time ago. It was because he was the instigator of all sin. After Jesus purchased our sins through blood sacrifice they were no longer our sins. In the great day of atonement, all of the sins of God's people were then transferred to "the scapegoat" that was "kept alive" and led into the wilderness by a strong man. This part of the work takes place after the Sanctuary has been atoned for and God's people have been forgiven through blood sacrifice made by "the Lords goat" and the Great high priest.

After the final atonement has been completed through blood sacrifice to make atonement for all of God's people, "the scapegoat" was then brought before the Lord and all the sins of God's people were then transferred to "scapegoat" by the great high Priest at which time all sin was removed from the presence of the Lord as the scapegoat was "kept alive" and led away into the wilderness by a strong man *Leviticus 16:8-22.

The part of the anti type has application to the second coming at the completion of the cleansing of the Sanctuary in Revelation 22:11-15 and when the Angel of the Lord takes hold of Satan and bounds him for 1000 years ("kept alive"). After this time all the wicked as well as the devil and his angels are then thrown into the lake of fire where they will all atone for their sins typified as the final burnt offering and the removal of all sin and death from the presence of the Lord.

I am a sinner. Jesus Christ purchased my sins through blood atonement and now I have been forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:1-4) See, the discussion on "the Lords goat" already provided. He saves me by His grace every day.

No it disagrees with your interpretation of what EGW. Jesus did indeed purchase our sins. We do not own them anymore. They have been transferred to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel)" who pays the penalty of these sins in the Lake of fire with all the wicked.

Correct. The sins of Gods' people are transferred to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel)" they no longer are responsible for them.

So to clarify, when you pray about your sins, do you pray to Jesus that He would atone for them by His blood? Or do you do as Ellen White indicated here and pray that your sins are confessed on the head of satan? Or do you do both?

Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.

Lt 8, 1850

If Jesus will make atonement for you (in your view in the IJ), why do you need to pray for your sins to be put on satan? And why does she keep talking about it being your sin after you say it is not?

And how can satan, being a sinner, take on sin not his own?

And when you say:

After this time all the wicked as well as the devil and his angels are then thrown into the lake of fire where they will all atone for their sins typified as the final burnt offering and the removal of all sin and death from the presence of the Lord.

So to clarify, they are atoning not just for their sins but also for yours, but which are not yours now because Jesus purchased them?

Why are they atoned for twice?

Read Leviticus 16:20-22. The goats are symbols of Christs sacrifice and satan as "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel)". Goats are not sinful beings.

But satan is a sinful being. So why would he be represented by the same unblemished goat as Christ?

tall73 · Dec 7, 2021

Could one of the Adventists in the thread let us know how often they pray that their sins will be confessed over satan? Do you usually do that before or after you ask Jesus to forgive them and make atonement?

Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.
Lt 8, 1850

tall73 · Dec 7, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Yet I believe that is exactly what your doing with those EGW statements as shown through the scriptures shared with you.

LGW you have often accused me of twisting Ellen White's statements. I would like to discuss a particular statement of Ellen White regarding the sanctuary. Can you please explain what this statement means. That way we can get your view before I place any "twisting" on the passage:

Early Writings, by Ellen G. White. A Firm Platform

And by rejecting the two former messages, they have so darkened their understanding that they can see no light in the third angel's message, which shows the way into the most holy place. I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, working with his power, his signs and lying wonders, to fasten them in his snare.

I have linked to the context. People are free to read the entirety of Early Writings if they like to get the context.

tall73 · Dec 7, 2021

BobRyan said:
She says "the guilt of all the sins which he has caused " - his guilt in instigating those sins - (the full context you love to omit). #623

It has been a while since I read all of Early Writings, but our Orthodox friend in the other thread posted part of this:

Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, “Amen!”

Per Ellen White he suffers for ruin of souls he caused, and for his own sins, AND for the the sins of the redeemed host.

BobRyan · Dec 7, 2021

ChetSinger said:
Right. So the church voted that Ellen White's writings speak with prophetic authority.

Because the Bible says prophets speak with prophetic authority in 2 Peter 1.

Bible details matter ... still.

pasifika · Dec 7, 2021

tall73 said:
You never tire of changing what she said. She said he pays for the sins of God's people, not just his part in it.

If you can't even say what she said, then it is hardly a defense of her position.

They love EG White more than the Chr

tall73 said:
Bob, the point you are struggling over is that you claim Jesus' atonement was insufficient, leaving a penalty to be paid, by a sinful person, for other people's sin.

As @ChetSinger pointed out you don't appear to see an issue with lessening the power of Christ's atonement. However, the statement of Ellen White, which you instinctively tried to change to soften, is in fact terrible.

Well, as it is written that those who teach the Word will be judge more...

BobRyan · Dec 7, 2021

tall73 said:
It has been a while since I read all of Early Writings, but our Orthodox friend in the other thread posted part of this:

Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, “Amen!”

BobRyan said:
hint - even in the wildest imagine version of your would-be scenarios if Satan had the suffering for all sin in heaven and earth placed on his wicked soul - he could not be a spotless atoning-sacrifice sin offering or atone for anyone nor even himself - since he is still a wicked being.

You skip over this detail maybe 20 times so far.

And it deletes your entire argument.

What is worse is this !

BobRyan said:
The other huge gap in your model is that all your associates here suppose to themselves that Satan gets infinite torture - eternal torment for his part - and Adventist put it at infinitely less then that - being finite. Your "satan might suffer too much in the Adventist model I suggest" idea - is hiding that key detail from your own side.

BobRyan · Dec 7, 2021

tall73 said:
Could one of the Adventists in the thread let us know how often they pray that their sins will be confessed over satan?

Is this you claiming Satan or any of the wicked are a sin offering... "again"????

BobRyan said:
Satan -- not as a 'sin offering" - so then not to "benefit" anyone by relieving their sin debt etc.

1. Christ paid for all the sins of all mankind in all of time on the cross.
2. The wicked suffer for their own debt of sin because they refuse the gospel
3. The suffering of the wicked is not salvific, is not substitutionary, and does not diminish the work of Christ.
4. Satan is a wicked being to whom that statement #3 applies in full -- whatever suffering he experiences is not done on anyone else's behalf and does not affect in any way the debt paid by Christ.

============================
At the trial of Christ – His opposers feigned outrage as they bent-and-wrenched is statement “destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up”.

By bending Christ’s meaning they had an emotional whip to stir up the crowd supposedly in faithful affirmation of “the temple of God”.

That tactic has worked a few times in the past.

Hint: Adventists claim that Christ made a full and complete atoning sacrifice on the cross – as also Ellen White reminds the reader - #666

Statements made about suffering added to what is piled on Satan -- refer to “his own guilt” as the instigator of sin. #623

His own guilt is paid for by his own suffering - God punishes the wicked as the final disposition for sin. But the suffering of the wicked does not relieve the guilt or suffering of any person. Only a sin offering can do that - which means only the blood of Christ can do that. Confusing the two clear teachings - is the work of those who sow confusion.

We can do this all day long - I make the point that debunks your wild claim and you then ignore it.

tall73 · Dec 7, 2021

BobRyan said:
Is this you claiming Satan or any of the wicked are a sin offering... "again"????

This is me quoting Ellen White saying that people should pray much that their sins are confessed over satan.

Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.
Lt 8, 1850

But you know that, because you can read the Ellen White comment.

Now Bob, are you going to answer the question? Do you pray much that your sins will be confessed over satan?

BobRyan · Dec 7, 2021

tall73 said:
So to clarify, when you pray about your sins, do you pray to Jesus that He would atone for them by His blood? Or do you do as Ellen White indicated here and pray that your sins are confessed on the head of satan?

you have no quote at all from Ellen White saying " pray that your sins are confessed on the head of satan as your substitute" - and we both know it.

But we DO have THIS:

“As the cross of Calvary, with its infinite sacrifice for the sins of men, was revealed, they saw that nothing but the merits of Christ could suffice to atone for their transgressions; this alone could reconcile man to God. With faith and humility they accepted the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Through the blood of Jesus they had “remission of sins that are past.” {GC 461.1}

BobRyan said:
Satan -- not as a 'sin offering" - so then not to "benefit" anyone by relieving their sin debt etc.

1. Christ paid for all the sins of all mankind in all of time on the cross.
2. The wicked suffer for their own debt of sin because they refuse the gospel
3. The suffering of the wicked is not salvific, is not substitutionary, and does not diminish the work of Christ.
4. Satan is a wicked being to whom that statement #3 applies in full -- whatever suffering he experiences is not done on anyone else's behalf and does not affect in any way the debt paid by Christ.

============================
At the trial of Christ – His opposers feigned outrage as they bent-and-wrenched is statement “destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up”.

By bending Christ’s meaning they had an emotional whip to stir up the crowd supposedly in faithful affirmation of “the temple of God”.

That tactic has worked a few times in the past.

Hint: Adventists claim that Christ made a full and complete atoning sacrifice on the cross – as also Ellen White reminds the reader - #666

Statements made about suffering added to what is piled on Satan -- refer to “his own guilt” as the instigator of sin. #623

His own guilt is paid for by his own suffering - God punishes the wicked as the final disposition for sin. But the suffering of the wicked does not relieve the guilt or suffering of any person. Only a sin offering can do that - which means only the blood of Christ can do that. Confusing the two clear teachings - is the work of those who sow confusion.

You appear to constantly complain - that this Bible text "exists"

Lev 16: (The SCAPEGOAT)
20 “When he finishes atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21 Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the wrongdoings of the sons of Israel and all their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall place them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands ready. 22 Then the goat shall carry on itself all their wrongdoings to an isolated territory; he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

26 The one who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; then afterward he shall come into the camp. (Because unlike the sin offering - the scapegoat defiles those that touch it while it is alive)

Apparently you believe Ellen White wrote that and also imagine that it says the scapegoat is "THE sin offering" instead of the Lord's goat as "THE Sin offering" In Lev 16.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

BobRyan · Dec 7, 2021

tall73 said:
Now Bob, are you going to answer the question? Do you pray much that your sins will be confessed over satan?

Do you understand the difference between the "Sin offering" and the "scapegoat"???

You appear to constantly complain - that this Bible text "exists"

Lev 16: (The SCAPEGOAT)
20 “When he finishes atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21 Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the wrongdoings of the sons of Israel and all their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall place them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands ready. 22 Then the goat shall carry on itself all their wrongdoings to an isolated territory; he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

26 The one who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; then afterward he shall come into the camp. (Because unlike the sin offering - the scapegoat defiles those that touch it while it is alive)

Apparently you believe Ellen White wrote that and also imagine that it says the scapegoat is "THE sin offering" instead of the Lord's goat as "THE Sin offering" In Lev 16.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

tall73 · Dec 7, 2021

BobRyan said:
already addressed here -

Today at 9:44 AM #685

with all the details you skim past in your claim that Satan may suffer too much.

hint - even in the wildest imagine version of your would-be scenarios if Satan had the suffering for all sin in heaven and earth placed on his wicked soul - he could not be a spotless atoning-sacrifice sin offering or atone for anyone nor even himself - since he is still a wicked being.

Hey Bob, I know you don't get it. But the rest do. So I will just note that no detail was skipped over.

Jesus died for the sins of God's people.

satan never will have the sins of God's people placed on him to pay the penalty because Jesus already paid the penalty.

But of course Ellen White says he must pay the sins for the sins of God's people. And that is just her twisted imagination that devalues the atonement of Christ.

You skip over this detail maybe 20 times so far.

The detail that you think a sinful being can take on your sins? We didn't skip over it.

Nor did we skip over the notion that he would need to pay the final penalty that Ellen White alleges. We don't ignore her cheapening of the atonement of Christ.

We said it is blasphemous and disgusting, and sick, and twisted, and a number of other things that could be mentioned. That is not ignoring it.

The other huge gap in your model is that all your associates here suppose to themselves that Satan gets infinite torture - eternal torment for his part - and Adventist put it at infinitely less then that - being finite. Your "satan might suffer too much in the Adventist model I suggest" idea - is hiding that key detail from your own side.

Bob, I have not hidden anything from the that Ellen White said. I posted the texts about him being destroyed. They all saw it, and some commented on it.

And no one in this thread is concerned about satan suffering too much. We are concerned that Ellen White's disgusting theology has a penalty left to bear for the sins of God's people after the Son of God paid that penalty.

BobRyan · Dec 7, 2021

pasifika said:
They love EG White more than the Chr .

Someone here loves "All Ellen White all the time" posting... that is for sure.

BobRyan · Dec 7, 2021

tall73 said:
Hey Bob, I know you don't get it. But the rest do. So I will just note that no detail was skipped over.

Jesus died for the sins of God's people.

And now the "details" you skip over -- as already noted on this thread

============================
In real life - Lev 16 has this sequence

1. The sin offering selected -
2. The sin offering slain (Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross - pays the debt of all sin in all of time) as also Ellen White reminds the reader - #666 - so also you have admitted this is what Adventists teach.
3. The work in the sanctuary (those who accept that Gospel are identified and affirmed)

In all of that - the scapegoat plays no part at all.
Only when it is entirely completed do we have this -

4. sins confessed on the head of the scapegoat and it is sent away - defiling whoever it touches.

Even your own view adding even more suffering for satan- does not change anything about the atonement since the suffering of the wicked:

is not a sin offering,
does not relieve anyone's suffering,
is not substitutionary

...all the details you are careful to skim past so far.

BobRyan said:
You appear to constantly complain - that this Bible text "exists"

Lev 16: (The SCAPEGOAT)
20 “When he finishes atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21 Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the wrongdoings of the sons of Israel and all their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall place them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands ready. 22 Then the goat shall carry on itself all their wrongdoings to an isolated territory; he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

26 The one who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; then afterward he shall come into the camp. (Because unlike the sin offering - the scapegoat defiles those that touch it while it is alive)

Apparently you believe Ellen White wrote that and also imagine that it says the scapegoat is "THE sin offering" instead of the Lord's goat as "THE Sin offering" In Lev 16.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

BobRyan · Dec 7, 2021

tall73 said:
The detail that you think a sinful being can take on your sins? We didn't skip over it.

"take your sins and what"? after full atonement had been made for them in the sanctuary as God teaches in Lev 16 (a chapter you seem to want to blame on "Ellen White")

If you aren't going to read the posts - it opens the door for me to show how they have already debunked the speculation you are handing out.

Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

Well-Known Member

Sophia7's husband

Well-Known Member

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Similar threads