Historical Basis of Dispensationalism

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9Rock9

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One of the main criticisms of dispensationalism is how almost no one believed in it until John Darby came around in thr 19th Century. Before then, most Christians were either amillennial or postmillennial.

Granted, some Christians in the early church believed in premillennialism, included some of the Fathers, but their version of it was quite different from modern dispensationalism.

Is there any evidence of Christians believing in a future restoration of Israel prior to the Protestant Reformation?
 

Trusting in Him

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I think that much of dispensational thinking came from the eightenth and ninetenth centuries and from the likes of J N Darby, Scoffield and E W Bullnger. As to how meaningful, or helpful any of this teaching actually was, I have no idea! I, myself do have and sometimes make use of "the companion bible" and the book "figures of speech in the bible" by E W Bullinger and do find these quite useful.

As for dispensationalism, I can't say that it's something which I take much notice of. I certainly was not aware that it went back as far as the reformation. I am not aware that it's much taught, or that it is a mainstream subject of particular importance in the current times which we live in. What's the importance of dispensation to us in these days?
 
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Dan Perez

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I think that much of dispensational thinking came from the eightenth and ninetenth centuries and from the likes of J N Darby, Scoffield and E W Bullnger. As to how meaningful, or helpful any of this teaching actually was, I have no idea! I, myself do have and sometimes make use of "the companion bible" and the book "figures of speech in the bible" by E W Bullinger and do find these quite useful.

As for dispensationalism, I can't say that it's something which I take much notice of. I certainly was not aware that it went back as far as the reformation. I am not aware that it's much taught, or that it is a mainstream subject of particular importance in the current times which we live in. What's the importance of dispensation to us in these days?


Hi and it goes back to when Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Tim 1:4 where the word EDIFYING is not in the Greek text .

It isthe Greek word DISPENSATION / OIKONOMIA instead , an anyone can check the Greek text and see .

dan p
 
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Clare73

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One of the main criticisms of dispensationalism is how almost no one believed in it until John Darby came around in thr 19th Century. Before then, most Christians were either amillennial or postmillennial.
Granted, some Christians in the early church believed in premillennialism, included some of the Fathers, but their version of it was quite different from modern dispensationalism.
Is there any evidence of Christians believing in a future restoration of Israel prior to the Protestant Reformation?
Or for 300 years after the Protestant Reformation?
 
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Clare73

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I think that much of dispensational thinking came from the eightenth and ninetenth centuries and from the likes of J N Darby, Scoffield and E W Bullnger. As to how meaningful, or helpful any of this teaching actually was, I have no idea! I, myself do have and sometimes make use of "the companion bible" and the book "figures of speech in the bible" by E W Bullinger and do find these quite useful.
As for dispensationalism, I can't say that it's something which I take much notice of. I certainly was not aware that it went back as far as the reformation.
It doesn't go back as far as the Reformation.
I am not aware that it's much taught, or that it is a mainstream subject of particular importance in the current times which we live in. What's the importance of dispensation to us in these days?
 
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Clare73

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Hi and it goes back to when Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Tim 1:5 where the word EDIFYING is not in the Greek text .

It isthe Greek word DISPENSATION / OIKONOMIA instead , an anyone can check the Greek text and see .

dan p
That's "dispensation of God" in 1 Timothy 1:4.
"Dispensation" also means "stewardship," where " stewardship of God" can mean divine training, or God's work, or godly edifying, or administration of God, etc.

The problem is not in the translating, the problem is not realizing that dispensation means "stewardship;" i.e., an administration of God, and does not mean a period or an epoch as in "Dispensationalism," which cannot be traced back to 1 Timothy 1:4.

"Dispensationalism" is a new comer to Christianity.
 
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9Rock9

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Or for 300 years after the Protestant Reformation?

Alright, it doesn't go as far back as the Reformation, that was misleading on my part. I do recall reading somewhere about some Puritans believing in a future restoration of Israel though, so it does go a little further back than Darby
 
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Trusting in Him

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Yes, I have been aware that that many of the puritans believing in the restoration of Israel. I am assuming that I probably read about this somewhere, but I don't know where. I have read some bits which the puritans have written in a 57 volume bible commentary called the "Biblical Illustrator" which was compiled by Joseph Exell. A lot of the puritan writings are very long winded and wordy, so they can be really demanding to read, but the Biblical Illustrator is set out according too the books, chapters and verses of the bible and is much easier to read as it is in more accessible sized portions. The biblical illustrator also includes more recent authors such as Spurgeon and others from the ninetenth century.

I have found this commentary really useful and helpful at times. I also have a six volume un-edited copy of Matthew Henery's commentary as well, which is also good. I do not find that all ninetenth century and more modern commentaries are equally good as commentaries which are just lots of words with not always inspired content do not help me. Commentaries which do not cause me to read my bible more are just pointless. I don't want to be someone who knows about the bible from reading other books. I want to be someone who knows the bible as a result of reading it a lot for myself.

These are times of great deception and of doctrinal ideas which sound o.k. to those who get their doctrinal understanding from other people and not from the bible itself and I don't want to do that myself, as I don't want to be that sort of Christian.
 
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Clare73

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Alright, it doesn't go as far back as the Reformation, that was misleading on my part. I do recall reading somewhere about some Puritans believing in a future restoration of Israel though, so
it does go a little further back than Darby
To Margaret McDonald.
 
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Dan Perez

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Alright, it doesn't go as far back as the Reformation, that was misleading on my part. I do recall reading somewhere about some Puritans believing in a future restoration of Israel though, so it does go a little further back than Darby


And when anyone checks 1 Tim 1:4 and 1 Cor 9:17 and Col 25 the people at Colosse new about DISPENSATIONS , and also those at EPH 3:2 paul says to them , Seeing that you have HEARD of of the Dispensation having been given to me for you , Darby and MacDonald are NOT in the bible as those that Paul wrote too , are THEY ??

dan p
 
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Biblewriter

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Two relatively recent books have totally destroyed the myth that Dispensaionalism began in the nineteenth century with the teachings of John Nelson Darby.

The first of these books to appear was "Dispensationalism Before Darby," by the late William C. Watson, which conclusively proved that the central concepts of Dispensationalism were being widely taught in the 1600s and 1700s, long before Darby's birth in 1800.

Soon after this was published came "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris (me,) which conclusively proved that these same concepts were taught throughout the first few centuries of the church.

Specifically, as to the question of a restoration of Israel, My book quotes the following:

Hippolytus wrote:

“Thus, then, does the prophet set forth these things concerning the Antichrist, who shall be shameless, a war-maker, and despot, who, exalting himself above all kings and above every god, shall build the city of Jerusalem, and restore the sanctuary.” (“On Daniel,” by Hippolytus, part 2, paragraph 39, from “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” vol. 5, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition ed. by A. Cleveland Coxe.)

And Cyril of Jerusalem wrote:

“13. Now these things we teach, not of our own invention, but having learned them out of the divine Scriptures used in the Church, and chiefly from the prophecy of Daniel just now read; as Gabriel also the Archangel interpreted it, speaking thus: The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall surpass all kingdoms. And that this kingdom is that of the Romans, has been the tradition of the Church’s interpreters...
“15. And again he says, Who opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped; (against every God; Antichrist forsooth will abhor the idols,) so that he seateth himself in the temple of God. What temple then? He means, the Temple of the Jews which has been destroyed. For God forbid that it should be the one in which we are! Why say we this? That we may not be supposed to favour ourselves. For if he comes to the Jews as Christ, and desires to be worshipped by the Jews, he will make great account of the Temple, that he may more completely beguile them; making it supposed that he is the man of the race of David, who shall build up the Temple which was erected by Solomon. And Antichrist will come at the time when there shall not be left one stone upon another in the Temple of the Jews, according to the doom pronounced by our Saviour..." (“The Catechetical Lectures of our Holy Father, Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem,” by Cyril of Jerusalem, Lecture XV - “On the Clause, And Shall Come in Glory to Judge the Quick and the Dead; Of Whose Kingdom There Shall Be No End,” paragraphs 13, 15, from “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, second series, vol. 7, ed. Philip Schaff, D.D., LL.D. and Henry Wace, D.D.)

Hilary of Poitiers wrote:

“Remember, God the Father set the day within His authority, that it might not come to the knowledge of man, and the Son, when asked before, replied that He did not know, but now, no longer denying His knowledge, replies that it is theirs not to know, for the Father has set the times not in His own knowledge, but in His own authority. The day and the moment are included in the word ‘times’: can it be, then, that He, Who was to restore Israel to its kingdom, did not Himself know the day and the moment of that restoration?" (“On the Trinity,” by Hilary of Poitiers, book IX, paragraph 75, from “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, second series, vol. 7, ed. Philip Schaff, D.D., LL.D. and Henry Wace, D.D.)

And even as late as the fifth century, Augustin wrote:

"It is a familiar theme in the conversation and heart of the faithful, that in the last days before the judgment the Jews shall believe in the true Christ, that is, our Christ, by means of this great and admirable prophet Elias who shall expound the law to them. For not without reason do we hope that before the coming of our Judge and Saviour Elias shall come, because we have good reason to believe that he is now alive; for, as Scripture most distinctly informs us, he was taken up from this life in a chariot of fire. When, therefore, he is come, he shall give a spiritual explanation of the law which the Jews at present understand carnally, and shall thus ‘turn the heart of the father to the son,’ that is, the heart of fathers to their children; for the Septuagint translators have frequently put the singular for the plural number. And the meaning is, that the sons, that is, the Jews, shall understand the law as the fathers, that is, the prophets, and among them Moses himself, understood it." (“The City of God,” by Augustin, translated by Rev. Marcus Dods, D.D., book XX, chapter 29, from “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, volume 1, ed. by Philip Schaff, D.D., LL.D.)

And as to the time shortly after the publication of the King James Version of thr Bible first made Bibles widely available in England, William Lowth. who was boorn in 1661, just 50 years after he first publication of the KJV Bible, wrote concerning Ezekiel 28:25:

“When 1 shall have gathered the House of Israel from among the people among whom they were scattered, &c.] This, if we follow the literal Sense of the Words, is a plain Prophecy of the general Restoration of the Jews and their Return into their own Land, as will appear, by comparing the Words with the Parallel Texts in this Prophet, via,. Chap. xi. 17. xx. 38, 41. xxxiv. 13. xxxvi. 24. xxxvii. 12, 14, 21, 25. xxxix. 27. and the Rules laid down concerning the Division of the Land among the Twelve Tribes, Chap, xlvii, and xlviii, do very much favour this Interpretation. Compare Isa. Ixv. 9, 10. Jer. xxx. 18. xxxii. 41. in which Prediction most of the other Prophets agree with him: See the Note on Isa. xi. 11.” (
“Commentary Upon the Prophet Ezekiel,” by William Lowth, pub. by W. Mears, London, 1723, 1728 ed, Pp. 232-233, available online at:
www.globalgreyebooks.co.uk/commentary-upon-the-prophet-ezekiel/)
 
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BABerean2

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Two relatively recent books have totally destroyed the myth that Dispensaionalism began in the nineteenth century with the teachings of John Nelson Darby.

The claim that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church is a relatively new concept.
All of the basic tenants of modern Dispensational Theology can be found in the Jesuit book and Edward Irving's Preliminary Discourse of that book, "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza.

Edward Irving used the word "Dispensation" thirteen times on one page in his Preliminary Discourse.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


.
 
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Biblewriter

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The claim that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church is a relatively new concept.
All of the basic tenants of modern Dispensational Theology can be found in the Jesuit book and Edward Irving's Preliminary Discourse of that book, "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza.

Actually, Irenaeus, writing around the years 186-188, Victorinus, writing around the year 240, and another ancient writer whose name and date are unknown, but whose writing was cataloged in church libraries before the year 800, ALL clearly taught that "the Jews" would be brought to faith in Christ AFTER "the church" had been "suddenly caught up."
This is EXACTLY what modern Dispensationalism teaches, and which you, in a WILLFUL attempt to DECEIVE, call a doctrine of "coming to salvation outside the church."

Edward Irving used the word "Dispensation" thirteen times on one page in his Preliminary Discourse.
That is not NEARLY as many times as Irenaeus used that same word, writing around the years 186-188.
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You have been confronted with HARD PROOF, of everything I have said here, in the form of EXACT QUOTATIONS, with FULL DOCUMENTATION of sources. Yet you continue to post your DISINFORMATION.
 
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Actually, Irenaeus, writing around the years 186-188, Victorinus, writing around the year 240, and another ancient writer whose name and date are unknown, but whose writing was cataloged in church libraries before the year 800, ALL clearly taught that "the Jews" would be brought to faith in Christ AFTER "the church" had been "suddenly caught up."
This is EXACTLY what modern Dispensationalism teaches, and which you, in a WILLFUL attempt to DECEIVE, call a doctrine of "coming to salvation outside the church."


That is not NEARLY as many times as Irenaeus used that same word, writing around the years 186-188.
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You have been confronted with HARD PROOF, of everything I have said here, in the form of EXACT QUOTATIONS, with FULL DOCUMENTATION of sources. Yet you continue to post your DISINFORMATION.
Where have you posted these quotes? I am really curious where you're getting that from Irenaeus.
 
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BABerean2

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Actually, Irenaeus, writing around the years 186-188, Victorinus, writing around the year 240, and another ancient writer whose name and date are unknown, but whose writing was cataloged in church libraries before the year 800, ALL clearly taught that "the Jews" would be brought to faith in Christ AFTER "the church" had been "suddenly caught up."
This is EXACTLY what modern Dispensationalism teaches, and which you, in a WILLFUL attempt to DECEIVE, call a doctrine of "coming to salvation outside the church."


That is not NEARLY as many times as Irenaeus used that same word, writing around the years 186-188.
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You have been confronted with HARD PROOF, of everything I have said here, in the form of EXACT QUOTATIONS, with FULL DOCUMENTATION of sources. Yet you continue to post your DISINFORMATION.

I have seen your Irenaeus claim in the past, and it does not prove what you are claiming.

Bring all of the quotations you are claiming above out here and let us see them.

Can you back up what you are claiming, or do you expect us to accept only your claims of "HARD PROOF" ?


When you point one finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back in your direction.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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Where have you posted these quotes? I am really curious where you're getting that from Irenaeus.

They are documented in great detail in my book, "Ancient Dispendational Truth."
 
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BABerean2

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They are documented in great detail in my book, "Ancient Dispendational Truth."


How can you be an unbiased witness when you are trying to sell your book, instead of showing us the quotations from the Early Church Fathers?


.
 
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How can you be an unbiased witness when you are trying to sell your book, instead of showing us the quotations from the Early Church Fathers?


.
I am not trying to sell books. I have better things to do than to post many long passages from my books, to people who have no desire to know the truth.
 
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