Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

Rapture Bound · Nov 5, 2021

Thoughts on Good Works :

The [below] lyrics contained in DC Talk's song "What If I Stumble?" really struck me as a sobering wake-up call for all those who profess to be followers of Jesus Christ :

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is 'Christians'
Who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
And walk out the door
And deny him by their lifestyle
That is what an unbelieving world, simply finds unbelievable.

Those who have been regenerated were created "unto good works" [Ephesians 2:10]
not in order to be justified or accepted before God, but because they have
received God's free gift of eternal life and have experienced the amazing grace
and forgiveness that was accomplished by Christ at Calvary's cross. [i.e. - they
have been justified - past, present & future tense - Romans 8:30].

Blood-bought believers are to be lights for Jesus in a very dark, sin-ridden
world. Those who have exercised saving faith will not downplay the vast necessity
and importance of good works [their words and actions] but rather endeavor to be
faithful ambassadors or representatives of the Kingdom of God [2 Corinthians 5:20], it is
simply in their "DNA" as a result of receiving new hearts at the new birth experience.
[2 Corinthians 5:17; Ezekiel 36:26].

When they stumble along the way, they are characterized by possessing a broken, contrite heart knowing that Christ will never leave or forsake them [Hebrews 13:5], for He has promised that He would not lose any that the Father gave Him [John 6:39]. All of Jesus' sheep hear his voice and will follow Him ...'once a sheep, always a sheep?'... oh yeah, it's true... it couldn't be stated any clearer than John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

Verse 27 tells us that all genuine believers or 'sheep' will follow Christ...not 'may follow Him', or 'follow Him for a limited time period and fall away thereafter'...they simply will follow Him. Can true believers disgrace the name of Christ at times? - absolutely, but for the most part the name of Christ is tainted by those who merely profess to be the genuine article.

prophecy_uk · Nov 6, 2021

Turning the grace of God into disgraceful lasciviousness is predicted, this much is absolute in that they blatantly display and fulfil it..

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Then we also know the grace of God is by not once doing what is disgraceful, as told too ( what vain persons hear the vain talkers words)..

Ephesians 5: Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Rapture Bound · Nov 6, 2021

prophecy uk replied, "Turning the grace of God into disgraceful lasciviousness is predicted, this much is absolute in that they blatantly display and fulfil it.."

There are many who really haven't grasped the nature and effects of grace upon a regenerate heart. Where have I even hinted at the notion that true believers will salivate at the opportunity of abusing grace by living according to their sinful natures? In fact, my post was presented in a way that emphasized the great importance of walking circumspectly before the Lord [Ephesians 5:15].

Titus 2:11-13, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

The Apostle Paul realized that the nature of God's saving grace would elude those who are caught up in a self-righteous works mentality; the forgiveness that is offered at the cross is simply 'too good to be true' in their minds [not saying this about you prophecy uk - just making a general statement].

Apparently, Paul foreseen the potential abuse of the teaching of God's grace in the hearts of those who have not experienced the new-birth and are yet in love with the world and their fallen fleshly natures.

Romans 6:1,"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

You said, "Turning the grace of God into disgraceful lasciviousness is predicted, this much is absolute in that [they] blatantly display and fulfil it.."

The real question here is , 'Who are the ["they"] that you speak of?' - It is those who have never undergone the radical change of nature that occurs at regeneration. Those who have experienced it have received new hearts and desires, and will not characteristically/habitually live in lasciviousness, they have been 'born-again' [1 John 3:9].

prophecy_uk · Nov 8, 2021

Rapture Bound said:
prophecy uk replied, "Turning the grace of God into disgraceful lasciviousness is predicted, this much is absolute in that they blatantly display and fulfil it.."

There are many who really haven't grasped the nature and effects of grace upon a regenerate heart. Where have I even hinted at the notion that true believers will salivate at the opportunity of abusing grace by living according to their sinful natures? In fact, my post was presented in a way that emphasized the great importance of walking circumspectly before the Lord [Ephesians 5:15].

Titus 2:11-13, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

The Apostle Paul realized that the nature of God's saving grace would elude those who are caught up in a self-righteous works mentality; the forgiveness that is offered at the cross is simply 'too good to be true' in their minds [not saying this about you prophecy uk - just making a general statement].

Apparently, Paul foreseen the potential abuse of the teaching of God's grace in the hearts of those who have not experienced the new-birth and are yet in love with the world and their fallen fleshly natures.

Romans 6:1,"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

You said, "Turning the grace of God into disgraceful lasciviousness is predicted, this much is absolute in that [they] blatantly display and fulfil it.."

The real question here is , 'Who are the ["they"] that you speak of?' - It is those who have never undergone the radical change of nature that occurs at regeneration. Those who have experienced it have received new hearts and desires, and will not characteristically/habitually live in lasciviousness, they have been 'born-again' [1 John 3:9].

If you ask who is they, who seem to speak the right thing, but are teaching deception, more is offered..

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

What deception is it, if it is easy to see through ?

The deception of satan is, that the whole world follows him, and hears him, and has the same feelings as that father, ( the father of lies) and if you have the Father that is true ( the Spirit of truth) then through that light, you see every hidden thing they try to hide away, excuse away, and easily reveal them.

It does not make them defeated, as the world goes after satan now, love has waxed cold, men are lovers of their own selves.

The popular talk in a time of falling away is self, how else would they fulfil being lovers of their own selves???????

It is fulfilled too easily, it is too humorous that they think they can talk about selfishness while claiming that is their godliness.

Rapture Bound · Nov 8, 2021

prophecy uk replied, "Turning the grace of God into disgraceful lasciviousness is predicted, this much is absolute in that [they] blatantly display and fulfil it.."

Then I asked, 'Who are the ["they"] that you speak of?', you responded by saying..

"If you ask who is they, who seem to speak the right thing, but are teaching deception, more is offered..

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

My current reply :
Then it appears that we are in agreement then, unless you are also implying that that false apostles of 2 Corinthians 11:13 are actually genuine believers. But it's very clear to me that these false apostles were/are merely professing Christians who are counterfeit Christians in realty; that is to say, they were "false brethren."

And this brings me to a very important point that many who believe in "LOS" (loss of salvation) either overlook or flat out deny ...when the Apostle Paul addresses a gathering
of people he often refers to them as 'brethren', although he realizes that there are potentially those present who have never actually been regenerated. The Apostle Paul cannot possibly know with certainty those who have and haven't been regenerated, so he uses the 'blanket term'..."brethren."

The Apostle Paul was keenly aware that this mixture [of wheat and tares] existed within the assemblies or gatherings of the followers of Christ, as displayed in verses such as :

2 Corinthians 11:26, "In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among [false brethren];

Galatians 2:4, "And that because of [false brethren] unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:"

1 John 2:19, "They went out [from us], but they were [not of us]; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

For these reasons, the Apostle Paul frequently employed what is called the preacher's "we"; Paul's use of the first-person plural "we" is simply a standard conversational convention or literary form found throughout the New Testament and used by everyone, even today. It is what might be called the "preacher's "we" in which the speaker or writer addresses his audience collectively.

When speakers today speak to an audience which consists of both Christians and non-Christians [most audiences contain both], they will say something like this ; "People hear me well. If we believe in Jesus, we will be saved. However, if we reject that offer we will forever perish." It is simply an appeal and warning to anyone and everyone [whether genuine believers or merely 'professing but not possessing' believers] in which the fundamental truths and their consequences are stated. This is why the preacher's "we" appears in so very many of the warning passages scattered through scripture. For example :

Romans 8:12-13, "Therefore, [brethren], [we] are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

When a person understands the concept of the preacher's "we", it becomes much easier to understand this warning passage. Those who live after the flesh shall die.. the warning is addressed to all professing believers ... whether they are genuine or not. However, it's tragic consequence is only applicable to those who in fact are living after the flesh. Nevertheless, the passage is designed to light a fire and extinguish the antinomian delusions of both groups.

Romans 8:9-10 "But ye are [not in the flesh], but [in the Spirit], [if] so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

All those who are genuine believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, those of this group are declared to be "not in the flesh" as the result of the regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
In 1 John we are told that all those in this group will not characteristically or habitually live according to their fleshly, sinful desires [1 John 3:6-9]. Such a lifestyle evidences that the necessary Holy Spirit regeneration of their fallen nature has actually occurred.

Those who continue to "live after the flesh" shall die, they will perish eternally as a result of their refusal to experience the new birth and it's guaranteed accompanying result---the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Genuine believers are said to be "in the Spirit" [Romans 8:9], and counterfeit believers [false brethren] are said to be "after the flesh"[Romans 8:5].

prophecy_uk · Nov 9, 2021

Rapture: "Those who continue to "live after the flesh" shall die, they will perish eternally as a result of their refusal to experience the new birth and it's guaranteed accompanying result---the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Genuine believers are said to be "in the Spirit" [Romans 8:9], and counterfeit believers [false brethren] are said to be "after the flesh"[Romans 8:5]."

The requirement here in Romans 8 says we are to suffer with Him, to be glorified together.

Enduring hardship as a good soldier of Christ, requires endurance, endurance comes by putting on all the armour of God, and remaining with it on. Taking it off, means you will not endure and fail.

As you are talking to me, just look in all history and see this to be true, that the good soldier endures and the bad one fails, how the wise ones avoid the dangers ( by fearing God their Captain) and do not fear the enemy, who says you cant fail and can even be without your armour, you are guaranted to not fail ( lies of dictators betrayers and infiltrators, and satan is our enemy)

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

2 Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Rapture Bound · Nov 9, 2021

prophecy uk replied, "The requirement here in Romans 8 says we are to suffer with Him, to be glorified together.

Enduring hardship as a good soldier of Christ, requires endurance, endurance comes by putting on all the armour of God, and remaining with it on. Taking it off, means you will not endure and fail.

As you are talking to me, just look in all history and see this to be true, that the good soldier endures and the bad one fails, how the wise ones avoid the dangers ( by fearing God their Captain) and do not fear the enemy, who says you cant fail and can even be without your armour, you are guaranted to not fail ( lies of dictators betrayers and infiltrators, and satan is our enemy)"

My Reply :

Again, the question in dispute here has to do with the identity of the "good soldier of Christ" and the "bad". Those who believe in LOS [loss of salvation] would say that the good soldier represents a genuine believer who may or may not endure suffering; failure to do so will result in the loss of their salvation ... those who fail to endure are "bad soldiers of Christ."

Those who advocate OJAJ [once justified, always justified] would say that the good soldier represents a truly justified person, who, as a by-product [or the inevitable result of] of their new birth - the radical change of nature [new creation/new heart], will not fail to endure suffering/hardship [whatever that suffering and hardship entails]. In other words, a "bad soldier of Christ" really doesn't exist. Those who are "bad soldiers", were never actually rooted "in Christ" at all ... and are in fact "false brethren" [if there was such a thing as "bad soldiers of Christ" ---mind stretching --- lol] ... the enduring of hardship provides further evidence of the genuineness of a person's conversion experience.

With that said ...

Both sides, LOS and OJAJ, are generally in agreement by saying that endurance [in the faith] is a necessary condition that must be met in order to ultimately attain the final
phase of salvation ... glorification. I say "generally" since there are some versions of OSAS - once saved, always saved, [usually within the "Free Grace" Movement] that makes the mistake [in my opinion] of denying that enduring [by faith] is a necessary condition [a condition that must and will exist] in order for the attainment of glorification. Some even go as far as saying that a person could die as an avid atheist and still enter heaven as long as they at one point in their lives 'believed in Jesus' as their Savior ... a doctrine that I surely deny [their definition of 'believing in Jesus'- as well as
their definition of 'saving faith'].

For these reasons I am careful to distinguish myself as a OJAJ advocate, which teaches the Preservation of the Saints", as opposed to the OSAS camp [where a wide spectrum of beliefs exist, including the basic tenets of the "Free Grace" Movement].

dms1972 · Nov 12, 2021

Jeshu said:
i believe that a believer can become an unbeliever and from then on forfeits his or her salvation, but this does not mean that when this person did confess Christ as Lord is lost, rather the believing self was killed by unbelief and will be raised by Christ to rule with Him over life on Judgement Day.

Do you mean by "from then on forfeits their salvation" - forfeits the present tense aspect of salvation ie. being saved?

Rapture Bound · Nov 20, 2021

Make Your Calling and Election Sure - A Reply to prophecy uk :

Here are some additional thoughts concerning your post [#86] ...

The theme of your post was that of the necessity of endurance in the life of the believer,
and most specifically, the question of whether or not any genuine believer will in fact fail
to persevere in the faith, resulting in the forfeiture of their heavenly inheritance.

The question at hand is this, "do the various scriptures [warning passages] that you listed provide compelling evidence for the LOS [loss of salvation] position? ... or should those texts be perceived in the manner the OJAJ [once justified, always justified] camp views them?"

In a nutshell, My Molinist, OJAJ position would say that the various warning passages serve as one of the necessary means God utilizes in preserving or keeping true believers in the faith, on the path of righteousness; that is, God does not limit Himself to the effects of those warning passages in order to fulfill His promise to preserve His children [Philippians 1:6].

The promise of God's preservation of all genuine believers is commonly referred to as "the preservation of the saints" [POS] doctrine. Therefore, since POS is both promised and provided by God, OJAJ must also necessarily hold true. I prefer the acronym 'OJAJ'
[a designation that I personally implement in place of POS] since it places the emphasis
squarely on the reality and permanence of the doctrine of forensic justification. The
permanent status of all those who have been justified [OJAJ] is simply intrinsic or
naturally belonging to the doctine of POS. [thereby technically making me a
Molinist/OJAJ/POS advocate].

Let's now turn our attention to one of the foremost warning passages that you listed that
has been the source of so much controversy and confusion.

2 Peter 1:7-10 :

7 "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be

barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten

that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election

sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

Verse 10 contains two phrases central to the controversy - "brethren, make your calling and election sure" and, "for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall."

There is much to unpack here, so it seems best to address those phrases separately. Let's start will the latter ...

"for if ye do these things, [listed in verses 5-7], ye shall never fall."

Who is being addressed here?, I would say genuine believers as evidenced in both verses 4,9, and 11 ... verse 4, "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust'...verse 9, "and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins" ... verse 11, "For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

There are those who claim that the consequence of "falling" ["fall" - Strongs NT 4417 ;
offend, cause to stumble ... A form of pipto; to trip, i.e. (figuratively) to err, sin, fail
(of salvation) -- fall, offend, stumble] is not the forfeiture of eternal life by placing
the emphasis on the word "abundantly" in verse 11 .."ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." They claim it is merely an "abundant" entrance that may be suffered as loss, not the entrance itself.

From my vantage point it appears much more likely that a falling unto eternal destruction is what is view here. I would point to the phrase that precedes our phrase at hand as evidence for my assertion ... "brethren, make your calling and election sure." Since the "election" spoken of in this verse is clearly in reference to salvation/eternal life, it is eternal life that is at stake. Where I differ from the LOS [as well as the traditional Reformed position] at this point is by asserting that although genuine believers are the subject at hand, they will nevertheless be persevered by the hand of God and will in fact receive their Heavenly inheritance [1 Peter 1:3-6; Phil.1:6; John 6:37-40; 2 Tim.1:12; and many more].

All genuine believers will in fact give due diligence and manifest the character traits
[listed in 2 Peter:5-7] by virtue of their Holy Spirit regenerated nature [Titus 3:5]
received at the new birth [John 3:3-8]. It has been said that many Reformed theologians
preferred the use of the term "perseverance of the saints" in order to imply the necessity
of endurance [a safeguard of sorts against any kind of 'easy believism' ... as well as a
shield against any denial of the true, lasting effects of the new birth experience].

The doctrine of perseverance teaches that all true believers will indeed persevere [by
faith] in the faith until the end of their lives. However, others have expressed concern
that this term puts too much emphasis on the faith of the believer, rather than the grace of God. Instead, they [like myself] would suggest that it would be more useful and effective to use the term 'preservation' in order to underscore God's faithfulness to His people despite their imperfections and shortcomings. Therefore, a fuller understanding of the issue could be summed up by the following concept ... "perseverance through preservation."

All true believers must persevere in the faith, despite the many peaks and valleys of their spiritual journey. But equally true, all true believers will persevere in the faith because
of the sustaining work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts and wills [Philippians 2:13, "For
it is God which worketh in you both to will and do of his good pleasure"].

All those who have been elected by the Father, redeemed by the Son, and regenerated by the Holy Spirit will finally and certainly be brought that final phase of their salvation [i.e. - glorification] on the last day through the sovereign grace of God. All those who are chosen, called, and regenerated by God are kept by God.

Throughout this discussion of our original text [2 Peter 1:7] it is imperative to keep in
mind that the operative word here is "genuine" [believers]. Those of the LOS camp believe that a genuine believer's justified status is not determined or fixed, but rather exists in a sort of 'fluid' state. Therefore, in turn, this logically places those of that mindset in a perpetual state of flux and insecurity concerning their election and eternal destination [just another example of the supreme importance of understanding and embracing forensic or "imputed" justification of the believer]. Refer to my post #55 [page 3] where I provide evidence for my claim that no genuine believer will ever forfeit their eternal life :
Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

The Apostle Peter, in the first chapter of his first epistle, established this very truth
[i.e. - the permanency of genuine saving faith] so that his readers would be able to
understand the harder to comprehend passages that we now find in the first chapter of his second epistle. 2 Peter 3:16, "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these
things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 2:10 certainly qualifies to be one of those 'hard to understand' scriptures in light of the fact that it requires a solid working knowledge of the doctrines of predestination/election to salvation and it's relationship to the type of faith that is genuine and 'saving' [regenerative] in it's nature.

Concerning the other key phrase in 2 Peter 1:10, " make your calling and election sure", it will be the topic of a separate, future post. This additional 'part of the equation' will
provide an even fuller, overall explanation of 2 Peter 1:7-10 as seen through the lens of my Molinist, OJAJ perspective.

Faithful777 · Nov 25, 2021

Making your election sure, is by having the sacrificial love of Christ in you, what else is charity..

2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Rapture Bound · Nov 29, 2021

Make Your calling and Election sure - A Reply to prophecy uk - Part 2

"brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:" [2 Peter 1:10]

One of the main points of disagreement between my Molinist, OJAJ [once justified, always justified] and LOS [loss of salvation] camps can be represented by the following question ...

"Is a genuine believer's calling and election sure?"

As stated in Part 1, both sides are generally agreed that "election" here is in reference to salvation/eternal life. At first glance the phrase "make your calling and election sure" may seem to be implying that a believer's election [unto eternal life] is not secured until the point of their death [the assumption and assertion made by the LOS camp]. But is this the case? From my Molinist, OJAJ perspective, I do not believe so.

William Lane Craig rightly calls Molinism "one of the most fruitful theological ideas ever conceived. For it would serve to explain not only God's foreknowledge of the future, but divine predestination as well." Additionally, through the proper application of certain underlying principles contained within the scope of it's system, it provides valuable insight to our text and question at hand.

There is an apparent conflict between various texts on the topic of the believer's security. I say "apparent" due to my firm belief that there are not any genuine contradictions between any of the given texts contained in the scriptures. The contradictions exist solely in our minds, due to our failure to successfully reconcile them.

There are texts that speak of the security of the individual believer - that he will persevere to the end, and that he will not fall away from his justified status "in Christ".
On the other hand, we have equally clear texts that warn seriously about the dangers of apostasy, falling from grace, and forfeiting salvation.

As most of you on the soteriology forum are already keenly aware of, quoting isolated texts from each position surely does not qualify as making any type of significant progress towards arriving at a solution to the dilemma at hand. This type of approach simply leads to yet another dead-end street, and as a result, many unfortunately abandon their quest for the answer.

Obviously, what is needed here is the utilization of a different path, another method by which we can arrive at both an intellectually and scripturally satisfying conclusion. Unfortunately, there are various reasons that can be attributed to the Molinist's solution to the dilemma being a minority position. Those reasons can be attributed to factors ranging from people simply being unaware of it, to misunderstanding it's true nature, to the outright rejection of it due to a person's refusal to depart from their long-held theological tradition [often times, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary].

Nevertheless, I believe that Molinism provides the best explanation of all the biblical data... not every answer, no theological system can provide that, each must appeal at some point, to one degree or another, to some sense of mystery involved. In the case of Molinism it mainly lies in the realm of God's omniscience, a much better place for it to exist than the consistent 5-point Calvinist's doctrine of exhaustive divine determinism [EDD], which places it in the realm of God omnipotence.

The following eye-opening video displays Molinism's unique contribution to the dilemma - the "Can/Won't Model of Perseverance" ..."Doctrine of Salvation Part 15: Analysis of the Perseverance of the Saints" <

>

The Molinist makes three basic truth statements :

(1) the two sets of texts actually exist in two different logical categories, and therefore are not contradictory.

(2) God has actualized a possible world where all true born-again believers will freely persevere to the end, though it is possible for them to choose otherwise.

(3) God uses warning passages as just one of many means to keep true believers from falling away.

It's application to our main question, "Is a genuine believer's calling and election sure?" looks like this ...

The subject at hand needs to be addressed by proposing two distinct questions ...

(1) Can any elect person fall away?

(2) Will any elect person fall away?

These two questions are very different, and a person's ability to comprehend that distinction will tremendously aid in their understanding of the solution.

It would indeed be a contradiction to say “you can and cannot lose your salvation” or “salvation loss is possible and yet impossible”. But that is not the position I take. I take that while it is possible for one to lose their salvation, this possibility will never become actualized. Just because something is possible doesn't mean that it will happen. Being trampled by a herd of elephants is something that could happen to me in my lifetime. That does not mean that it will, in fact, happen to me. And should I never actually get trampled by a herd of elephants during my lifetime, that fact in no way negates the possibility that I could have done otherwise (it was certainly within my ability or capacity to have done so). refer to my posts #1 [page 1] and #42 [page 3] for a more complete explanation. < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

Rapture Bound · Dec 6, 2021

Make Your calling and Election sure - A Reply to prophecy uk - Part 3

"brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure" [2 Peter 1:10]

When it comes to the topic of election to salvation and predestination, the golden text that we turn to ["The Golden Chain of Redemption"] is found in Romans 8:29-30, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

God's perspective on glorification :

God has predestined or predetermined that all who would place their trust in Christ's atoning work alone as their only hope of being accepted as righteous before God [i.e - the elect] will in fact experience a future glorification. All who have experienced this justification before God have already been glorified in the eyes of God; they are now simply playing out in real time the intermediate stage of their promised salvation [i.e. their sanctification] ... salvation = justification + sanctification + glorification. Therefore, from God's perspective, the salvation of all those who have effectually been called [and therefore elected to salvation] is a "done deal."

Those of the LOS [loss of salvation] mindset are perplexed at the apostle Paul's "presumption" to tack on a final past tense [aorist] verb [i.e. - "glorified"] to the so-called "Golden Chain" of salvation in Romans 8:30. How could Paul say that believers are glorified just as they are already foreknown, predestined, called, and justified? Paul links "glorified" so closely with the other four verbs to drive home the sheer certainty of what will transpire in all those who have been justified.

According to the sequence beginning in Rom 8:29, the elect are predestined “to be conformed to the image of his Son”. God has purposed and determined to imprint all those who belong to Christ with the image of the second Adam. Although this conformity or "likeness" is most likely initiated in part at the point of the believer's regeneration, it will not attain it's complete fulfillment until that time when the elect receive the redemption of their bodies [i.e. resurrected, glorified bodies] at some point subsequent to the their physical death.

If justification means being freed from the penalty of sin, if transformation means being gradually freed from the power of sin, then glorification means to be freed from the very presence of sin. The future “glory” means entrance into the new creation, to dwell in God’s new world, in God’s eschatological reign, among the glorified host of God’s people.

The ultimate redemption of the body is seen in passages such as ...

Philippians 3:21, "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

"Romans 8:23, "Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body."

Our perspective on glorification :

You may now be wrestling with the following question ... "why are we told to diligently make our calling and election "sure" if it is already certain?"

It appears that the answer is related to the very different natures that God and man possess. God, being omniscient, is certain of the outcome, while we [being very far removed from all-knowingness] may experience doubts and fears concerning our ultimate destiny. Keep in mind that some [who merely profess and suppose themselves to be among the elect] have very good reason to be concerned about that outcome since they have yet to experience justification, and therefore will not experience the redemption of their bodies unless they exercise a saving faith in Christ at some future point in time.

The word "sure," in our text means firm, steadfast, secure. Here the reference must be to "themselves", that is, they were so to secure the reality within themselves that they were truly among the number of the elect. It cannot refer to God, for no act of theirs could make it more certain on His part if they actually had been effectually called and therefore elected to salvation.

When a person exercises a genuine, saving faith, the type of faith that receives the benefits of Christ's atoning work, it will always result in that person's justification, sanctification, and glorification. So, the critical questions now become, "are we experiencing the sanctifying or transformational effects of the Holy Spirit's regenerative power? and, "what is the evidence that a person has truly been born again?... that they have been numbered among the elect. We should always keep in mind, that in the scheme in question, the sanctification of the saved is in view just as much as the foreordaining element of election [thereby also making it a necessary a part of the equation].

It is certainly possible to make our calling and election sure, that is, if we can determine the fact that we are true Christians. So in essence, the thought here really revolves back to Paul's exhortation given in 2 Cor.13:5, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? [the question of a believer's genuineness is more full addressed in my post #55 - page 3].

testifier_uk · Dec 7, 2021

If some believed they were elect, but are merely fooling themselves, is it only them who should be worried( concerned) about not making their calling and election sure ?

2 peter 1 begins with stating who this entire chapter is aimed at, it is speaking to them that HAVE OBTAINED LIKE PRECIOUS FAITH THROUGH CHRIST...

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

The elect ( the saved from this wicked untoward world) have then done all as God says in all passages, they have put on charity

2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Peter states specifically, this is addressed to the ones who know these things, ( as the beginning of the chapter also said this is to those who have obtained like faith)

2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

If you pass over to chapter 3, the beginning of this shows the same message is continued, how Peter is stirring up the pure minds by way of remembrance, to remember all the warnings from all of the Apostles of the Lord which are to BE MINDFUL OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE APOSTLES OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR...

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

The scoffers are against these warning messages from the Lord, and they confirm them by that denial.

What manner of men we ought to be in all HOLY CONVERSATION AND GODLINESS...

2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

The same scoffers wrest the scriptures ( unto their own destruction) and the ones who have obtained like precious faith ( saved from this untoward wicked world and required to make their calling and election sure) BEWARE THEY ARE NOT LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED, THEY BEWARE TO NOT FALL FROM THEIR OWN STEDFASTNESS, TO GROW IN GRACE WHICH IS IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Confirming 2 Peter 1, how the elect add charity, which ,must be in them( Put on Christ/charity the bond of perfectness) to not be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ ( or they will end up not being saved from the error of the wicked)

2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Rapture Bound · Dec 8, 2021

testifier_uk replied, "If some believed they were elect, but are merely fooling themselves, is it only them who should be worried( concerned) about not making their calling and election sure ?"

To rephrase your question [without altering it's essence] ... "should those who are genuinely elect be worried about forfeiting their calling and election? [feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and if so, please reword it so I can understand your question better].

In 2 Peter 1:1, we are told that Peter's exhortation was addressed "to them who have obtained like precious faith." All those truly elect of God will desire to become more Christ-like ["conformed to the image of His son" - Romans 8:29] in their manner of living. Peter gives them practical instructions concerning their pursuance of it in verses 5-8. In verse 3 we find that God has called us "to glory and virtue." The "glory" here referring to our present, on-going sanctifying process.

The key components at hand here are two-fold; our diligence in the securing of the knowledge that we have been justified before God, and to be more specific, that we are actual participants in the sanctifying process of the Holy Spirit ... not in the maintaining of that justified status. Here we discover the necessity of being able to distinguish between God's justification of a person and their sanctification. For the elect, justification is an event that is past tense [fixed, inalterable], while sanctification is a present [fluctuating] on-going process that will continue until physical death.

The evidence of a person's justification and sanctification is both inward and outward. Outward in the sense of manifesting [to one degree or another] the fruit of the Holy Spirit [Luke 6:43-45], and inward by the inner witness of the Holy Spirit [that they have been declared as righteous before God - Romans 8:16].

The "worrying" element involved here pertains to the lack of [in the case of the elect], or total absence [in the case of the non-elect] of the evidence of a person's professed experience of justification and sanctification... not as it pertains to convincing others of that experience, but of the knowing of it's reality within themselves.

testifier_uk · Dec 9, 2021

Answering questions of Gods words, is best answering them by Gods words ( men's words are a poor substitute)

Seeing as you quoted one verse about the fruit of the Holy Spirit, again that is charity, and charity is never described as an ongoing process, that is wishful thinking, charity is Christ we put on and charity cannot be an ongoing sanctifying( growing in holiness) as charity is the bond of perfectness and charity and sanctification is to be sanctified once and for all by belief in the risen body of Christ whom we put on and who dwells in us ( all as simply confirmed)..

1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Righteous before God is the same as Apostle Paul's testimony, remember it:

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

1 Corinthians 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

I know, you are asking me if Paul not seeking his own profit, but the profit of many others instead, was Paul putting charity ( putting the Lord Jesus Christ) on ?

Yes is the answer and it is also told and testified to be the only way:

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

GoldenKingGaze · Dec 17, 2021

Rapture Bound said:
"Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?" Right here is where the unique contribution of Molinism is perhaps best demonstrated and utilized - via the Molinist model of perseverance.

Many Bible students have been frustrated to the point of giving up on their pursuit of arriving at a intellectually satisfying and scriptural based answer. Tragically, they have come to the point where they simply write it off as "mystery".

On one side of the debate a litany of scriptures are recited as evidence that a genuinely regenerated believer can forfeit their salvation, while the other side says they cannot.

The great distinction that those who hold to the Molinist model of perseverance (like myself) is seen in the fact that they do not deny that there are certain verses or portions of scripture (warning passages) that do in fact say that a regenerate believer can forfeit their salvation (such as 2 Peter 2:20).

This perspective clearly differs from the widely accepted position amongst those who believe a genuine believer will not ever lose that salvation that was gifted them at the point of their new birth. This camp claims that all of those warning passages are directed to those who are merely professing, but not possessing believers.

Tragically, many have either not been exposed to the principles of Molinism, or reject them because they have not studied them sufficiently ; and as in most things, the tendency is to reject the minority viewpoint. But keep in mind that the eternal security of the believer is a subject that contains many components to it that are very complex and therefore need to be addressed on both a scriptural and philosophical plane (which Molinism provides). 2 Peter 3:16 tells us," as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

The following excerpts come from an article entitled, "Eternal Security? a Molinist Perspective (part 4)" - by hampton45

The Molinist view would make three basic claims.

(1) The two sets of texts are actually in two different logical categories, and therefore are not contradictory.
(2) God has actualized a possible world where all true born-again believers will freely persevere to the end, though it is possible for them to choose otherwise.
(3) God uses the warning passages, as just one of many means to keep true born-again believers from falling away.

First, we must recognize that the two sets of texts are not contradictory because they occupy two separate logical categories. One set is modal (what can happen, referring to possibilities), while the other set is what philosophers call de facto (what will happen, referring to actualities). Just because something is possible, does not mean that it will be actualized. Just because something can happen, doesn’t mean that it will happen. Here’s an illustration. It is possible that I wreck my car tomorrow, but that does not mean that I will wreck my car tomorrow. Similarly, it is possible for me to choose to stop writing right now, since it is past my bedtime, but that does not mean that I will stop writing. I am having too much fun. We would indeed have a contradiction if we affirmed that one stream of texts says that a believer can lose their salvation, and the other stream of texts says that a believer cannot lose their salvation. But that is not what the Molinist affirms. Rather, the Molinist says that one stream of texts teaches that a believer can lose their salvation, and the other stream of texts teaches that a believer will not lose their salvation. This is why Eric Minton calls this Molinist model of perseverance the “Can/Won’t” model.

Therefore, we must keep the two questions distinct in our mind.

(1) Can a true believer fall away?
(2) Will a true believer fall away?

We can take these questions to the biblical text and see if they are answered differently. I contend that they are. The warning passages cited by the advocate of conditional security make it clear that a true believer can in principle forfeit his salvation. However, the promise passages cited by the advocate of unconditional security make it clear that a true believer will in fact never forfeit his salvation. The warning passages either explicitly use the language “if” or imply it, noting only possibilities. The promise passages either explicitly use the language “will” or imply it, noting actualities. See the table below for some examples.

(1) Modal Statements on Eternal Security (what can happen/possibilities) = (A)
(2) De Facto Statements about Eternal Security (what will happen/actualities) = (B)

(A) if indeed you remain grounded and steadfast in the faith and are not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard. (Col 1:23)
(B) I give them eternal life, and they will never never perish. (John 10:28)

(A) if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start. (Heb.3:14)
(B) I am sure of this, that he who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ. (Phil 1:6)

(A) For if having escaped the world's impurity through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first. (2 Pet 2:20)
(B) ...as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:7b - 8)

(A) ...if you remain in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off (Rom 11:22)
(b) The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory forever and ever. Amen. (2 Tim 4:18)

Having distinguished these logical categories, one can better understand the second claim of the Molinist- namely that God has actualized a possible world where all true believers can freely reject Christ but will not. Those terms may be new to some. I am assuming in this article that one has a good grasp of Molinism. But I will give a very brief overview here.

God’s omniscience consists of three types of knowledge. He has natural knowledge- he knows everything that could happen. That is to say he knows everything that is logically possible. God also has foreknowledge- he knows everything that will happen in the future. But God also possesses a third type of knowledge that logically proceeds his natural knowledge and precedes his foreknowledge. Because it lies between these two types, it has been named middle knowledge. It is with this type of knowledge that God knows everything that would happen in any given set of circumstances. In a more philosophically rigorous sense, through middle knowledge God knows the truth value of all counterfactual propositions. So, for example, God knows whether the following counterfactual proposition is true or false- “if Jordan Hampton was the Roman prefect at the time of Christ, he would have condemned Jesus to crucifixion.” In God’s natural knowledge this is a logically possible scenario. However, there are other logically possible scenarios as well. I’m thinking of the possibility that I would not have condemned Jesus to crucifixion. So, God knows what could happen. Since I never was the Roman prefect though, God could not have known the truth or falsity of that counterfactual proposition through his foreknowledge. His foreknowledge only includes knowledge of the things that actually will happen. But it never did happen that I was the Roman prefect. So, God knows the truth of this counterfactual proposition through his middle knowledge, what I would have freely chosen to do under those circumstances.

So with that very brief introduction to Molinism, now you can begin to imagine how this would apply to the topic of eternal security. Through God’s middle knowledge, he knows the exact set of circumstances in which I would freely accept his offer of salvation, but later freely reject him and fall away. God also knows the exact circumstances in which I would freely accept his offer of salvation and persevere to the end. My contention is that God has actualized a world in which all true believers are put in circumstances under which they will freely persevere to the end though they still possess the freedom to do otherwise. This is only possible through God’s middle knowledge though. God is able to guarantee my perseverance, while leaving me the possibility of forfeiting my salvation. God can do this because he knows precisely what I would do with my freedom under any set of circumstances, and he knows what circumstances to place me in such that I will not use my freedom to forfeit my faith in Christ.

Having defended the second contention of the Molinist view of eternal security, I will move to the third and final claim- God uses the warning passages as just one of many means to keep true born-again believers from falling away. The reason I include this final claim in my Molinistic argument for eternal security is that someone may object to my argument at this point and say that the warning passages are meaningless or purposeless if a true believer will not fall away. Why would God need to warn them if he already knows that they will not fall? The Molinist response is that if God did not give the warnings, then some true believers would fall away. Notice how I said that. That is a counterfactual about which God knows the truth value via his middle knowledge. If that is difficult to grasp, let me briefly describe it another way. Here goes...

Prior to God creating the world, he had a range of possible worlds he could create, each unique in the people who who make it up, and the affairs they would engage in. So God chose to create a world in which the maximal number of people are saved and the fewest are lost based on the their own free choices. For every single person in that world, God chose a meticulous set of conditions for their entire life. Conditions like the time they would be born, the place they would grow up in, the family they would be born into, the school they would attend, the job they would work, the group of friends they would surround themselves with, etc. Now prior to creating this world God knew (via his middle knowledge) the exact conditions to put an individual in that would result in that person freely choosing to follow Jesus. God also knew (via his middle knowledge) the exact conditions to put that same individual in so that they would freely choose to follow Jesus their entire life, never falling away. The Molinist would say that among the many conditions that God would have to put that individual, one of those conditions is exposure to warnings of the fate he or she would suffer if they denied Christ. On this understanding, the warning passages of scripture are a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for Christians to freely persevere. So, the Molinist contends that God knew he needed to give these warnings in scripture or else at least some people would not freely persevere. And since God desires that all true believers would persevere he uses the warnings as a means to that end.

An analogy would be like a mother telling her child not to touch the hot iron or the child will be severely burned. Had the warning not been given, the child would have touched the hot iron. But the warning gives the child the motivation necessary to freely choose not to touch the hot iron. The mother used the warning as a means to protect the child. Similarly, God uses the warnings of punishment for apostasy to protect us from it. Now, I do not want to suggest that the warning passages are the only means that God can use to help someone persevere. I am contending that every single minute event in their life is ultimately aimed at them persevering to the end. Worshipping God in song, regularly meeting with and being encouraged by believers at church, prayer, fasting, studying God’s word are all examples of the means he uses to help us persevere. For me, God has used apologetics to help me persevere through significant challenges to my faith. And on this Molinist view, God also uses the promise passages to help encourage us that we will persevere.

So in summary, I contend that the traditional positions of the POS, OSAS, and CS make sense of only part but not all of the biblical data with regard to eternal security. Each side has what I consider an unnatural or forced interpretation that does not fit well at certain points. However, I hope to have persuaded you that Molinism can make good sense of both streams of texts. The key is that we see each set of passages in separate logical categories, which the text itself seems to do. Then we can affirm that a true believer can fall away, but a true believer never will. God has actualized a possible world in which they will have all the means necessary to freely persevere. He uses warnings as well as promises, and many other features of our lives to do so. The only question now that could lead one to fear that they will not persevere is if they are not sure that they are truly born-again. If you know that you are in fact a child of God then you can rest knowing that you will persevere. As Dr. Kenneth Keathley said “perseverance should be viewed more as a promise than a requirement.”

Note : "POS" = perseverance of the saints : "OSAS" = once saved, always saved ; "CS" = conditional security. God Bless!

Is this to say that God uses His middle knowledge and other knowledge and power to predestine any to lose their eternal life in paradise?

I recall throughout the whole Bible God is present with Israel to save them, often profoundly manifested. Jonah in Ninevah preached successfully for their salvation. Jesus present with Peter et al managed to save them. Jesus said to Martha that the better thing was to listen to Him and not prepare food... and that He would not let her take away the better thing from her sister Mary. But if He wasn't there?

Jesus taught the disciples that they would not be left as orphans, and this presence and power local to them, together with the sure "I will" confident and positive faith matching attitude made their salvation. By His presence and power He'd save Paul again and again. It is like this for all of us. It is like He is a seed we receive by faith, that must take root in us, or it will die. It needs, soil, sun and water.

Does Molinism teach that the towns in Israel that rejected Jesus, were predestined so, and He says Sodom under the same opportunity, would have been saved?

And God speaks well of Ezekiel, that if under the same tests of hardship to persevere, other greats like was it Noah and Moses would have failed? This looks like middle knowledge.

It brings to mind, theodicy and the creations of vast numbers of angels.

Does Molinism hold that infants who never live to see the light of day, are saved or lost dependent on middle knowledge? Or does God let them know in Heaven that they cannot always boast?

Also I think that God not only looked at the maximum number of salvations but also how greatly the saints would shine.

And Hebrews 6:6 matters as well. Telling the Hebrews there is an eternal sin, possible for all and now a reality for some today. Does God let some go?

I think Pharaoh Amenhotep 2 in growing up in contempt for Hebrew slaves learned to look down on their God. And so grace first intended to save, in the second place, hardened his heart. Something like that happened to me. Jesus' blood applied to me when I was 21, made my heart clean and at peace, but in a rush at 27 in confusion, and my heart became hard. Same man same decade.

So again, babies who pass before baptism, are they saved, or lost? I propose to you that Hitler had an identical twin brother, who passed away before becoming a fetus. And say the same thing of Acts' Cornelius and Peter?

GoldenKingGaze · Dec 17, 2021

The Truth and the Grace, the Gospel and the near Kingdom, the preacher and the power and the presence of God make that moment when a woman or man may accept grace and live. In confusion, because of demonic manifestations or people who come to disrupt us with screaming, a person can lose their focus from God and accidentally harden their heart to God.

Molin did not live in revival, amidst grace, and Truth was unclear to him, only having literature and no rhema words of God. Molin may never have experienced being repentant and forgiven and never saw into the light of life, that those who die go into.

In Hebrews 6 we read of a people of God, who had experienced and received much grace and Truth, from salvation to the power of the resurrection and the Gospel actually from Peter and James and John... even infants amidst this could have been born again! But somehow they were not fully upright. They needed retraining in the basics and were warned of a sin from which they could never find repentance and forgiveness, an eternal sin.

This sin involved tasting well all of God's graces and having all the Truth, but then going to the Pharisees, and rejoining them, who claimed the right thing to do was kill Jesus. So if the went for the easier life, got property and protection, and rejected Jesus, grace and Truth, there was no way back. They had been given every avenue of repentance and life, to reject it all meant no possible help or grace, to repent with. And Paul or another, assured them that this was not what was expected in their case, in 1st century Jerusalem.

But some people today, who entered into revival have committed the eternal sin. God did not cause it. Did not tempt them. We pray, "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." We need to keep drinking the living water, stay in the rest of salvation, work out our salvation in fear and trembling, keep receiving grace, revise the Truth, watch our hearts of love and eyes regarding temptation and preoccupations... independence and yet also fellowship matter. Regular worship and petitioning with gifts of knowledge are needed for high holiness, to the end and in regards to terror threats.

Sickness, end times food shortages and betrayals, wars, small children... can put pressure on us and love can grow cold, and a woman who feels after revival that she missed years of romantic enjoyment may leave and commit adultery and then she cannot return. Lust of the eyes and flesh, pride in remaining beauty and sexual sin and she was gone. She needed more grace.

Rapture Bound · Dec 17, 2021

GoldenKingGaze replied [post #96], "Is this to say that God uses His middle knowledge and other knowledge and power to predestine any to lose their eternal life in paradise?"

Short answer ... no. Let me first say as a OJAJ [Once Justified, Always Justified] Molinist, that God does not predestinate any person to lose their salvation during their time spent on this planet. God predestines all who would receive His free gift of salvation through faith in Christ's atoning work to be glorified. All who receive that gift are justified, and all who were justified will also be glorified [Romans 8:30]. Therefore, it is utterly nonsensical and inconceivable to me [ being contrary to His very nature] that God would predestinate any to lose [forfeit] their salvation after attaining glorification in paradise [Heaven].

God utilizes His middle knowledge with the design and intent to maximalize the number of the elect. Intrinsic to the Molinist's claim that God possesses middle knowledge is the claim that God remains sovereign while man remains in possession of libertarian free-will [to one degree or another ... although that freedom is not unlimited].

So, someone may ask, "how can a person possess any type of real libertarian creaturely freedom in Heaven if they cannot forfeit their glorified status?" The OJAJ Molinist would appeal to the "can/won't model of perseverance". The elect, once in Heaven can forfeit their status, but simply won't. Since God has promised [and will bring to fruition] the preservation of all of His children in their present fallen condition to glory [while yet retaining their creaturely freedom], how much "easier" will it be for Him to preserve them once they arrive in Heaven [while yet retaining their creaturely freedom]?

Molinism is a system of thought that seeks to reconcile the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. The heart of Molinism is the principle that God is completely sovereign and man is also free in a libertarian sense. Molinism also seeks to avoid so-called “theological determinism” [a.k.a. "EDD" - Exhaustive Divine determinism"]: the view that God decrees who will be saved or damned without any meaningful impact of their own free choice.

As to just what this looks like pertaining to God's providence and predestination, William Lane Craig stated :

"Concerning God's selection of the particular world that He chose to actualize :

It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined ; but it is up to me whether I am predestined [to salvation] in the world in which I find myself.......

Acts 13:48,"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

God chooses which feasible world to actualize ; in every feasible world God gives sufficient grace to every person for salvation."

GoldenKingGaze · Dec 18, 2021

Rapture Bound said:
GoldenKingGaze replied [post #96], "Is this to say that God uses His middle knowledge and other knowledge and power to predestine any to lose their eternal life in paradise?"

Short answer ... no. Let me first say as a OJAJ [Once Justified, Always Justified] Molinist, that God does not predestinate any person to lose their salvation during their time spent on this planet. God predestines all who would receive His free gift of salvation through faith in Christ's atoning work to be glorified. All who receive that gift are justified, and all who were justified will also be glorified [Romans 8:30]. Therefore, it is utterly nonsensical and inconceivable to me [ being contrary to His very nature] that God would predestinate any to lose [forfeit] their salvation after attaining glorification in paradise [Heaven].

God utilizes His middle knowledge with the design and intent to maximalize the number of the elect. Intrinsic to the Molinist's claim that God possesses middle knowledge is the claim that God remains sovereign while man remains in possession of libertarian free-will [to one degree or another ... although that freedom is not unlimited].

So, someone may ask, "how can a person possess any type of real libertarian creaturely freedom in Heaven if they cannot forfeit their glorified status?" The OJAJ Molinist would appeal to the "can/won't model of perseverance". The elect, once in Heaven can forfeit their status, but simply won't. Since God has promised [and will bring to fruition] the preservation of all of His children in their present fallen condition to glory [while yet retaining their creaturely freedom], how much "easier" will it be for Him to preserve them once they arrive in Heaven [while yet retaining their creaturely freedom]?

Molinism is a system of thought that seeks to reconcile the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. The heart of Molinism is the principle that God is completely sovereign and man is also free in a libertarian sense. Molinism also seeks to avoid so-called “theological determinism” [a.k.a. "EDD" - Exhaustive Divine determinism"]: the view that God decrees who will be saved or damned without any meaningful impact of their own free choice.

As to just what this looks like pertaining to God's providence and predestination, William Lane Craig stated :

"Concerning God's selection of the particular world that He chose to actualize :

It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined ; but it is up to me whether I am predestined [to salvation] in the world in which I find myself.......

Acts 13:48,"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

God chooses which feasible world to actualize ; in every feasible world God gives sufficient grace to every person for salvation."

Right, and what do you discern from Hebrews 6?

Rapture Bound · Dec 18, 2021

GoldenKingGaze [post #99] asked, "Right, and what do you discern from Hebrews 6?

From my OJAJ, Molinist standpoint, Hebrews 6 was addressed to Jewish Christians [all those who claimed to place their faith in their true Messiah alone as the only sacrifice for sin]. Therefore, this group includes both genuine and professing followers of Christ ... directly aimed at the genuine, and indirectly applied to the nominal.

It appears that for various reasons, such as avoiding persecution, or temptation to join a Jewish [Judaizing] sect; they were in danger of making a tragic choice that carried a horrendous eternal consequence with it... if they should fall away, there would be no opportunity for repentance [Hebrews 6:6]..."For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" [Hebrews 10:26] - What is that willful sin? ... the denial that Jesus Christ is the only acceptable sacrifice for their sin(s) [Hebrews 9:26].

"The righteousness which is of God" can only be obtained by virtue of being in 'union with Christ' [being found 'in him']. This righteousness originates from God through the faith[fullness] of Christ, and is imputed to all those who do not trust in their righteousness (or moral acts) in order for their justification, but instead have believed in Christ's. 2 Corinthians 5:21,"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

My viewpoint differs from the Calvinist position in that those of the Calvinist/Reformed position would say that this chapter is exclusively written to those who were merely professing followers of Christ. It is also unlike the Arminian view which claims that not only was Hebrews 6 directed at true believers, but some of them will actually apostatize [forfeit their salvation].

The hypothetical aspect of the warnings [expressed by the Molinist in the "can/won't model of perseverance"] contained in this chapter is clearly seen in the "if" of Hebrews 6:6 ... "if they shall fall away." Looking through the lens of the this OJAJ Molinist, this is not to say that the consequence for failure to heed the warning isn't real, but rather, no true believer will actually fail to take heed.

True believers will rightly fear the warning, they will acknowledge, and reason within themselves that God would be just in stripping them of the priceless free gift of eternal life that they had received; they will reflect upon His love for them, and the horrendous and painful means that their Messiah endured in order to purchase that gift. They will shudder and cringe at the very thought of putting their precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to "open shame" [verse 6]... "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." [Hebrews 6:9].

Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

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Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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