Does "Israel" mean "the church"?

Biblewriter said:

But while they INTERPRET the name “Israel” to mean “the church,” this INTERPRETATION falls down when we come to the many other names used by God in making the many promises found in the Old Testament. For God did not JUST promise end time blessings to the NATION of Israel. (And, yes, He actually did specifically use the word “NATION.”) He also made similar promises to each of the ancient sub-nations of Ephraim and Judah, and to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name. And no scripture even HINTS at an idea that ANY of these fourteen other names means “the church.”

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By “end times blessings” are you referring to salvation? The reason I ask is because to my knowledge God never promised salvation to the Israelites in the Old Testament He promised them prosperity in this life.

Daniel9v9 said:

There's some confusion here. The Church has not replaced the nation of Israel. "The Church" means "God's chosen people". And this at one point was Israel, which we, gentiles, have now been grafted into. Christ is the fulfilment of the Law and the Prophets, which means the Old Testament, so whoever is in Christ — whoever believes and is baptised — forms the true Israel, of which the OT nation of Israel foreshadows. This is why Scriptures say that there is no longer Jew and gentile, but one body in Christ.

To be clear, it is not as if the nation of Israel failed, and now the gentiles replaces this nation. It's rather God's promise to mankind first spoken in Genesis 3:15, and reaffirmed throughout history and then finally culminated in the person and works of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Old Testament needs to be understood Christologically, which is to say that everything in the OT in one way or another has Christ as its centre.

cf. Romans 11:17-18, Matthew 3:9, John 8:39, Galatians 3:7-9, Galatians 3:26-29, Matthew 5:17, John 5:46

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I’m not under the impression that we Gentiles are grafted into Israel but instead that we are grafted into God’s covenant. That’s how I interpret it according to Romans 11 since Paul makes the statement in Romans 11:25 pertaining to the partial hardening of Israel. This to me suggests that we are not grafted into that hardening of the heart so I think in this case Paul is referring to being grafted into God’s new covenant.

Biblewriter said:

Even a true and accurate analysis of modern legal rules and practice has ZERO relationship to Scripture.

In particular, even though the Old Covenant is indeed replaced by he New Covenant, that does not even IMPLY that the promises made DURING THE TIME of the Old Covenant were even a PART of the Old Covenant, and does not even IMPLY that EVEN ONE of these EXPLICITLY STATED and UNCONDITIONAL promises either has been, or even CAN BE revoked. The concept that these promises have been revoked is a DIRECT contradiction of Romans 11:28-29.

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Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

What is the definition of all?

Provide just one New Testament Scripture which declares that Israel, not Christ, is the fulfillment and heir of all of the old testament promises.

Just one.

Biblewriter said:

That is a meaningless argument. For the promises were mace to Israel THROUGH their promised Messiah, who is none other than Christ.

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Yes, to the dispensationalist, Hebrews 1:1-2 is a meaningless argument.

Of course, it contains neither the word Israel, nor the word through.

There should be just one New Testament Scripture which declares that Israel, not Christ, is the fulfillment and heir of all of the old testament promises.

Just one.

What and where is it?

Biblewriter said:

For Dispensationalism does not teach that Israel "is the fulfillment and heir of all the Old Testament promises."

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Good.

So that means that Christ is the fulfillment and heir of all the Old Testament promises.

Glad you agree.

Biblewriter said:

Actually, it MEANS exactly what it SAYS.

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Can you please share with us how exactly Genesis 3:15 MEANS exactly what it SAYS?

And what does it MEAN for a verse to MEAN exactly what it SAYS?

Biblewriter said:

Many people insist that in Bible prophecy, the many promises made to “Israel,” actually meant “the church.” This doctrine is defended by a wide spectrum of ideas.

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ImCo:
The people of the kingdom sown into this world by the son of Man are called as a group by many names but one name covers them all, they are HIS Elect.

HIS elect refers only to HIS elect, those under His promise of salvation if they should ever choose to become sinful in His sight: 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Israel refers to His sinful elect commingled with pagans.
The Church refers to the sinful elect commingled with wolves in sheep's clothing.
The good seed are the sinful elect commingled with the reprobate weeds.
His sheep gone astray into sin are the sinful elect commingled with the goats.

There has been one command for His sinful elect from the beginning: 2 Corinthians 6:17 Therefore, “Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”
so that the reprobate can be judged:
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [A reference to verses...38-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ [that is, bring the judgement upon them?]

29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because]...‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the good seed with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the good seed into my barn.’ ” The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the good seed and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgement is the maturity of a fully sanctified holiness, a full coming out from among the worldly. That is why Peter suggests that our godly and holy living speeds up and hastens the coming terrible day of judgement: 2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.

The covenant of creation is the basis for all of the old testament covenants.

The current covenant of Jesus Christ is based on the new heaven and the new earth.

The entity that represented God in the old earth was Israel.

The entity that represents God regarding the new creation is the Church.

This is the correlation.

The promises of the old covenant were give and take type promises, and blessings would be replaced with curses if the people did not hold up their end of the bargain. The middle east is a barren desert nowadays because of that, no one worships Him properly over there so the sky is as iron, and the earth is as bronze. Looking at the old testament beyond pointing to Jesus Christ misses the point anyway.

The promises of Jesus Christ, are based on Jesus Christ and His righteousness, so are yes and Amen.

Biblewriter said:

All the Old Testament promises will be fulfilled by and through Christ.

But many of these promises were not made to Christ, but to the ancient nation of Israel.

It is not Christ, but the ancient nation of Israel, that will "inhabit" the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken," as is EXPLICITLY promised in Ezekiel 36:1-10. And it is not Christ, but the ancient nation of Israel, that will have the boundries so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47:13-20. And it is not Christ, but the twelve tribes of Israel, that will divide that PLOT OF REAL ESTATE in the way defined in Ezekiel 48.

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"But many of these promises were not made to Christ, but to the ancient nation of Israel."

That is a direct blasphemous attempted repudiation of unambiguous Scripture.

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The word "but" does not appear in any Scriptures declaring Christ as the sole Heir and complete Fulfillment.

Cease and desist "kicking against the pricks". (Acts 9:5)

Christ is the Heir of all things. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

That leaves Israel as the heir of nothing.

There should be just one New Testament Scripture which declares that Israel, not Christ, is the fulfillment and heir of all of the old testament promises.

Just one.

What and where is it?

Biblewriter said:

All the Old Testament promises will be fulfilled by and through Christ.

But many of these promises were not made to Christ, but to the ancient nation of Israel.

It is not Christ, but the ancient nation of Israel, that will "inhabit" the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken," as is EXPLICITLY promised in Ezekiel 36:1-10. And it is not Christ, but the ancient nation of Israel, that will have the boundries so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47:13-20. And it is not Christ, but the twelve tribes of Israel, that will divide that PLOT OF REAL ESTATE in the way defined in Ezekiel 48.

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Since you're referencing Ezekiel 47 and 48 as referring to the future and applying them to the ancient nation of Israel, you apparently believe that the ancient nation of Israel will perform animal sacrifices and offerings for the atonement of their sins in the future?

Ezekiel 45:15 Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. 17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

Biblewriter said:

No what I said was EXPLICITLY STATED scripture. YOU are INTERPRETING one scripture to be a DENIAL of other scriptures. Whenever THAT happens the INTERPRETATION is NECESSARILY incorrect.

Christ is indeed the heir of all things. But He has promised US a share of His inheritance.

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Yes, He has promised us, the church, a share of His inheritance. Not the nation of Israel.

And He LIKEWISE promised the ancient nation of ISRAEL a DIFFERENT share of His inheritance. YOU are the one who is denying EXPLICITLY STATED SCRIPTURE.

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No, he is denying your false interpretation of scripture and so am I.

When do you plan on explaining to us how Genesis 3:15 MEANS what it SAYS?

Okay, many people get confused here. There is Israel, and there is the church. The church is the bride of Christ. Israel represents all unbelieving nations(beginning with the Jews). When Christ came, he actually came to save ALL THE WORLD. Meaning, everyone that is not the bride of Christ(the church) because the World did not believe in him, yet it is technically by grace and not by works. So Messiah had to come down to deliver the word otherwise they would be without sin because they would not have known anything. But now the unbelieving world both know, and hates the messiah. When he came he was looking for all the Lost sheep. But the sheep could not hear him neither did they care. All who came before him were robbers and thieves, but the sheep did not hear him, because they could not hear the word of God. There is no other begotten son. Jesus is the lamb! There is none other. There is none beside him. Jesus came as a bright light shining upon all. When we are born we are a child of this world. That means we are in Christ's body until we reach an age of accountability. He placed everyone into the same bucket as being unbelievers so that the call may stand. He says to let all the children come to him for the kingdom belongs to them. When Christ is with them they have blind faith. They are without sin. They can not stay babies in Christ because Christ is the ONLY begotten SON. People often stumble over this mainly because Jesus wanted to hide it because he knew them, and that they hated him for no reason. So when the world says it is just by grace and I am not going to repent nor go to church to ask forgiveness nor get baptized for remission of sins or take communion to nor serve. That is not the spirit of Christ, but Anti-Christ. And he will accuse you to the father on the last day. Because the spirit inside you will claim to be the son of God. When we are baptized the holy spirit comes upon us to convict us to let us know that we are not him. And he was with you from the beginning. He made everything evident to everyone so there will be no excuse for anyone. He shines on everyone so that they are blind from the beginning so that the calling will be by faith, and not works nor smarts. We have to come even if the word does not make sense to us. We have to take God by faith. That pleases him.

The true Christian Ecclesia is Israel:
Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: every faithful Christian person; are designated by God to be Israelites. Galatians 6:14-16
The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, who are the only one Church, only one elect, be they Jew or Gentile by birth.

1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11
Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9

2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1
Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1

3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12
Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25

4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chronicles 29:14-18
Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 10:20-21, I Timothy 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9

5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9
Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10

6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2
Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32

7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7
Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24

8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18
Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3, Col. 2:11

9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8
Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23

10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deuteronomy 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10
The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25


The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [wrongly called; Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation.

The truth is proven by how it is all the faithful Christian believers of every tribe, race, nation and language: Revelation 5:9-10 & 7:9, who gather in the holy Land soon after the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. Habakkuk 3:12
They will be assigned to an appropriate Israelite tribe, according to each family’s characteristics. Proved by Isaiah 66:21 Then the 144,000 will be selected, 12,000 from each tribe, to go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:19

This new nation in the Middle East, will be called Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 They will live in peace and prosperity and when a large army comes down from the North, God will destroy it. Ezekiel 38-39, Joel 2:20

Sometime later, the President of the One World Government will come to Beulah and convince ‘many’ of them to sign a seven year treaty of peace. Daniel 11:27, Isaiah 28:14-15 This marks the commencement of the final seven years of this age and is the 70th ‘week of Daniel 9:24, then at the mid-point, the O.W.G. dictator will invade and conquer Beulah. Zech. 14:1-2, Daniel 11:30-32, which triggers the Great Tribulation of the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments. Rev. 12:7-13
But those Israelites who ‘faithful to their God’, will be taken to a place of safety, as described in Revelation 12:14.
Then at the Return of Jesus, those faithful ones, the righteous ‘woman’ of Christian Israel will experience a ‘rapture’ as they are gathered by the Lord’s angels. Matthew 24:31
They will join the resurrected GT martyrs and will enjoy the great blessings of the Millennium. Isaiah 65:17-25