Pre-trib rapture in the Bible

Ivan Hlavanda · Dec 6, 2021

Jesus will not return until Israel repents.

Matthew 23:39 'For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Hosea 5:15 'I will return again to my place, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me.'

The Lord clearly said He will not return back to Earth until Israel repents. But when will that be?

Romans 11:25 'I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.'

So we see Israel will remained hardened until all the gentiles God wants to save are saved. 'Gentiles has come in' but where? Heaven.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The hour of trial is the great tribulation of the world, where God will pour His wrath. But God promised to spare the believers from the hour of trials. That means the Church must have been raptured before the trials come.

Isaiah in chapter 26:20-21 writes the same. 'Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

Israel is still waiting for Messiah as they rejected Jesus. But Jesus said He will not come back until they believe. They will however accept the false messiah, the antichrist. The Church gets raptured so it escapes antichrist and God's wrath. Because the Church is the bride of Christ, she will be in Heaven on Marriage Supper of the Lamb while there is a 7 years tribulation period on Earth. The left behind 'Christians' will have to repent, reject antichrist, for which they are killed.

John 14 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

He went to Heaven to prepare a place so when He will come back, He will take His bride there and not remain here on Earth.
The features in this description do not describe Christ coming to earth with His saints to establish His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-15), but taking believers from earth to live in heaven. Since no judgment on the unsaved is described here, this is not the event of His return in glory and power to destroy the wicked (Matt. 13:36-43 and 47-50).

Rather, this describes His coming to gather His own who are alive and raise the bodies of those who have died to take them all to heaven. This rapture event is also described in (1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). After being raptured, the church will celebrate the marriage supper (Rev. 19:7-10), be rewarded (1 Cor. 3:10-15; 4:5; 2 Cor. 5:9-10), and later return to earth with Christ when He comes again to set up His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-20:6).

If Christians were still here on Earth when Jesus returns, then you can imagine a lot of people on Earth be happy, but Jesus says in Matthew 24:30 that everyone will be mourning
'30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.' Why is no one happy Jesus is coming? Because the believers are gone. Raptured. They are coming with Him.

Lord Jesus will come back with an army that is dressed in fine linen, white and pure. Zechariah 14:5 says, ‘Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.’ All the angels are not holy, and even if they were, they are not dressed in white and pure linen. Those who come with Lord Jesus are according to Rev. 19:14 ‘arrayed in fine linen, white and pure’. Do you know where they were dressed like this? Not here on Earth but as according to Rev. 19:7-8 in Heaven. ‘For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure.’ In Heaven, is the holy army of God dressed in white and pure linen, and when Lord Jesus Christ comes back on Mount of Olives, the holy army is following Him from Heaven.

Are there any verses that show the rapture and Jesus coming are two different events?

Revelation 1:7 'Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.'

But Hebrews 9:28 'so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

One verse says everyone will see Him, but the other says that He will only appear to those who await Him. Rev 1:7 Describes Christ coming to Earth after the 7 years of tribulation but Hebrews 9:28 describes the rapture of the Church before this event.

Zechariah 14:6-7 ‘On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.’ And Luke 17:34 ‘I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.’

When Jesus Christ comes back to Mount of Olives it will be neither day nor night, but when the Lord comes into clouds Luke 17:34 says ‘that night’. So in Luke Lord doesn’t talk about His return to Mount of Olives because that day will be neither day nor night. The Lord was talking about completely another day. And He began with the words ‘that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.

I could go on and on but there is than enough evidence in the Bible that the events will go like this: The last gentile is saved, the Church is raptured. Antichrist starts ruling, agrees to a false peace treaty with Israel who think he is the messiah. First 3 and half years of tribulation antichrist kills everyone who refuses the mark of the beast. Then he goes to the new built temple in Jerusalem. God pours His Spirit on Israel who finally see that this is the false messiah and they kick him out. Antichrist who is controlled by the devil is angry and he gathers a massive army against Jerusalem. Israel is crying in repentance of killing Jesus, Jesus comes back with His bride and destroys the antichrist. 1000 year Kingdom of God starts on Earth.

friend of · Dec 6, 2021

You made some good points. Thank you

Jamdoc · Dec 6, 2021

the caveat to me is to understand that the Great Tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing.
The Great Tribulation that Jesus talked about was religious persecution, not all the supernatural and environmental catastrophes of the Trumpets and Bowls.

Long story short, will we see the Great Tribulation and its persecution? Yes.
Will we be subjected to the wrath of God? no.

When's the wrath of God?

Revelation 6:17
Revelation 14:14-20
Revelation 15:1

anything prior to that, is not the wrath of God. that includes the Mark of the Beast (what needs to be realized is that Revelation 13 is not Chronologically after Revelation 6, it is more details about what goes on before Revelation 6:12-17)

Matthew 24:29-31 says the sun and moon darken immediately after the Great Tribulation
That happens at the 6th seal. So logically, the Great Tribulation is over after the 6th seal, but the 7th seal and Trumpets haven't come out yet.. well
they're not the Great Tribulation.

the 6th seal therefore delineates where the Great Tribulation ends.. and the wrath of God begins.
Revelation 14 shows the same thing, warning about the mark of the beast, so there's your Great Tribulation... then Jesus is on the clouds, harvests a group of people (that are not put through the wrath of God), then an Angel harvests another group of people and puts them through the wrath of God.

In both narratives, you have people who have endured Tribulation (the first 4 seals and especially 5th seal, and the mark of the beast in Revelation 13 and 14), followed by Jesus being seated on the clouds (6th seal, Revelation 14:14), followed by the wrath of God (Revelation 6:17 and Revelation 14:19-20)
and....
following both of those.. are saints in Heaven rejoicing, Revelation 7 and Revelation 15:2-4
In both cases, these saints in heaven OVERCAME Great Tribulation
Revelation 7:14, and Revelation 15:2 both say this explicitly.

The pattern fits both times in the same order.

It even fits a few old testament verses, such as Isaiah 26 as you already highlighted, the rapture is before the wrath of God.

However.. look at Daniel 12:1-2

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

the time of trouble, the Great Tribulation, precedes the Resurrection, which precedes the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4!

This pattern holds up in 2 Thessalonians 2 as well

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What's said here? That the gathering together to Christ won't happen until 2 things happen first, the apostasy, and then the revealing of the Antichrist (which happens at the midpoint of the 70th week).
We're seeing the apostasy now probably with about 6% of professing Christians having a biblical world view.

It also fits with 1 Thessalonians 5.. where Jesus comes.. then sudden destruction. The sudden destruction happens in that on the same day as the 6th seal happens, there's only about a half hour delay before the first trumpet is blown, and burns up all the green grass and 1/3 of the trees on the planet.

So.. Birth Pangs -> midpoint when Antichrist is revealed -> Great Tribulation (5th seal) -> 6th seal -> Rapture -> Wrath of God.

Every other model has a biblical conflict, including pretribulationism.

But I think pretribulationists would understand better if they knew that the Great Tribulation was not God's wrath but things done by men, persecution, war, manufactured economic collapse, etc.
Because we're to expect tribulation in this world.
But because people don't know the difference and think Tribulation is asteroid impacts intense heat, demonic armies and supervolcanoes and the water turning to blood... they're right to understand that the Rapture happens before any of that.
They're just wrong to call it "the 7 year tribulation" and call those things the Tribulation when that ended at the 6th seal.

In fact, any time anyone uses the terms "7 year tribulation" that's a red flag for me that they don't really know what they're talking about.

keras · Dec 6, 2021

Ivan Hlavanda said:
I could go on and on but there is than enough evidence in the Bible that the events will go like this: The last gentile is saved, the Church is raptured.

The Biblical evidence is that a 'rapture to heaven' is impossible and will never happen. We are told to endure until the end.

Jamdoc said:
So.. Birth Pangs -> midpoint when Antichrist is revealed -> Great Tribulation (5th seal) -> 6th seal -> Rapture -> Wrath of God.

Every other model has a biblical conflict, including pretribulationism.

Your model does conflict with the Bible and the Revelation narrative:
1/The Sixth seal is the next prophesied event, the last and greatest 'birth pang'. The Day of sudden destruction; of the enemies attacking Israel.
2/ We will know who the AC is when he makes a 7 year peace treaty with the Christian peoples in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 28:14-15
3/ There is no general 'rapture to heaven'. After the Millennium, God and heaven come to us.
4/ The wrath of God is the Sixth Seal against the world, and a few years later; the 3.5 years of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls against the people who have taken Satan's mark.

Jamdoc · Dec 6, 2021

keras said:
The Biblical evidence is that a 'rapture to heaven' is impossible and will never happen. We are told to endure until the end.

Your model does conflict with the Bible and the Revelation narrative:
1/The Sixth seal is the next prophesied event, the last and greatest 'birth pang'. The Day of sudden destruction; of the enemies attacking Israel.
2/ We will know who the AC is when he makes a 7 year peace treaty with the Christian peoples in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 28:14-15
3/ There is no general 'rapture to heaven'. After the Millennium, God and heaven come to us.
4/ The wrath of God is the Sixth Seal against the world, and a few years later; the 3.5 years of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls against the people who have taken Satan's mark.

You are pretty much the only person with those interpretations and your interpretation has conflicts.

keras · Dec 7, 2021

Jamdoc said:
You are pretty much the only person with those interpretations and your interpretation has conflicts.

Yes; God's Prophets and myself.
There are no conflicts in #5. YOU prove that the Sixth Seal is wrongly placed in Revelation.
At the SS, the moon shines blood red. At the Return, the moon is darkened. Two different events, years apart.

Jamdoc · Dec 7, 2021

keras said:
Yes; God's Prophets and myself.
There are no conflicts in #5. YOU prove that the Sixth Seal is wrongly placed in Revelation.
At the SS, the moon shines blood red. At the Return, the moon is darkened. Two different events, years apart.

blood red is darkened. any time the moon is Eclipsed it turns red and is darker than normal. The same happens if it's shining through dense smoke or ash. It looks red and darker.

Joel 2 refers to it pretty much interchangably.

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

First, what causes the dark/blood red moon? Thick clouds, I think specifically, ash or debris. Whether it's an asteroid impact (less likely as those happen AFTER the 6th seal), or say.. Yellowstone blowing its cauldera (more likely, and well, I'm kind of doomed as I'm in the "completely buried in ash" zone if Yellowstone were to erupt), or even nuclear fallout (as what could explain the 4th seal "beasts" in Revelation either refer to Angels in John's heavenly visions... or Empires on the Earth and their leaders. The "beasts of the Earth" I believe is referring to world superpowers. There is a reason why the US is not in biblical prophecy. Yellowstone erupting or a Nuclear war would pretty much take us out), I'm not sure.. but the moon is darkened by clouds of what I believe is Ash.

Second:

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

2 things here, #1, refers to the moon as being darkened, and the language used at the end of verse 11?
I've seen that expression another place

Oh yeah
Revelation 6:17

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

as you're aware, Revelation 6:12 the moon becomes as blood.

now continuing in Joel 2

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

In verse 10-11, it's the great and terrible day of the Lord, and the moon is described as dark, in verse 31, it's the great and terrible day of the Lord, and the moon is described as blood.

It's the same thing. A blood moon is a dark moon, and it'll be caused by thick clouds.

Ivan Hlavanda · Dec 7, 2021

Big_John said:
except Israel needing to repent before the rapture. I believe what you reference is in relation to Jesus' return to this earth. It is at the end of the Tribulation that the Jews will begin to repent.

The repentance will not happen before the rapture but after it. First, the rapture of the Church happens. Then, the Man Of Lawlessness (Antichrist) is revealed. 2 Thess 2 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders.

Once the antichrist is revealed, the 7 years (also known as Daniel's 70th week) of great tribulation starts, as described in revelation 4 to revelation 19. The antichrist at the beginning agrees to a peace treaty with Israel, Israel think he is the promised messiah. This is also the start of the final kingdom, the 4th beast as described by the prophet Daniel. The beast that will devour the whole Earth. That is why God says in revelation 12 this Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” The antichrist is powered by satan himself who wants to destroy the Earth as he knows he has a short time. That is why God says rejoice those who are in Heaven (that is the raptured Church and Old Testament Saints).

About half way through the 7 year tribulation period, once all those who refuse the mark of the beast are killed, the antichrist according to 2 Thess 2:4 sits on the throne in the temple in Jerusalem
'who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.'

When this happens the Lord removes Israel blindness and hardening of their hearths, they see the antichrist is not the Messiah and they kick him out of Jerusalem. The antichrist is raging, he gathers all the armies of the world to attack Jerusalem, and only then, according to scripture, Israel repents.

Zechariah 12:9-11. ‘And on that day, I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo’. The day that Israel repents who they pierced, will be the day when God pours the Spirit on all inhabitants of the house of David and Jerusalem. And they will repent who they pierced; they will cry like they just lost their only child.

And then Jesus and His bride come.

Acts29 · Dec 7, 2021

Your OP is really long but I wanted to comment on just a couple things.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Jesus will not return until Israel repents.

Matthew 23:39 'For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Psalms 118:22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This was the Lord’s doing; It is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day the Lord has made; We will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I pray, O Lord; O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.

Jesus' statement in Matthew isn't about repentance. It is a direct quote from Psalms 118. This part of Psalms is sung in Israel every Passover Seder night. Jesus just told us one of His appointed times. The Bridegroom comes at midnight when all the virgins are asleep. They are stuffed from the Thanksgiving like feast and thus sleepy afterward.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Hosea 5:15 'I will return again to my place, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me.'

The Lord clearly said He will not return back to Earth until Israel repents. But when will that be?

Notice the first part of the verse. "I will return AGAIN to My place." That means Jesus has come to earth and then will return to heaven for at least the second time, prior to their distress, Jacob's trouble. That means Jesus comes at least three times. Two of which occur before great tribulation comes upon them, and at least one more time after the distress to deliver the remnant. Ever noticed that?

Bob_1000 · Dec 7, 2021

Big_John said:
Good reply.... but re-ponder the actual start of the 7 years. I think the time will be short, but there will be a period of time where the Anti-Christ rises to popularity and power before the Tribulation starts.

Biblically, it actually starts when the Anti-Christ signs a peace treaty with Israel. This means that the Anti-Christ, at that moment, is a man of great power and influence. The day that document is signed, the "7 weeks" begin.... or 2,555 days... or 61,320 hours. And you better believe... humans on planet Earth will be counting the hours as the wrath is poured out. They will pray to die.

“And he shall CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” (Daniel 9:27 KJV)

Most people can only envision the Anti-Christ as evil, incarnate and a really, really bad person from the first day he is revealed. Actually, he starts out as a leader with great charisma and is beloved by all.

..........

To confirm a covenant means to establish the validity of a covenant that existed before the confirmation. My question is what covenant did the Antichrist make with Israel in the past that he will confirm or establish the validity of in the future?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 8, 2021

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Jesus will not return until Israel repents.

Matthew 23:39 'For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Hosea 5:15 'I will return again to my place, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me.'

The Lord clearly said He will not return back to Earth until Israel repents. But when will that be?

Romans 11:25 'I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.'

You're misapplying Hosea 5:15 to the wrong time period and Matthew 23:39 and Romans 11:25 say nothing about repentance. You're adding things to scripture that aren't there.

Scripture says that all people will bow down to the Lord (Romans 14:10-12). When He returns it will be too late for anyone to repent. Unbelievers will bow to Him at that point, but not because they are repenting. It will be because there will be no denying Him at that point. They will not be able to deny Him when they see Him in all His glory and they will bow down to Him just like everyone will (Romans 14:10-12). But, it will be too late for them to be saved at that point.

So we see Israel will remained hardened until all the gentiles God wants to save are saved. 'Gentiles has come in' but where? Heaven.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The hour of trial is the great tribulation of the world, where God will pour His wrath. But God promised to spare the believers from the hour of trials. That means the Church must have been raptured before the trials come.

For one thing that was a messsage given specifically to the first century church in Philadelphia. For another thing, you don't have to be taken off of the earth in order to be protected from trials and tribulations.

Your interpretation of Revelation 3:10 contradicts this verse:

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

Clearly, we can be protected from trials and tribulations even while still on the earth. Scripture never teaches that we will be taken off of the earth to avoid trials and tribulations. Jesus prayed that the Father would not do that, so to believe that He will take us off of the earth to avoid tribulation completely contradicts what Jesus prayed for.

When God's final wrath comes down on the day Christ returns, then we will be taken off of the earth while Christ destroys His enemies. There's no reason to be taken off of the earth at any time before that. Jesus very specifically said that the elect will be gathered "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31).

Isaiah in chapter 26:20-21 writes the same. 'Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

Israel is still waiting for Messiah as they rejected Jesus. But Jesus said He will not come back until they believe. They will however accept the false messiah, the antichrist. The Church gets raptured so it escapes antichrist and God's wrath. Because the Church is the bride of Christ, she will be in Heaven on Marriage Supper of the Lamb while there is a 7 years tribulation period on Earth. The left behind 'Christians' will have to repent, reject antichrist, for which they are killed.

John 14 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

He went to Heaven to prepare a place so when He will come back, He will take His bride there and not remain here on Earth.
The features in this description do not describe Christ coming to earth with His saints to establish His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-15), but taking believers from earth to live in heaven. Since no judgment on the unsaved is described here, this is not the event of His return in glory and power to destroy the wicked (Matt. 13:36-43 and 47-50).

Rather, this describes His coming to gather His own who are alive and raise the bodies of those who have died to take them all to heaven. This rapture event is also described in (1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). After being raptured, the church will celebrate the marriage supper (Rev. 19:7-10), be rewarded (1 Cor. 3:10-15; 4:5; 2 Cor. 5:9-10), and later return to earth with Christ when He comes again to set up His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-20:6).

If Christians were still here on Earth when Jesus returns, then you can imagine a lot of people on Earth be happy, but Jesus says in Matthew 24:30 that everyone will be mourning
'30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.' Why is no one happy Jesus is coming? Because the believers are gone. Raptured. They are coming with Him.

Lord Jesus will come back with an army that is dressed in fine linen, white and pure. Zechariah 14:5 says, ‘Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.’ All the angels are not holy, and even if they were, they are not dressed in white and pure linen. Those who come with Lord Jesus are according to Rev. 19:14 ‘arrayed in fine linen, white and pure’. Do you know where they were dressed like this? Not here on Earth but as according to Rev. 19:7-8 in Heaven. ‘For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure.’ In Heaven, is the holy army of God dressed in white and pure linen, and when Lord Jesus Christ comes back on Mount of Olives, the holy army is following Him from Heaven.

Are there any verses that show the rapture and Jesus coming are two different events?

Revelation 1:7 'Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.'

But Hebrews 9:28 'so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Where does scripture say that He will also appear a third time? Just because it doesn't mention unbelievers seeing Him in that verse doesn't mean it's talking about a different event. Not all verses that speak of the second coming have all the same details about it.

RandyPNW · Dec 8, 2021

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Jesus will not return until Israel repents.

Matthew 23:39 'For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Hosea 5:15 'I will return again to my place, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me.'

You got a point. I think that there is presently a Messianic Jewish movement, who are indeed calling out for the return of Christ to Israel. This means the Kingdom is coming soon.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The Lord clearly said He will not return back to Earth until Israel repents. But when will that be?

Romans 11:25 'I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.'

So we see Israel will remained hardened until all the gentiles God wants to save are saved. 'Gentiles has come in' but where? Heaven.

The Gentile nations have been converting to Christianity since the Roman Empire converted to Christianity in the time of Constantine and Theodosius. Many European and other nations have become Christian nations since then. But in modern times, many Christian nations have turned to apostasy, and now we see Christianity declining among nations in the world. This is what, I think, Paul meant by the end of Gentile Christianity in this age. Again, it's a sign of the soon coming of Christ.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The hour of trial is the great tribulation of the world, where God will pour His wrath. But God promised to spare the believers from the hour of trials. That means the Church must have been raptured before the trials come.

Now this is just plain sad. Pretrib always uses this verse, which has not a thing to do with the endtimes. It had to do with the time of John, who was told he was being shown things that "are." The 7 churches were what "was."

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Isaiah in chapter 26:20-21 writes the same. 'Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

This is the state of the Church in the endtimes--basically an unpopular, almost underground Church. It is a sign of the end of the age.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Israel is still waiting for Messiah as they rejected Jesus. But Jesus said He will not come back until they believe. They will however accept the false messiah, the antichrist. The Church gets raptured so it escapes antichrist and God's wrath. Because the Church is the bride of Christ, she will be in Heaven on Marriage Supper of the Lamb while there is a 7 years tribulation period on Earth. The left behind 'Christians' will have to repent, reject antichrist, for which they are killed.

There is not a thing in the Bible about a "Left Behind Church," nor a "7 year Tribulation," nor a Christian escape from the Antichrist through a Rapture to Heaven. Nothing whatsoever. It was made up by John Darby in the early 1800s.

If you want to argue for a Pretrib Rapture you will 1st have to find it in the Scriptures. But you won't be able to do that, because it isn't there.

Ivan Hlavanda · Dec 9, 2021

RandyPNW said:
Now this is just plain sad. Pretrib always uses this verse, which has not a thing to do with the endtimes. It had to do with the time of John, who was told he was being shown things that "are." The 7 churches were what "was."

The 7 churches of revelation, yes, these churches existed, but the also spiritually represent the church throughout it's whole existence. So when Jesus comes for His church, it will be the spiritual Christians of the church of Philadelphia He takes with Him.

Ivan Hlavanda · Dec 9, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

Clearly, we can be protected from trials and tribulations even while still on the earth. Scripture never teaches that we will be taken off of the earth to avoid trials and tribulations. Jesus prayed that the Father would not do that, so to believe that He will take us off of the earth to avoid tribulation completely contradicts what Jesus prayed for.

Yes, Christians will have tribulations, Jesus even said in John 14 we will have tribulations. In short Jesus not once said Christians will have it easy, but they will go through hardship because Jesus is our Lord. I don't want to escape that, I am talking about the Great Tribulation, the 7 Years of Anti-Christ and the final beast, where God will hit the Earth with 21 plagues as described in Revelation 6 - Revelation 18.

The book of revelation is a chronological book. Chapters 1-3 describe the Church here on Earth, in chapters 4-5 the Church is in Heaven (the rapture must have happened between chapters 3&4). Chapters 6 to 18 describe the 7 years of Great Tribulation, and in Chapter 19 Christ returns, then we have the millennium, final rebellion of Satan, final judgement, New Heaven and New Earth.

How else would you describe the book of Revelation.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 9, 2021

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Yes, Christians will have tribulations, Jesus even said in John 14 we will have tribulations. In short Jesus not once said Christians will have it easy, but they will go through hardship because Jesus is our Lord. I don't want to escape that, I am talking about the Great Tribulation, the 7 Years of Anti-Christ and the final beast, where God will hit the Earth with 21 plagues as described in Revelation 6 - Revelation 18.

The book of revelation is a chronological book.

No, it is not. It has several parallel sections (recapitulations) in it. If you read Revelation 6:12-17 you should see that the wrath of the Lamb is already at hand as of the sixth seal. How can the seventh seal, all the trumpets and all the vials follow that when Christ's return and His wrath is already at hand as of the sixth seal?

Also, at the seventh trumpet it is said to be "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Revelation 11:18). Their judgment is portrayed in Revelation 20:11-15 which occurs after the thousand years. So, how can all the vials and the thousand years (and Satan's little season) follow the seventh trumpet when that is the case?

Also, the final wrath of God is shown as being poured out in Revelation 14:19-20. It just makes no sense to think that the entire book is chronological. You don't think that what is described in Revelation 12 follows what is described in Revelation 11 chronologically, do you? The birth of Christ and His ascension is described in Revelation 12. That certainly didn't follow the seventh trumpet, which has not yet sounded.

Chapters 1-3 describe the Church here on Earth, in chapters 4-5 the Church is in Heaven (the rapture must have happened between chapters 3&4). Chapters 6 to 18 describe the 7 years of Great Tribulation, and in Chapter 19 Christ returns, then we have the millennium, final rebellion of Satan, final judgement, New Heaven and New Earth.

How else would you describe the book of Revelation.

Not at all the way you do. I'm an amillennialist. Do you know what amillennialists believe? If not, let me know, and I'll try to explain it as briefly as I can.

The church is not just in heaven from chapter 4 on. It shows the dragon, Satan, making war with the church on earth in Revelation 12:17 and the beast making war with the church on earth in Revelation 13 and so on. How can you think that the church is all in heaven at that point when it shows the church suffering persecution in those chapters?

Jamdoc · Dec 9, 2021

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The 7 churches of revelation, yes, these churches existed, but the also spiritually represent the church throughout it's whole existence. So when Jesus comes for His church, it will be the spiritual Christians of the church of Philadelphia He takes with Him.

Why does every pretribber think they're the Church of Philadelphia rather than a Church that Jesus rebukes, or even the Church of Smyrna. Jesus doesn't rebuke Smyrna either, and they get martyred.

Jamdoc · Dec 9, 2021

RandyPNW said:
You got a point. I think that there is presently a Messianic Jewish movement, who are indeed calling out for the return of Christ to Israel. This means the Kingdom is coming soon.

Partially, though Zechariah 12 and Revelation 7/14 show a response to seeing Jesus in the clouds among the Jews. The 144k specifically.

There is not a thing in the Bible about a "Left Behind Church," nor a "7 year Tribulation," nor a Christian escape from the Antichrist through a Rapture to Heaven. Nothing whatsoever. It was made up by John Darby in the early 1800s.

If you want to argue for a Pretrib Rapture you will 1st have to find it in the Scriptures. But you won't be able to do that, because it isn't there.

Now, there is precedent for rapture into heaven in scripture. Enoch, Elijah, Jesus on His ascension, the 2 witnesses after being killed in Revelation 11, and it can be inferred in Revelation 7 and 15, both of which show the saints in heaven rejoicing having come out of Great Tribulation/overcome the image/mark of the beast, after a passage that involves Jesus in the clouds in each case.

It's just not pre-trib.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Yes, Christians will have tribulations, Jesus even said in John 14 we will have tribulations. In short Jesus not once said Christians will have it easy, but they will go through hardship because Jesus is our Lord. I don't want to escape that, I am talking about the Great Tribulation, the 7 Years of Anti-Christ and the final beast, where God will hit the Earth with 21 plagues as described in Revelation 6 - Revelation 18.

I can tell I'm going to have to beat this into your head bluntly.
There is no "7 year tribulation", especially not a 7 year Great Tribulation.
anyone who uses that term, is parroting someone else who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Matthew 24:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It's not 7 years because they only start after the Abomination of Desolation, the midpoint of the 70th week, AND it's not even a full 3.5 years, because for the Elect's sake, those days will be shortened.

So that's the beginning of the 70th week and a hint that they end earlier than the end of the 70th week.

When does the Great Tribulation end? Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 have the answer.

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

so.. the Great Tribulation is over at the time the sun and moon darken, and as a bonus, this actually gives the timing of the rapture itself. So when is this in the events in Revelation?

Revelation 6:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Therefore, anything after the 6th seal, is not Great Tribulation, it's over by that time, meaning the Great Tribulation is the first 5 seals at most. Specifically, I believe it to be the 5th seal, because for everyone outside of Christ, they will need to be planting and building and doing weddings when the 6th seal happens, according to Luke 17.
How I believe this happens is the first 4 seals set up the Antichrist, and the Antichrist restores order and the economy after the 4 horsemen, so they come to a state of normalcy for everyone on earth except Christians and Jews, who will be persecuted during the 5th seal.

The book of revelation is a chronological book. Chapters 1-3 describe the Church here on Earth, in chapters 4-5 the Church is in Heaven (the rapture must have happened between chapters 3&4). Chapters 6 to 18 describe the 7 years of Great Tribulation, and in Chapter 19 Christ returns, then we have the millennium, final rebellion of Satan, final judgement, New Heaven and New Earth.

How else would you describe the book of Revelation.

Not Chronological, I'll show you:

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

"are become" means that just now they have become Jesus' kingdom, currently Satan rules this world. So at the 7th trumpet Jesus takes the Kingdom from Satan to Himself.
Now

Revelation 13

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

to believe this Chronologically follows the 7th trumpet, would require believing that Jesus takes control of the world FROM Satan, then gives it right back.
On top of this a big clue is that Revelation chapter 12 starts back in time with the birth of Jesus. That's a break in Chronology and it's deliberate and establishes a new narrative, a second look at the same events from a new perspective and with different details.

Still not convinced?
There's duplications.

Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 both have the 144,000.
Revelation 7 and Revealtion 15 both have saints in heaven praising God having overcome Great Tribulation/having overcome the image/mark of the beast.
Jesus is visible in the clouds in Revelation 6 after the 6th seal, and Revelation 14:14-20
don't believe Revelation 6 shows Jesus as visibly in the clouds?

Revelation 6

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Mind you these are people who do not believe.

Marilyn C · Dec 9, 2021

We need to understand God`s purposes for these 3 groups.

Marilyn C · Dec 9, 2021

Jamdoc · Dec 9, 2021

Big_John said:
Tribulation with a lower case "t" is what we face every day as a Christian.

The Great Tribulation is the 7 years and is absolutely a time when God pours out His wrath on the earth.

Nope... the church will not be here for the Great Tribulation. We will have already been raptured to Heaven for the Bema Seat, Jesus handing out rewards and the Marriage Super of the Lamb.

.........

Wrong.
Jesus defines the Great Tribulation as starting after the midpoint when the Abomination of Desolation takes place, and ending just before the sun and moon go dark (6th seal).

Any time you use the words "7 years" to define Great Tribulation you are saying "I choose my own definition rather than what Jesus said".

Read your bible, stop parroting misled pastors.

Pre-trib rapture in the Bible

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