If we are not under the law we are not sinning

BABerean2 said:

The 4th commandment was given to the children of Israel after they left Egypt.
See Deuteronomy 5:3.
It was the "sign" of the Sinai Covenant.
It was the "shadow" of the rest we now have from Christ's work at Calvary. I do not have to rest one day a week from my efforts to keep the Sinai Covenant perfectly.


Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ;

In Galatians 4:24-31 Paul told the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".

We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but we are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion in Hebrews 12:22-24. The same concept is found in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


.

Click to expand...

According to Jesus the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 and man was created on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 before any Jews, so this is contradictory to what Jesus tells us.

You also missed some important verses in Colossians that gives context to Col 2:16

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The Sabbath is part of covenant of the Ten Commandments, it’s not an ordinance it is a commandment, personally spoken and written by our Creator and Savior. Exodus 34:28. The Sabbath commandment was not nailed to the cross as Jesus speaks of the Sabbath being kept long after He descended back to heaven Matthew 24:20

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

This certainly does not say the 4th commandment is deleted or does not need to be kept and it is referring to food and drink which there is no reference to food or drink in the Sabbath commandment. The Sabbath commandment is the holy day of the Lord thy God according to God. Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13

The Sabbath is not a shadow as it points to Creation Genesis 2:1-3, the Sabbath is a memorial to what God created “remember” the Sabbath day to keep it holy Exodus 20:8. When God tells us to Remember something I don’t think its wise to teach the opposite, especially when its one of God’s commandments that uses the words “holy to God” and “blessed by God”.

SabbathBlessings said:

According to Jesus the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 and man was created on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 before any Jews, so this is contradictory to what Jesus tells us.

You also missed some important verses in Colossians that gives context to Col 2:16

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The Sabbath is part of covenant of the Ten Commandments, it’s not an ordinance it is a commandment, personally spoken and written by our Creator and Savior. Exodus 34:28. The Sabbath commandment was not nailed to the cross as Jesus speaks of the Sabbath being kept long after He descended back to heaven Matthew 24:20

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

This certainly does not say the 4th commandment is deleted or does not need to be kept and it is referring to food and drink which there is no reference to food or drink in the Sabbath commandment. The Sabbath commandment is the holy day of the Lord thy God according to God. Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13

The Sabbath is not a shadow as it points to Creation Genesis 2:1-3, the Sabbath is a memorial to what God created “remember” the Sabbath day to keep it holy Exodus 20:8. When God tells us to Remember something I don’t think its wise to teach the opposite, especially when its one of God’s commandments that uses the words “holy to God” and “blessed by God”.

Click to expand...

If you cannot tell us what percentage of your salvation comes from Christ's work at Calvary, and what percentage comes from your own works, you cannot understand Colossians 2:16-17.


Have you failed to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage", as Paul commanded in Galatians 4:24-31?

Are you come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, instead of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22-24?

.

BABerean2 said:

If you cannot tell us what percentage of your salvation comes from Christ's work at Calvary, and what percentage comes from your own works, you cannot understand Colossians 2:16-17.


Have you failed to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage", as Paul commanded in Galatians 4:24-31?

Are you come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, instead of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22-24?

.

Click to expand...

Once you have receive the truth, it is our duty to study scripture because everything in the bible must reconcile and Paul is not doing away with the 4th commandment and God's holy day. I noticed you ended up just repeating yourself and did not address anything in my post. I am willing to go through this again because if you are trying to do away with a commandment of God, that God personally wrote, kept in the Most Holy of His Temple and told us to Remember- that is important.

We are not saved by keeping the commandments, we are saved by God's grace- His gift (to give or not give) through our faith. Obedience to God is a fruit of our faith and those who say Lord Lord but choose not to keep God's commandment Jesus tells us He does not know you. Matthew 7:22-23

Again Colossians 2:14 tells us what Col 2:16 is referring to and that is an ordinance, not a commandment and that it was contrary to us.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The Sabbath is a commandment that "holy" and "blessed by God" Does holy and blessed sound contrary to us? John also tells us God's commandments are not Grevious 1 John 5:3 so obviously that sounds like a contradiction. If there is doubt, would you rather error on the side of obeying over disobeying especially when it comes to THE HOLY DAY OF THE LORD THY GOD? Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13

There is no doubt in my mind that the seventh day Sabbath was not nailed to the cross, because Jesus specifically refers to the Sabbath as being kept after He descended back to Heaven Matthew 24:20, it was shown to be a commandment after Jesus died, Luke 56:23 and the Sabbath will continue to be Jesus's chosen day of worship the Sabbath for eternity Isaiah 66:23 just like God promised Exodus 31-16-17 and was from the very beginning Genesis 2:1-3

BABerean2 said:

Have you failed to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage", as Paul commanded in Galatians 4:24-31?

Click to expand...

You seem to not fully understand what you are quoting.

Lets back up for some context

Galatians 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

It symbolic of Abrahams sons. Paul likens Isaac's birth to the new covenant relationship and Ishmael is compared to the old covenant. God told Abraham he would have a son by Sarah. Abraham did not think that was possible. Abraham fell back on the old covenant principle "we will do". Issaac was born by Sarah and it was a miracle of grace. This represents the new covenant God does- "God's writes His laws in our hearts and minds" Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:33. The child of promise represents the New Covenant because Abraham obeyed God's commandments. Ismael represents disobedience.

Many disciples did not understand the words of Paul and it seems many who want to try and "delete" the 4th commandment it is obviously not what Paul said, because he tells us what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 which of course includes all of them. Jesus tells us to keep the least of the commandments Matthew 5:19 and Jesus certainly did not do away with the Sabbath that Jesus was told was made for us. Mark 2:27

SabbathBlessings said:

Lets back up for some context

Galatians 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

It symbolic of Abrahams sons. Paul likens Isaac's birth to the new covenant relationship and Ishmael is compared to the old covenant. God told Abraham he would have a son by Sarah. Abraham did not think that was possible. Abraham fell back on the old covenant principle "we will do". Issaac was born by Sarah and it was a miracle of grace. This represents the new covenant God does- "God's writes His laws in our hearts and minds" Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:33. The child of promise represents the New Covenant because Abraham obeyed God's commandments. Ismael represents disobedience.

Click to expand...

You quoted the passage, and then changed what it says.
Paul said Hagar represents the Old Covenant in the passage, instead of Ishmael.

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—



Did Paul tell the Galatian believers to "cast out" Hagar, who represents the Old Covenant? Yes, or No ?

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


.

BABerean2 said:

You quoted the passage, and then changed what it says.
Paul said Hagar represents the Old Covenant in the passage, instead of Ishmael.

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—



Did Paul tell the Galatian believers to "cast out" Hagar, who represents the Old Covenant? Yes, or No ?

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


.

Click to expand...

You may not realize this but you addressed nothing and just repeated yourself.

SabbathBlessings said:

You may not realize this but you addressed nothing and just repeated yourself.

Click to expand...

You have not given an answer about what percentage of your salvation was paid for by Christ at Calvary?

And now you cannot answer the question about Paul telling the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage"?

Can you address the two points above?


2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


What was the ministry of death written on stones in the passage above?
What do the words "was glorious" mean? Does that mean past tense?


.

BABerean2 said:

You have not given an answer about what percentage of your salvation was paid for by Christ at Calvary?

And now you cannot answer the question about Paul telling the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage"?

Can you address the two points above?


2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


What was the ministry of death written on stones in the passage above?
What do the words "was glorious" mean? Does that mean past tense?


.

Click to expand...

I have already addressed your post, but you haven’t addressed mine. When you address my post #105 and #107 I will be happy to continue otherwise we are just going in circles.

SabbathBlessings said:

I have already addressed your post, but you haven’t addressed mine. When you address my post #105 and #107 I will be happy to continue otherwise we are just going in circles.

Click to expand...

Maybe Dale Ratzlaff can help you.
It took him many years to understand Colossians 2:16-17, and the fact that the teachings of Ellen G. White do not match up to what is in the Bible.



.

BABerean2 said:

Maybe Dale Ratzlaff can help you.
It took him many years to understand Colossians 2:16-17, and the fact that the teachings of Ellen G. White do not match up to what is in the Bible.

.

Click to expand...

Why would I listen to anything Dale says when he teaches against the holy scriptures, as predicted many would in scriptures. Also you continue to not address anything in my posts but instead deflect again.

John Wesley disagrees with your interpretation and Dales.

This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. ...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages.
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.

If you are opposed to keeping the Sabbath now- will you want to on the New Earth God’s holy Sabbath is not going any where Isaiah 66:23 just like God promised. Exodus 31:16-17

SabbathBlessings said:

John Wesley disagrees with your interpretation and Dales.

This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. ...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages.
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.

Click to expand...

John Wesley was following the doctrine of Reformed Covenant Theology, which is about 400 years old.

If he or anyone else can show the words "the moral law" in the Bible, please show us where it is found.

Like you, Wesley did not "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" found in Galatians 4:24-31.


Both of you failed to let go of the "ministry of death written on stones" found below.


2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Do you understand the words "was glorious"? Does that mean past tense?

.

BABerean2 said:

John Wesley was following the doctrine of Reformed Covenant Theology, which is about 400 years old.

Click to expand...

What does how old it is have anything to do with it? God's Word does not change, nor does God MALACHI 3:6 and God's commandments are eternal just as Jesus told us very plainly. Matthew 5:19

The bible has to reconcile so your interpretation of Col 2:14-16 does reconcile with 1 John 5:3, Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13, Isaiah 66:23, Mark 2:27-28, John 14:15, John 15:10, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14-15, Matthew 24:20, Luke 56:23, Luke 4:16-22, Acts 18:4 which you have yet to address these scriptures.

I am beginning to see a pattern here that you are falling into the trap of only quoting Paul's writings and ignoring the rest of scripture and like others in Paul's time have no understanding of what he is saying.

BABerean2 said:

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
Do you understand the words "was glorious"? Does that mean past tense?

.

Click to expand...

Notice this does not say we are free to break the letter of the law and this again shows us that you have no understanding of the scripture you quote from. You are trying so hard to "do away" with God's holy law that was written by the hand of God and kept in the Most Holy of God's Temple. God has a Temple in Heaven that also has an ark of the covenant Revelation 11:19 Why are you trying to make a case against something that was personally written by God and kept in the Most Holy of God's temple. The thing is you do not need to convince us, you need to convince God that you do not have to follow His laws and can ignore the majority of the bible. Jesus has warnings for those who teach others we can disregard the commandments so I would seriously consider what you are teaching. Matthew 5:19

I don't think you understand the new covenant from the old covenant which Paul is contrasting in 2 Cor 3-8. By the way a covenant is not a set of laws, it is an agreement. Paul is referring to the tables of stone versus the tables of the heart. God writes in laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:33 so the law has not ended, they are in our hearts. The law is not done away with the application of how we obey God is what changed. They are written in our hearts, so we obey out of love John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3. They are written in our minds so we remember to do them. James 1:22, Paul said Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

I would reconsider your theory that God's Ten Commandments are not required for Christian living because :

But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation 22:15

Friend, let's not find ourselves outside of God's kingdom. While we are saved by God's grace , we all have to stand before Jesus on judgement day based on what we did or did not do on this earth.2 Corinthians 5:10

God blessed the seventh day Sabbath and made it holy to both Him and to us. Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Once God blesses something you cannot reverse. Numbers 23:20. God asked us to remember so I am going to obey God and even the disciples told us we ought to obey God over man. Acts 5:29

HIM said:

Above you stated we were still under the law. Galatians says different. Then you proceed to make a case outside of the text. That is not how it works. Galatians states we are not under the law. Let’s go with that.
Then stick to Galatians. Because in Galatians it states we are not under the law.

Click to expand...

The issue is that Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as the law of sin and works of the law, so while I agree that we aren't under the law, it is important to correctly identify which law he was referring to us not being under, and I have made the case that the law he was referring to is the law of sin rather than the Law of God. For example, in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with the law of faith, and in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if you think that the correct interpretation of Galatians is speaking against obeying the Law of God, then you should be quicker to disregard the book of Galatians as being Scripture than to disregard anything that God has commanded, however, the reality is that Paul was not an enemy of God, so he never spoke against anyone obeying anything that God has commanded.

SabbathBlessings said:

What does how old it is have anything to do with it? God's Word does not change, nor does God MALACHI 3:6 and God's commandments are eternal just as Jesus told us very plainly. Matthew 5:19

The bible has to reconcile so your interpretation of Col 2:14-16 does reconcile with 1 John 5:3, Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13, Isaiah 66:23, Mark 2:27-28, John 14:15, John 15:10, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14-15, Matthew 24:20, Luke 56:23, Luke 4:16-22, Acts 18:4 which you have yet to address these scriptures.

I am beginning to see a pattern here that you are falling into the trap of only quoting Paul's writings and ignoring the rest of scripture and like others in Paul's time have no understanding of what he is saying.




Notice this does not say we are free to break the letter of the law and this again shows us that you have no understanding of the scripture you quote from. You are trying so hard to "do away" with God's holy law that was written by the hand of God and kept in the Most Holy of God's Temple. God has a Temple in Heaven that also has an ark of the covenant Revelation 11:19 Why are you trying to make a case against something that was personally written by God and kept in the Most Holy of God's temple. The thing is you do not need to convince us, you need to convince God that you do not have to follow His laws and can ignore the majority of the bible. Jesus has warnings for those who teach others we can disregard the commandments so I would seriously consider what you are teaching. Matthew 5:19

I don't think you understand the new covenant from the old covenant which Paul is contrasting in 2 Cor 3-8. By the way a covenant is not a set of laws, it is an agreement. Paul is referring to the tables of stone versus the tables of the heart. God writes in laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:33 so the law has not ended, they are in our hearts. The law is not done away with the application of how we obey God is what changed. They are written in our hearts, so we obey out of love John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3. They are written in our minds so we remember to do them. James 1:22, Paul said Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

I would reconsider your theory that God's Ten Commandments are not required for Christian living because :

But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation 22:15

Friend, let's not find ourselves outside of God's kingdom. While we are saved by God's grace , we all have to stand before Jesus on judgement day based on what we did or did not do on this earth.2 Corinthians 5:10

God blessed the seventh day Sabbath and made it holy to both Him and to us. Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Once God blesses something you cannot reverse. Numbers 23:20. God asked us to remember so I am going to obey God and even the disciples told us we ought to obey God over man. Acts 5:29

Click to expand...

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


.

BABerean2 said:

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


.

Click to expand...

Yes, if you continue reading Hebrews it tells us what has changed and nowhere does it tell us the ten Commandments are deleted. Again, you have not addressed anything from my post.

HIM said:

If we are walking, being led by the spirit and are of Christ we have the flesh with the affections and lusts.


Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Click to expand...

If we walk by the Spirit we will overcome sin. Otherwise, whether we're under the law or have never even heard it, we will be unable to "put death the deeds of the flesh". Rom 8:13