Responding to the 'closed canon' argument against special revelations and sign gifts?

Guojing · Dec 5, 2021

chad kincham said:
And as Peter lets us know, a thousand years is but a day to the Lord - the last days started 2 days ago on the eternal being time scale.

Another answer is that prophecy has been interrupted by the mystery.

We are now living in a period of time that none of the OT prophets knew about

Francis Drake · Dec 6, 2021

Guojing said:
You don't appear to understand what I was asking

I understood perfectly, I also understood the illogical nature of your question, hence my answer.

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Luke 1:67-75, Matthew 15:24, John 4:22).

You don't seem to understand the difference between an individual, and the collective nation.
Israel as a nation had been disbanded in 722bc. Obviously Israelites as a people still existed, either as captives or exiles, and other than by successful genocide, would always exist.
It is the latter Jesus addressed as lost sheep.

Peter and the 12 continue to preach to Israel exclusively in early Acts, following Luke 13:6-9, Acts 1:6 and Acts 3:6, so in the eyes of God, Israel was still God's favored nation then.

Would you agree?

Yes facts are facts.
Israelites were and are still a covenant people, but at that time were still a nation under judgement and exile, with the Judean portion under enemy occupation.
The disciples conflated the messianic scriptures for the second coming with the first coming, hence their final questions whether Jesus would restore the kingdom at that time, and His negative response.
ie. Israel was not a kingdom when Jesus departed.

Guojing · Dec 6, 2021

Francis Drake said:
I understood perfectly, I also understood the illogical nature of your question, hence my answer.

You don't seem to understand the difference between an individual, and the collective nation.
Israel as a nation had been disbanded in 722bc. Obviously Israelites as a people still existed, either as captives or exiles, and other than by successful genocide, would always exist.
It is the latter Jesus addressed as lost sheep.

Yes facts are facts.
Israelites were and are still a covenant people, but at that time were still a nation under judgement and exile, with the Judean portion under enemy occupation.
The disciples conflated the messianic scriptures for the second coming with the first coming, hence their final questions whether Jesus would restore the kingdom at that time, and His negative response.
ie. Israel was not a kingdom when Jesus departed.

There is nothing illogical about my question.

So long as Israel the nation is still God's favored nation, which you agreed that was still true in early Acts, Peter and the others understood that Matthew 28:18-20 could not mean they are to go to the gentiles.

That explains Peter's point to Cornelius in Acts 10:28, and why the Jewish believers criticized Peter in Acts 11:1-3.

So my point is, the so called Great Commission, whether found in Mark 16 or Matthew 28, could not be a command for the 12 to reach gentiles. Otherwise, Acts 10:28 and Acts 11:1-3 would make no sense.

spiritfilledjm · Dec 6, 2021

If the gifts were only for the Israelites, why does 1 Corinthians 14, written to the Greek church in Corinth exist?

topher694 · Dec 6, 2021

Francis Drake said:
I understood perfectly, I also understood the illogical nature of your question, hence my answer.

Exactly. It's like trying to have a discussion with a parrot.

Francis Drake · Dec 6, 2021

Guojing said:
There is nothing illogical about my question.

Other than proving you still don't understand the difference between God's treatment of a nation and His treatment of an individual.
Jericho was cursed for utter destruction, but God treated a prostitute, along with all her family, as covenant children.
And thousands of years later a rather shocked Peter would exclaim, “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him."

So long as Israel the nation is still God's favored nation, which you agreed that was still true in early Acts,

No I don't agree.
Your notion of 'favoured' is far too sloppy and imprecise, especially when the nation of Israel was obviously not being 'favoured', but judged by its mortal enemies, Rome.
Israel was a covenant nation which God was obliged to honour because Of Abraham.

Peter and the others understood that Matthew 28:18-20 could not mean they are to go to the gentiles.

This is completely untrue, and nothing like what the scriptures tell us or told them.
It is quite possible that at first hearing, the disciples didn't quite grasp what Jesus meant when he told them to go to all nations.

In the following Great Commission scriptures, no honest reader could possible twist the meaning of all nations to just being Israel.

Matt28v18And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [URL='http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-19.htm']19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[/URL]

Mark16v15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

Luke24v46Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And you are witnesses of these things.

That explains Peter's point to Cornelius in Acts 10:28, and why the Jewish believers criticized Peter in Acts 11:1-3.

So my point is, the so called Great Commission, whether found in Mark 16 or Matthew 28, could not be a command for the 12 to reach gentiles. Otherwise, Acts 10:28 and Acts 11:1-3 would make no sense.

Acts10 and 11 make perfect sense, once you take into account how often the disciples had previously misunderstood Jesus's instructions.
Thus it would take some time, and a kick up the pants for Peter, before the Jews fully accepted that Jesus's death had removed the wall between Jew and Gentile.

Guojing · Dec 6, 2021

Francis Drake said:
It is quite possible that at first hearing, the disciples didn't quite grasp what Jesus meant when he told them to go to all nations.

Acts10 and 11 make perfect sense, once you take into account how often the disciples had previously misunderstood Jesus's instructions.
Thus it would take some time, and a kick up the pants for Peter, before the Jews fully accepted that Jesus's death had removed the wall between Jew and Gentile.

I see, so you are using the "Peter and the other Jewish believers misunderstood" what Jesus meant in Matthew 28 and Mark 16, in order to explain why they said Acts 10:28 and Acts 11:1-3.

Alright then, thanks for clarifying. I understand better where you are coming from now.

Guojing · Dec 6, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
If the gifts were only for the Israelites, why does 1 Corinthians 14, written to the Greek church in Corinth exist?

One clue might be this

1 Corinthians was written years before Acts 28, before the Holy Spirit declared the entire nation will be blinded (Acts 28:25-28)

After Acts 28
In the book of Philippians 2, which was written after Acts 28, one the prison epistles,

25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.

27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.

In the book of Timothy, written after Acts 28 and at the end of Paul's life on Earth, he wrote

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities" (1 Tim 5:23)

2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

In all these 3 examples, Paul no longer possess the gift of healing, no more healing handkerchiefs.

Hidden In Him · Dec 7, 2021

Oscarr said:
As the Greek would say: εμβρόντητος, which describes some of the posts on this thread!

Depending on how it's translated, that's not a nice word, Lol.

spiritfilledjm said:
If the gifts were only for the Israelites, why does 1 Corinthians 14, written to the Greek church in Corinth exist?

Good point. I usually pin Cessationists with the argument that Joel 2:28-31 must certainly still be future tense, given that v.31 and the Day of the Lord weren't fulfilled during New Testament times. This forces most of them to adopt either a gap theory or spiritualize v.31 away, but one guy tried to argue that the passage applies only to the Jews during the end-times. It's a tougher argument to counter because the book obviously was written to the Jews first and foremost.

But how are we to interpret that the Lord poured His Spirit out upon the Gentiles in NT times but will not during the end-times? And your question is well put: Why does much of the New Testament teaching on how to operate in the gifts exist and why was it preserved by the Lord if the gifts would cease to be used within a generation?

spiritfilledjm · Dec 7, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
Depending on how it's translated, that's not a nice word, Lol.

Good point. I usually pin Cessationists with the argument that Joel 2:28-31 must certainly still be future tense, given that v.31 and the Day of the Lord weren't fulfilled during New Testament times. This forces most of them to adopt either a gap theory or spiritualize v.31 away, but one guy tried to argue that the passage applies only to the Jews during the end-times. It's a tougher argument to counter because the book obviously was written to the Jews first and foremost.

But how are we to interpret that the Lord poured His Spirit out upon the Gentiles in NT times but will not during the end-times? And your question is well put: Why does much of the New Testament teaching on how to operate in the gifts exist and why was it preserved by the Lord if the gifts would cease to be used within a generation?

One popular theory is that we're in the millennial kingdom already and that the rapture and tribulation was when Jerusalem was destroyed. They also put Revelation written at a much earlier time shortly before Jerusalem fell so now all that we're waiting for is armageddon and the new heaven and new earth to come down. I don't believe this at all personally.

Presbyterian Continuist · Dec 7, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
Depending on how it's translated, that's not a nice word, Lol.

Good point. I usually pin Cessationists with the argument that Joel 2:28-31 must certainly still be future tense, given that v.31 and the Day of the Lord weren't fulfilled during New Testament times. This forces most of them to adopt either a gap theory or spiritualize v.31 away, but one guy tried to argue that the passage applies only to the Jews during the end-times. It's a tougher argument to counter because the book obviously was written to the Jews first and foremost.

But how are we to interpret that the Lord poured His Spirit out upon the Gentiles in NT times but will not during the end-times? And your question is well put: Why does much of the New Testament teaching on how to operate in the gifts exist and why was it preserved by the Lord if the gifts would cease to be used within a generation?

Cessationists ignore actual church history. They decide not to link the church descending into formalism, ritual, overall authority of the bishops, the exclusion of the rank and file believers from the spiritual ministry of the church, replacing them with "priests" who conduct programmed liturgical services while the rank and file sit passively listening. Also, they ignore the inclusion of pagan practices that were introduced into the church during the reign of Constantine.

The truth is that the Holy Spirit will not fellowship with apostacy, so as the church became more and more apostate after the 1st Century, the gifts of the Holy Spirit declined more and more, until it came to the point where the gifts were exercised by a minority who were being ridiculed by the majority who were not exercising the gifts. Once services were taken over by an appointed clergy, and the authority of the bishops replaced the prophetic word, the gifts became a thing of the past.

But there were groups that worked against the apostacy of the established church, and who manifested the gifts; but they were brutally suppressed by the "orthodox" church and labeled as "heretical". All we have are the court transcripts where members of these groups were arrested and brought to trial. But we can read between the lines to get important clues of what these groups were really like. Sometimes more truth can be obtained about a Christian group through what their enemies would say against them.

At some time in the 19th Century, a theologian came up with the theory that the gifts ceased after the Apostolic time because the canon of Scripture was established. What what this theologian failed to include was that the canon of Scripture was maintained in the apostate church for over 1000 years. They had the words on the printed page, but no Holy Spirit to enlighten or energise the readers.

Also, the Scriptures were in Latin, understood only by the educated clergy, and it was a capital offence to possess a Bible in the language of the people, such as German or English. Many of the pioneer translators of the Bible into English lost their lives being burned at the stake. The established apostate church didn't want ordinary people to be able to read the Bible, because then people would discover the truth about the wide divergence between the practice of the established church and what the Scriptures were saying.

topher694 · Dec 7, 2021

Oscarr said:
Cessationists ignore actual church history. They decide not to link the church descending into formalism, ritual, overall authority of the bishops, the exclusion of the rank and file believers from the spiritual ministry of the church, replacing them with "priests" who conduct programmed liturgical services while the rank and file sit passively listening. Also, they ignore the inclusion of pagan practices that were introduced into the church during the reign of Constantine.

The truth is that the Holy Spirit will not fellowship with apostacy, so as the church became more and more apostate after the 1st Century, the gifts of the Holy Spirit declined more and more, until it came to the point where the gifts were exercised by a minority who were being ridiculed by the majority who were not exercising the gifts. Once services were taken over by an appointed clergy, and the authority of the bishops replaced the prophetic word, the gifts became a thing of the past.

But there were groups that worked against the apostacy of the established church, and who manifested the gifts; but they were brutally suppressed by the "orthodox" church and labeled as "heretical". All we have are the court transcripts where members of these groups were arrested and brought to trial. But we can read between the lines to get important clues of what these groups were really like. Sometimes more truth can be obtained about a Christian group through what their enemies would say against them.

At some time in the 19th Century, a theologian came up with the theory that the gifts ceased after the Apostolic time because the canon of Scripture was established. What what this theologian failed to include was that the canon of Scripture was maintained in the apostate church for over 1000 years. They had the words on the printed page, but no Holy Spirit to enlighten or energise the readers.

Also, the Scriptures were in Latin, understood only by the educated clergy, and it was a capital offence to possess a Bible in the language of the people, such as German or English. Many of the pioneer translators of the Bible into English lost their lives being burned at the stake. The established apostate church didn't want ordinary people to be able to read the Bible, because then people would discover the truth about the wide divergence between the practice of the established church and what the Scriptures were saying.

Well said

Francis Drake · Dec 7, 2021

Guojing said:
I see, so you are using the "Peter and the other Jewish believers misunderstood" what Jesus meant in Matthew 28 and Mark 16, in order to explain why they said Acts 10:28 and Acts 11:1-3.

The text clearly shows that.
Jesus had frequently challenged them for going off at a tangent from his teachings, so given the vision and rebuke Peter received on the roof top, it should be obvious to you that he still hadn't understood Jesus's "all nations" instruction.
But these were still early days and the first opportunity was just about to arise.

Alright then, thanks for clarifying. I understand better where you are coming from now.

You show me anywhere in the law that prohibited them from going into Cornelius's house or eating with them. Peter was still stuck in Pharisaical tradition.

Guojing · Dec 7, 2021

Francis Drake said:
The text clearly shows that.
Jesus had frequently challenged them for going off at a tangent from his teachings, so given the vision and rebuke Peter received on the roof top, it should be obvious to you that he still hadn't understood Jesus's "all nations" instruction.
But these were still early days and the first opportunity was just about to arise.

Alright, the term I would use is "anticipating revelation". That is how some people I have met reconcile Matthew 10:5 with Matthew 28:18-20.

That means when we read Paul revealing later in Ephesians 2:14 that the dividing wall between Jews and gentiles was broken by Christ at the cross, we project that revelation to early Acts and claim that Peter and the little flock "should have anticipated that".

That means they should have known that what Jesus commanded them in Matthew 10:5, not to go to the gentiles, was no longer a valid command, by the time they heard Matthew 28:18-20.

Guojing · Dec 7, 2021

Oscarr said:
Cessationists ignore actual church history. They decide not to link the church descending into formalism, ritual, overall authority of the bishops, the exclusion of the rank and file believers from the spiritual ministry of the church, replacing them with "priests" who conduct programmed liturgical services while the rank and file sit passively listening. Also, they ignore the inclusion of pagan practices that were introduced into the church during the reign of Constantine.

The truth is that the Holy Spirit will not fellowship with apostacy, so as the church became more and more apostate after the 1st Century, the gifts of the Holy Spirit declined more and more, until it came to the point where the gifts were exercised by a minority who were being ridiculed by the majority who were not exercising the gifts. Once services were taken over by an appointed clergy, and the authority of the bishops replaced the prophetic word, the gifts became a thing of the past.

But there were groups that worked against the apostacy of the established church, and who manifested the gifts; but they were brutally suppressed by the "orthodox" church and labeled as "heretical". All we have are the court transcripts where members of these groups were arrested and brought to trial. But we can read between the lines to get important clues of what these groups were really like. Sometimes more truth can be obtained about a Christian group through what their enemies would say against them.

At some time in the 19th Century, a theologian came up with the theory that the gifts ceased after the Apostolic time because the canon of Scripture was established. What what this theologian failed to include was that the canon of Scripture was maintained in the apostate church for over 1000 years. They had the words on the printed page, but no Holy Spirit to enlighten or energise the readers.

Also, the Scriptures were in Latin, understood only by the educated clergy, and it was a capital offence to possess a Bible in the language of the people, such as German or English. Many of the pioneer translators of the Bible into English lost their lives being burned at the stake. The established apostate church didn't want ordinary people to be able to read the Bible, because then people would discover the truth about the wide divergence between the practice of the established church and what the Scriptures were saying.

What do you think of what I have said to him here? Responding to the 'closed canon' argument against special revelations and sign gifts?

Presbyterian Continuist · Dec 7, 2021

Guojing said:
One clue might be this

1 Corinthians was written years before Acts 28, before the Holy Spirit declared the entire nation will be blinded (Acts 28:25-28)

After Acts 28
In the book of Philippians 2, which was written after Acts 28, one the prison epistles,

25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.

27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.

In the book of Timothy, written after Acts 28 and at the end of Paul's life on Earth, he wrote

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities" (1 Tim 5:23)

2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

In all these 3 examples, Paul no longer possess the gift of healing, no more healing handkerchiefs.

How do you explain Paul healing Publius in Malta of dysentery, and many others of their diseases. This happened after he was shipwrecked on his way to Rome as a prisoner.

Guojing · Dec 7, 2021

Oscarr said:
How do you explain Paul healing Publius in Malta of dysentery, and many others of their diseases. This happened after he was shipwrecked on his way to Rome as a prisoner.

Wasn't those before the holy spirit declared israel to be blinded as well, as I have said?

The key scriptures where Paul no longer have the gift of healing were found in Philippians and Timothy, as I have stated.

Hidden In Him · Dec 8, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
One popular theory is that we're in the millennial kingdom already and that the rapture and tribulation was when Jerusalem was destroyed. They also put Revelation written at a much earlier time shortly before Jerusalem fell so now all that we're waiting for is armageddon and the new heaven and new earth to come down. I don't believe this at all personally.

I actually do subscribe to the theory Revelation was written during the early 60s AD, based on internal evidence, but I don't buy for a minute that Daniel, Revelation, and the Day of the Lord were fulfilled during New Testament times. The Dominionist and Kingdom Now crowds are just nuts IMO, LoL. It's like taking your Bible and immediately throwing out about 15% of it before you've even opened the book.

Not my idea of thought-provoking eschatological analysis, Lol.

Hidden In Him · Dec 8, 2021

Oscarr said:
The truth is that the Holy Spirit will not fellowship with apostacy, so as the church became more and more apostate after the 1st Century, the gifts of the Holy Spirit declined more and more

This is what I teach as well. Signs and wonders were sent to confirm the word, and when the word has been corrupted it short-circuits the whole system.

Oscarr said:
At some time in the 19th Century, a theologian came up with the theory that the gifts ceased after the Apostolic time because the canon of Scripture was established. What what this theologian failed to include was that the canon of Scripture was maintained in the apostate church for over 1000 years. They had the words on the printed page, but no Holy Spirit to enlighten or energise the readers.

Are you speaking of someone in particular here, or just in general? I'd be interested to know who we can credit for the modern day Cessationist argument.

Francis Drake · Dec 8, 2021

Guojing said:
Alright, the term I would use is "anticipating revelation". That is how some people I have met reconcile Matthew 10:5 with Matthew 28:18-20.

Not heard it, but I can run with that.

That means when we read Paul revealing later in Ephesians 2:14 that the dividing wall between Jews and gentiles was broken by Christ at the cross, we project that revelation to early Acts and claim that Peter and the little flock "should have anticipated that".

I'm getting a little worried here, aren't we supposed to be arguing?

I am sure we have all 'learned' various bible truths over the years, but their significance doesn't dawn on us till much later, even years, when 'revelation' comes to our spirit.
Spiritual truths have always been spiritually understood.
Paul is a great example of this. He was a Pharisee of Pharisees, brought up at the feet of Gamaliel. Yet all that knowledge was ruled by his intellectual pride until his Damascus road experience, and a bit like Nebuchadnezzar, he was laid low by God. At least he didn't have to eat grass!

That means they should have known that what Jesus commanded them in Matthew 10:5, not to go to the gentiles, was no longer a valid command, by the time they heard Matthew 28:18-20.

Yes, 'should have', but we've all been there haven't we?

Are we in agreement here, because this has been my point all along?

Responding to the 'closed canon' argument against special revelations and sign gifts?

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