Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

tall73 · Dec 6, 2021

Leaf473 said:
So he pays the penalty for tempting us. But either we or Jesus pay the penalty for the actual sins we do.

Sounds reasonable.

But it is not what Ellen White was saying. Here is another statement by her:

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

BobRyan · Dec 6, 2021

tall73 said:
Bob, it is not his sin because you did it! His sin is temptation. You did the sin.

indeed as I keep saying - two sins, his in tempting mine in doing whatever it is - and his guilt in tempting someone who is a child of God is greater - his debt greater - then when tempting a member of his own kingdom, Degrees of debt owed as Christ teaches in Luke 12 rather than "Infinite debt owed by each person"

BobRyan · Dec 6, 2021

tall73 said:
This time from Patriarchs and Prophets:

She says that his part is all the sins taken from the sanctuary Bob, and in fact all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God. So she does have him bearing your sins Bob.

Only in the sense of his part in "causing" in "tempting" to get them committed.

Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while he was in the Most Holy place, he placed back upon the originator of sin, the Devil. He must suffer the punishment of these sins. {1SG 198.1}

In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God’s people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness. {GC 658.1}

"so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin, in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin, and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil." {GC 485.3}

As the sin offering - atoning and substitutionary:

Christ having paid the debt of all sin for all humans that have ever lived..

NOT as a sin offering - NOT atoning or substitutionary

all the wicked - each paying for their own debt of sin.
Satan also paying his full debt for sins he causes including the added debt of the sin he instigates among the saints.

But he is then to be deprived of his power and left to reflect upon the part which he has acted since his fall, and to look forward with trembling and terror to the dreadful future, when he must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for all the sins that he has caused to be committed. {SR 416.1}

Leaf473 said:
So he pays the penalty for tempting us. But either we or Jesus pay the penalty for the actual sins we do.

Sounds reasonable.

Agreed and when you consider that even Tall73 agrees with me that Adventists teach (And that includes Ellen White) that Christ paid the debt of sin for all sins that all humans in all of time have ever committed -- AND that Adventists do not teach that the scapegoat is a sin offering at all - there is no other option left other than satan paying for his guilt in tempting others where there is added guilt, added debt owed, in tempting the saints who are not of satan's kingdom.

Now let's suppose for a second that we give Tall73 the benefit of the doubt and agree that all Adventist agree to believe whatever Tall73 says about that added debt being the full debt owed for the sins of the saints.

That would mean that by even Tall73's confession - he admits we teach that

1. all sin for all humans: paid by Christ, though the wicked do not benefit from that
2. the wicked pay for their own sin,though it was already paid for by Christ
3. Satan pays the debt of all his own sin...which of course was not for paid by Christ
4. and then to Satan is added the full debt of sin already paid by Christ for the saints. Yet Satan's suffering is not as a "sin offering" not to 'benefit others' but rather "just more debt piled on Satan" even though Christ already fully paid it in atoning substitutionary form freeing the saints from it.

At BEST I don't see how Tall73 gets more mileage than that out of his idea.
At BEST he could complain that this is "unfair" to Satan.

LoveGodsWord · Dec 6, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Well that is something you would need to prayerfully study through the scriptures if you are in disagreement or confused. You have not provided any scripture to show that Jesus represents the scapegoat. Meanwhile you have been provided scripture that shows that it is only blood atonement that pays he penalty for sin (death) and the application of the blood through the high Priest that achieves Gods forgiveness of sins.

According to the scriptures "the scapegoat" is only presented before God for atonement once all the final atonement and the cleansing of the sanctuary has been completed in the yearly ministration of the Priesthood (Great day of atonement) through blood sacrifice. At this point once all of God's peoples sins are atoned for through the blood sacrifice of "the Lords goat" then "the scapegoat" is presented before the Lord where all the sins of God's people are transferred to the scapegoat by that great High Priest (Jesus; Hebrews 7:1-25 ) for the removing of all sin from the presence of God. At which time the scapegoat which is "kept alive" (no sin atonement) is led away captive by a strong man into the wilderness (Leviticus 16:20-22).

An application of making Jesus being "the scapegoat" here makes the blood atonement of Jesus through "the Lords goat" of non-effect and also does not fit any the ant-type applications. You were also shown that the Hebrew meaning of "scapegoat" from the BDB Hebrew dictionary means to "be gone" "fallen angel."

You also may want to consider some interesting comments from Jewish commentaries and the Apocrypha (Book of Enoch).

"Azazel was probably a demonic being. Apocryphal Jewish works, composed in the last few centuries before the Christian era, tell of angels who were lured into rebellion against God. In these writings, Azazel is one of the two leaders of the rebellion. And posttalmudic documents tell a similar story about two rebel angels, Uzza and Azzael—both variations of the name Azazel. These mythological stories, which must have been widely known, seem to confirm the essentially demonic character of the old biblical Azazel" (Union of American Hebrew Congregations, The Torah-a Modern Commentary, page 859).

The book of Enoch

In the Book of Enoch, Azazel is a fallen angel who teaches mankind unrighteous ways. As a result, he is bound and sentenced to the desert forever. It also contains another tradition typically taught on the Day of Atonement—that Satan is the author of human sin: “And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.' In other words, the ascribing of all human sin to a fallen angel is from the very same Jewish tradition that identifies the azazel as a demon.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged - H5799

H5799. azazel; עֲזָאזֵל noun [masculine] entire removal (reduplicated intensive (Ges§ 30 n. Sta§ 124 a), abstract, √ [עזל] = Arabic remove, see BährSymb. ii. 668 Winii. 659 ff. Me SchenkelBL. i. 256; > most, proper name of spirit haunting desert, Thes Di DrHastings, DB a fallen angel, Lev 16:8ff. being late, according to CheZAW xv (1895), 153 ff., Ency. Bib., who derives from עזזאֿל; compare BenzEncy. Bib.], as in Jewish angelology, where probably based on interpret. of 16:8ff.; name not elsewhere); — ׳ע 16:8, 10 (twice in verse); 16:26 in ritual of Day of Atonement, = entire removal of sin and guilt from sacred places into desert on back of goat, symbol of entire forgiveness.

.............

You were also shown that both the final blood atonement through death of "the Lords goat" and the Great high Priest interceding on our behalf represents Jesus. You were also shown that Jesus as our great high Priest transfers all the sins of God's people after final atonement and the cleansing of the sanctuary has been completed to "the scapegoat" which removes all sin from the presence of God that was led by a strong man into the wilderness which has application at the second coming where the angel of the Lord leads Satan captive leading him to the bottomless pit for 1000 years after the final atonement and cleansing of the Sanctuary has been completed before the coming of Christ (Revelation 22:11-15).

So I think perhaps it might be a good idea to prayerfully take the time to study the topic for yourself. Having "the scapegoat" representing Jesus has no scriptural support for this view and neither does it have any anti type fulfillment in the new covenant and as shown earlier makes the blood of the cross and Christs sacrifice of non-effect making a mockery of the death of Jesus. So with these thoughts in mind as posted earlier, perhaps you can pray about it. Everything above has already been proven to you from the scriptures.

Just the fact that the scriptures in Leviticus 16 tell us that there are two types of goats one being "the Lords goat" and the other being "the scapegoat" and that "the Lords goat" is used for blood atonement while "the scapegoat" is not used for blood atonement should tell you that there are two very different offerings for sin being made here. I will leave that between you and God to think about as these are God's Words not mine (Leviticus 16:8-10; Leviticus 15:22).

Your response here...

Leaf473 said:
And now narrowing it down..

This does not narrow anything down leaf but is simply avoiding and not addressing most of the content that you are responding to.

Leaf473 said:
I have prayerfully studied the scriptures. I'm not in disagreement with them. I'm confused about why you think what you do.

This is a good example of what I posted earlier. Even after a full scriptural explanation has been provided you claim your confused but are not able to tell me why your confused or what you are in disagreement with.

Leaf473 said:
Since you and I don't agree, I think a good course of action would be for us to have a prayerful discussion. That's what I would like to do.

So what is it that you do not agree on? I do prayerfully discuss the scriptures. How about you? This only works however if we are opened to be led by God's Spirit. Many simply think to close their eyes and ears to seeing and hearing Gods' Word according to Isaiah 6:9-10 which Jesus would quote to people in His day in Matthew 13:15-16 and Paul in Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27. We should not be afraid to come to the light of Gods' Word because it is only here we can find Jesus and know the truth of His Word as He guides us with His Spirit. Let's therefore pray that God will be our guide and teacher according to His promises and also pray that we do not close our eyes and ears to seeing and hearing Gods Word.

Leaf473 said:
I don't believe that I need to. For me that's not the issue.

I see. So you do not believe you need to prove your position from the scriptures? For me I do not think our discussion will go very far because for me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29).

Leaf473 said:
It sounds like White thinks that Satan pays the final penalty. Is that different from what you believe?

This is another good example of how our discussions plays out. I have posted on this many times now as to what I believe but you still ask the same question over and over. As posted earlier throughout this thread your conflating atonement through blood sacrifice with atonement by paying the penalty of sin without blood atonement that results in the second death where all of the wicked pay the penalty for their own sins. That is what those EGW statements are referring to.

As posted earlier, there are two goats that are made for sin offerings (Leviticus 16:5). After casting lots the two goats are determined as "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat". It is only "the Lords goat" that is sacrificed for sin atonement through blood sacrifice (Leviticus 16:8-10). Once the final atonement is made for God's people through blood sacrifice and the cleansing of the sanctuary by "the Lords goat" and the yearly ministration of the priesthood is completed for the final atonement and the forgiveness of the sins of all of God's people then the Great High Priest lays His hands on "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) all sin is confessed by the Great High Priest (Jesus) which is transferred to "the scapegoat" (Leviticus 16:20-22).

The scapegoat is then led away "alive" by a strong man removing the all the sins from Gods people and the presence of God into the wilderness which is fulfilled at the second coming (see Leviticus 16:21-22; fulfillment in Revelation 20:1-3). Atonement for the sins of Gods' people has already been made by "the Lords goat" through blood sacrifice. This means that "the Lord's goat" as a sin offering dies and pays the penalty for our sins through death (the wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23). While blood atonement is made by the Great High Priest ministering the blood of "the Lords goat" before God so we can receive Gods' forgiveness of sins. At this stage Gods' people do not have any more sin as this has been purchase through blood atonement through "the Lords goat" (Jesus). All this is the work of Christ on our behalf.

The transferring and removal of all the sins from the presence of God is for the final atonement with God *see Leviticus 16:10 in the yearly ministration of the Sanctuary (Day of atonement). This takes place only after all the sins of Gods' people have been atoned for and the Sanctuary has been cleansed through blood sacrifice.

Once atonement has been completed "the scapegoat" is then brought in before the Lord to make atonement with him (Leviticus 16:10) and the Great High Priest (Jesus) lays his hands on the head of "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) and confesses all the sins of Gods' people transferring it to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) that is then led away by a strong man into the wilderness to remove all the sins of Gods' people from the presence of God. (Leviticus 16:20-22).

The transferring of all the sins of Gods' people to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel)" represents all the sins of God's people being removed from the presence of God given back to satan as the originator of all sin that was purchased by blood sacrifice from "the Lords goat" (Jesus). This is Gods' work through Christ who also represents our great high Priest. Leviticus 16:10 [10], But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

The scapegoat does not make blood atonement for sin in the yearly ministration of the Priesthood. All the wicked and Satan atone for their own sin through the second death in the lake of fire is not the same as sin sacrifice through blood atonement in Jesus dying for the sins of the world for all those who believe and follow him. As the sins of God's people are all transferred to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) they no longer belong to Gods' people as they have been purchased through blood atonement from "the Lords goat" who then transfers then to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) who atones for all sin in the lake of fire. I type of final burnt offering because the Lord and the final removal of all sin and death which is completed at the second coming as shown at the final atonement of "the Lords goat in Revelation 22:11-15 and the removal of all sin from the presence of God through "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) in Revelation 20.

Now does this make sense to you?

LoveGodsWord wrote: According to the scriptures "the scapegoat" is only presented before God for atonement once all the final atonement and the cleansing of the sanctuary has been completed in the yearly ministration of the Priesthood (Great day of atonement) through blood sacrifice. At this point once all of God's peoples sins are atoned for through the blood sacrifice of "the Lords goat" then "the scapegoat" is presented before the Lord where all the sins of God's people are transferred to the scapegoat by that great High Priest (Jesus; Hebrews 7:1-25 ) for the removing of all sin from the presence of God. At which time the scapegoat which is "kept alive" (no sin atonement) is led away captive by a strong man into the wilderness (Leviticus 16:20-22).

Your response here...

Leaf473 said:
This then differs from Satan who returns and then is destroyed as you say.

No. Read Revelation 20:1-3 which has it's fulfillment in the removing of "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) into the wilderness for 1000 years before being released for a short time before being destroyed in the Lake of fire (Revelation 20). Leviticus does not say that "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) lives forever and does not return.

Leaf473 said:
That same resource says:
"1b) meaning dubious" Strong's #5799 - עֲזָאזֵל - Old Testament Hebrew Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

No. Sorry leaf, that is not the same resource and no it does not say the same thing. As posted earlier three different sources were provided that were all in agreement. These included a (1). Jewish commentary on the meaning of the name Azazel, (2). the Apocrypha book of Enoch and (3). the BDB and English Lexicon below. All three independent sources are in agreement.

Source (1) shows what the Jews thought the meaning of the name of Azazel was;
Source (2) refers to Azazel from the Apocrypha as the leader of the fallen angels;
Source (3) provides the Hebrew meaning of Azazel as the "removal" "fallen angel" with context to the Day of atonement (Leviticus 16).

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged - H5799
H5799. Azazel; עֲזָאזֵל noun [masculine] entire removal (reduplicated intensive (Ges§ 30 n. Sta§ 124 a), abstract, √ [עזל] = Arabic remove, see BährSymb. ii. 668 Winii. 659 ff. Me SchenkelBL. i. 256; > most, proper name of spirit haunting desert, Thes Di DrHastings, DB a fallen angel, Lev 16:8ff. being late, according to CheZAW xv (1895), 153 ff., Ency. Bib., who derives from עזזאֿל; compare BenzEncy. Bib.], as in Jewish angelology, where probably based on interpret. of 16:8ff.; name not elsewhere); — ׳ע 16:8, 10 (twice in verse); 16:26 in ritual of Day of Atonement, = entire removal of sin and guilt from sacred places into desert on back of goat, symbol of entire forgiveness.

It is the three independent sources used together the make the application the name Azazel (scapegoat) conclusive in my opinion. You might also find it interesting that "the wilderness" term used here was a reference to "the desert" and that Jesus when he began His ministry was tempted by the devil in the desert (Matthew 4). Also, the goat in the occult is a major symbol for Satan and Satanism. You could argue that on if there was only one string of evidence above is provided that "it is not conclusive but when you have all the evidence provided above and all the scripture support already provided is it still "inconclusive" in your view?

Leaf473 said:
I think this is where things start to break down in your reasoning. I don't see any solid support for the final atonement of all time being done with a scapegoat.

I suggest then perhaps you study up more in what the great day of atonement was all about. In the old covenant it was the final atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary from all the sins of the people of God before the new year. You are simply wrong here.

Leaf473 said:
I have no idea why you keep referencing Revelation 22:11ff.

I referenced Revelation 22:11-15 (not 11 alone). It was provided as an anti-type fulfillment of the final announcement of the cleansing of the Sanctuary through the final atonement when all the work of Jesus has been completed in the heavenly Sanctuary just prior to the second coming and the fulfillment of the anti-type of the great day of atonement. Revelation 20:1-3 was also provided as an anti-type fulfillment of satan as "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) being led into wilderness and being bound 1000 years.

Take care.

LoveGodsWord · Dec 6, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Leviticus 16:8-22 show that it is only "the Lord's goat" that makes blood sacrifice to pay the penalty of sin (death) and to cleanse the sanctuary from all the sins of God's people which is completed through our great High Priest (Both of these representing Jesus in the new covenant; see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). After all of the sins of Gods' people have been purchased and atoned for through blood sacrifice (the death of Jesus and Jesus as our Great high Priest interceding on our behalf before God making blood atonement so we can receive God's forgiveness of sins do we have forgiveness of sins. Only after the final atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary has been completed and all of God's peoples sins have been forgiven and atoned for through blood sacrifice, is the "scapegoat" brought in before the presence of God where Jesus as our great High Priest lays his hands on the head of the scapegoat and transfers all the sins from God's people to "the scapegoat". At this time the scapegoat is "kept alive" and removed from the presence of God by a strong man into the wilderness. Satan (the scapegoat) does not die for your sins here it is kept alive. Only Jesus dies for our sins as "the Lords goat" through blood sacrifice. The scapegoat only has all the sins of Gods' people transferred to it from the Great High Priest (Jesus) which is then led away from the presence of God. Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Your response here...

Leaf473 said:
So when you wrote earlier:
"Satan is not paying the price for our sins accept when he is finally destroyed..."
Did you mistype?

No. See scriptural comments on the "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) already provided.

Leaf473 said:
But if we consider this sentence: Satan is not paying the price for our sins except when he is finally destroyed. The implication is that Satan is paying the price for our sin when he is finally destroyed. That kind of sounds like what White believed. Is that what you believe?

No your comments here only show you do not understand what the EGW comment was about or what has already been shared with you from the scriptures in regards to the day of atonement. As posted from the beginning. Perhaps you can pray about it and study it before we continue our discussion.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Dec 6, 2021

Leaf473 said:
So is that a Yes, you do want me to say when I don't understand what you're saying?

I believe I gave the link earlier. It says "meaning dubious"

Strong's #5799 - עֲזָאזֵל - Old Testament Hebrew Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

You can get a fuller explanation if you go down to the "Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Definition"

Looks like there have been a lot of opinions about it over the centuries.

But sure, fallen Angel is a possible definition. It's just not the only possible definition.

I understand that the link is there in your mind.

I see some issues with trying to link them. For example, Revelation 22:11-15 doesn't mention the sanctuary or temple. I think it is probably talking about the New Jerusalem. I don't think there is a temple in the new Jerusalem.

#############
I think this is how our discussions often go. You see something in the scriptures, I see something different. It's not a matter of me ignoring what you have posted.

Can we agree that while this link is something a person could see, it is not stated in the scriptures?

Can you agree that when something is not stated in the scriptures, different people will often see different links and implications?

I don't know, maybe the strong man has treats he tosses to the goat every now and then.

Also, I said tied up as a matter of common speaking. But the scriptures of course say that Satan is bound.

Is any of this conclusive in itself? No, I don't think so.

Yes, it's symbolic. Not every part of the symbolism transfers over. That's one of my main points!

Yes, while the scapegoat probably doesn't return to the people whose sins he was removing.

Cool!

I don't know that it has to represent a particular being.

That's why I gave the quote from Freud "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". Sometimes a lamb is Jesus. Sometimes it's just a lamb. Sometimes a snake is satan. Sometimes it's just a snake.

If Jesus is both the high priest and the Lord's goat, then we already have a single being corresponding to two different characters in the story. So obviously there is not an exact one-to-one correspondence between beings in real life and characters in the story.

Cool again!

You too, my man!

This is repetition already addressed in a detailed response from the scriptures
Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Dec 6, 2021

tall73 said:
tall73 said: ↑ I still have not heard you answer why satan pays the final penalty for the sins of God's people if Jesus already paid the penalty for the sins of God's people. Ellen White wrote: When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, must bear the final penalty.

Then please take the time to read my posts that have already addressed your question in detail. This has already been addressed some time ago. It was because he was the instigator of all sin. After Jesus purchased our sins through blood sacrifice they were no longer our sins. In the great day of atonement, all of the sins of God's people were then transferred to "the scapegoat" that was "kept alive" and led into the wilderness by a strong man. This part of the work takes place after the Sanctuary has been atoned for and God's people have been forgiven through blood sacrifice made by "the Lords goat" and the Great high priest.

After the final atonement has been completed through blood sacrifice to make atonement for all of God's people, "the scapegoat" was then brought before the Lord and all the sins of God's people were then transferred to "scapegoat" by the great high Priest at which time all sin was removed from the presence of the Lord as the scapegoat was "kept alive" and led away into the wilderness by a strong man *Leviticus 16:8-22.

The part of the anti type has application to the second coming at the completion of the cleansing of the Sanctuary in Revelation 22:11-15 and when the Angel of the Lord takes hold of Satan and bounds him for 1000 years ("kept alive"). After this time all the wicked as well as the devil and his angels are then thrown into the lake of fire where they will all atone for their sins typified as the final burnt offering and the removal of all sin and death from the presence of the Lord.

tall73 said:
So you have zero responsibility for your sin? The devil made you do it? Is it your sin at all then?

I am a sinner. Jesus Christ purchased my sins through blood atonement and now I have been forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:1-4) See, the discussion on "the Lords goat" already provided. He saves me by His grace every day.

tall73 said:
This disagrees with what Ellen White said: When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, must bear the final penalty.

No it disagrees with your interpretation of what EGW says. Jesus did indeed purchase our sins. We do not own them anymore. They have been transferred to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel)" who pays the penalty of these sins in the Lake of fire with all the wicked.

tall73 said:
It says they are the sins of His people.

Correct. The sins of Gods' people are transferred to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel)" they no longer are responsible for them.

tall73 said:
How can your sin be transferred to a sinful being?

Read Leviticus 16:20-22. The goats are symbols of Christs sacrifice and satan as "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel)". Goats are not sinful beings.

tall73 said:
And you already admitted he is not "kept alive" when he pays the final penalty.

See Revelation 20:1-3.

tall73 said:
LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Satan is not paying the price for our sins accept when he is finally destroyed in the lake of fire.

So once again, you do have him paying the price for our sins by death in the lake of fire. But you say Jesus "purchased" our sins, but only to move them around.

No. Please read Leviticus 16:20-22.

tall73 said:
Why do you keep changing what she said?

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, must bear the final penalty.

The sins of God's people are placed on satan per Ellen White.

How can satan bear other people's sins? And why would he need to if Jesus paid the price?

You seem to be indicating that Jesus "purchased" sins as a commodity and transferred them to satan. So Jesus died to move sins around, so that they can be placed on satan so that he can suffer longer?

If that sounds absurd, which it does, that is because I am following the logic you spelled out above.

I did not change what EGW said. I only provided scripture in support of what EGW said and have shown through the scriptures that how you interpret what EGW has said was not correct. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. That is between you and God to work through.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Dec 6, 2021

@tall73 and @Leaf473 now that Bob, is back I have some real life work to catch up on plus a power outage today. I just want to say I have enjoyed our discussion and the opportunity to share Gods' Word with you all. I may not be back for a while but will pop in every now and then if I get some time. My hope is only the best for you guys

Take Care. :wave:

BobRyan · Dec 6, 2021

Leaf473 said:
This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church.
What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? - Adventist.org

What is the test that a person's "writings speak with prophetic authority"?

Prophets speak with prophetic authority -
God communicates with Prophets as He says in Numbers 12:5-6

tall73 · Dec 6, 2021

BobRyan said:
indeed as I keep saying - two sins, his in tempting mine in doing whatever it is - and his guilt in tempting someone who is a child of God is greater - his debt greater - then when tempting a member of his own kingdom, Degrees of debt owed as Christ teaches in Luke 12 rather than "Infinite debt owed by each person"

Bob, his sin of tempting you is his sin.

Your sin of doing the wrong thing is your sin.

Ellen white says that your sins are placed on him. You keep trying to re-word what she said. But she said it again and again:

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

She says he bears the sins of all who come to Jesus. And those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Now that is what you accused ME of saying earlier. But she said it. And you have not explained how he bears the sins of all who come to Jesus, and the wicked bear their own sin.

BobRyan · Dec 6, 2021

tall73 said:
Bob, his sin of tempting you is his sin.

But it is greater in tempting someone not of his kingdom than in tempting one of his own.

.

tall73 said:
Ellen white says that your sins are placed on him. You keep trying to re-word what she said. But she said it again and again:
... But she said it. And you have not explained how he bears the sins of all who come to Jesus, and the wicked bear their own sin.

You are the one who is in fact stuck as pointed out in my previous post -- #623 based on what you have agreed to so far:

============================= post 623

Now let's suppose for a second that we give Tall73 the benefit of the doubt and agree that all Adventist agree to believe whatever Tall73 says about that added debt being the full debt owed for the sins of the saints.

That would mean that by even Tall73's confession - he admits we teach that

1. all sin for all humans: paid by Christ, though the wicked do not benefit from that
2. the wicked pay for their own sin,though it was already paid for by Christ
3. Satan pays the debt of all his own sin...which of course was not for paid by Christ
4. and then to Satan is added the full debt of sin already paid by Christ for the saints. Yet Satan's suffering is not as a "sin offering" not to 'benefit others' but rather "just more debt piled on Satan" even though Christ already fully paid it in atoning substitutionary form freeing the saints from it.

At BEST I don't see how Tall73 gets more mileage than that out of his idea.
At BEST he could complain that this is "unfair" to Satan.

tall73 · Dec 6, 2021

tall73 said: ↑

This time from Patriarchs and Prophets:

She says that his part is all the sins taken from the sanctuary Bob, and in fact all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God. So she does have him bearing your sins Bob.

Ellen White said:

Since Satan is the originator of sin, the direct instigator of all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God, justice demands that Satan shall suffer the final punishment. Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty.

BobRyan said:
Only in the sense of his part in "causing" in "tempting" to get them committed.

Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while he was in the Most Holy place, he placed back upon the originator of sin, the Devil. He must suffer the punishment of these sins. {1SG 198.1}

In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God’s people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness. {GC 658.1}

"so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin, in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin, and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil." {GC 485.3}

As the sin offering - atoning and substitutionary:

Christ having paid the debt of all sin for all humans that have ever lived..

NOT as a sin offering - NOT atoning or substitutionary

all the wicked - each paying for their own debt of sin.

Satan also paying his full debt for sins he causes including the added debt of the sin he instigates among the saints.

Bob, in your own quotes, he bears all the sins of the saints. All of them. And she says it more clearly here:

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

So I am asking you again. How does Satan pay the price for sins Jesus already paid the price for, the price of the sins of God's people?

How does satan make ATONEMENT for them, because that is what the text says happens with the Lord's goat:

Lev 16:10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

But he is then to be deprived of his power and left to reflect upon the part which he has acted since his fall, and to look forward with trembling and terror to the dreadful future, when he must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for all the sins that he has caused to be committed. {SR 416.1}

There you go Bob. You have him suffering for all the sins of the people of God. You have him bearing there sins. And you have him represented as a clean animal, the same type as represented Christ, being used to make atonement for the sins of God's people by his death.

You can say you don't think satan makes atonement all you want. But you have just said he pays the price that Jesus already paid!

Agreed and when you consider that even Tall73 agrees with me that Adventists teach (And that includes Ellen White) that Christ paid the debt of sin for all sins that all humans in all of time have ever committed --

Ellen White says that Jesus died for atonement.

And then she goes on to say satan has to pay the price for the sins of all who come to Jesus. And that point denies the power of the first!

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

AND that Adventists do not teach that the scapegoat is a sin offering at all

No, they try to deflect from the fact that the scapegoat is said to make atonement, that it is one of two goats brought for a sin offering, that it is a clean unblemished animal, and that the text shows God choosing between the goats for one to be the sin offering of blood, and the other to be the one to remove sin.

They ignore that they are making Jesus interchangeable with satan, and saying satan can be represented by an unblemished animal. And they brush over the fact that Ellen White repeatedly says satan must bear the sins of God's people, pay the final penalty, etc. when Jesus already did.

And they even try to re-define what Ellen White said to only be the part he played, when she clearly says that he pays for the sins of all of who come to Jesus, like you do here below:

there is no other option left other than satan paying for his guilt in tempting others where there is added guilt, added debt owed, in tempting the saints who are not of satan's kingdom.

Bob, you just reinvented her words. You accused me earlier of trying to portray that Adventists think the wicked die for their own sin, and satan dies for God's people. Well that is what Ellen White says:

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Now let's suppose for a second that we give Tall73 the benefit of the doubt and agree that all Adventist agree to believe whatever Tall73 says about that added debt being the full debt owed for the sins of the saints.

Which she says:

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

That would mean that by even Tall73's confession - he admits we teach that

1. all sin for all humans: paid by Christ, though the wicked do not benefit from that
2. the wicked pay for their own sin,though it was already paid for by Christ
3. Satan pays the debt of all his own sin...which of course was not for paid by Christ
4. and then to Satan is added the full debt of sin already paid by Christ for the saints.

Yes, that is what tall73 alleges Ellen White said, because it is:

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Yet Satan's suffering is not as a "sin offering" not to 'benefit others' but rather "just more debt piled on Satan" even though Christ already fully paid it in atoning substitutionary form freeing the saints from it.

Actually no, it is a denial of the work of Christ who's atonement is only sufficient to shuffle sins around, but it is satan who pays the final price. And it is a sick teaching that satan, a sinful being, can atone for your sins.

At BEST he could complain that this is "unfair" to Satan.

No, satan will get what he deserves, as we all know. It is unfair to cheapen the atonement of Christ that He just removes sin, but the final penalty has to be paid by another.

ChetSinger · Dec 6, 2021

tall73 said:
But it is not what Ellen White was saying. Here is another statement by her:

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Thank you for the quotations from Ellen White on this thread. When all is said and done it is her words that speak for her denomination.

ChetSinger · Dec 6, 2021

tall73 said:
Actually no, it is a denial of the work of Christ who's atonement is only sufficient to shuffle sins around, but it is satan who pays the final price. And it is a sick teaching that satan, a sinful being, can atone for your sins.

No, satan will get what he deserves, as we all know. It is unfair to cheapen the atonement of Christ that He just removes sin, but the final penalty has to be paid by another.

Amen!

BobRyan · Dec 6, 2021

============================= post 623

Now let's suppose for a second that we give Tall73 the benefit of the doubt and agree that all Adventist agree to believe whatever Tall73 says about that added debt being the full debt owed for the sins of the saints.

That would mean that by even Tall73's confession - he admits we teach that

1. all sin for all humans: paid by Christ, though the wicked do not benefit from that
2. the wicked pay for their own sin,though it was already paid for by Christ
3. Satan pays the debt of all his own sin...which of course was not for paid by Christ
4. and then to Satan is added the full debt of sin already paid by Christ for the saints. Yet Satan's suffering is not as a "sin offering" not to 'benefit others' but rather "just more debt piled on Satan" even though Christ already fully paid it in atoning substitutionary form freeing the saints from it.

At BEST I don't see how Tall73 gets more mileage than that out of his idea.
At BEST he could complain that this is "unfair" to Satan.

================
And the response?

tall73 said:
So I am asking you again. How does Satan pay the price for sins Jesus already paid the price for,

I don't think you are paying attention to the details - you already agreed to Christ doing that in the case of the wicked -

That would mean that by even Tall73's confession - he admits we teach that

1. all sin for all humans: paid by Christ, though the wicked do not benefit from that
2. the wicked pay for their own sin,though it was already paid for by Christ

Now you propose that instead of the added guilt for tempting the saints - it is really the full debt of sin for the saints paid again - just as in points number 1 and 2 above for the wicked you already have the full debt of sin being paid twice.

So since I don't go there but you do for the saints - how then is your admitting that both Christ and the wicked pay their fill debt of sin - different from your claim that both-Christ and Satan pay the full debt of sin for the saints???

And as you have already admitted and/or Lev 16 states clearly
1. SDAs do not claim the scapegoat is "a sin offering"
2. Lev 16 does not ever say "the scapegoat is a sin offering"
3. Lev 16 does not even say the scapegoat dies at all
4. Lev 16 says the person that touches the scapegoat is unclean

tall73 · Dec 6, 2021

BobRyan said:
But it is greater in tempting someone not of his kingdom than in tempting one of his own.

You are the one who is in fact stuck as pointed out in my previous post -- #623 based on what you have agreed to so far:

============================= post 623

Now let's suppose for a second that we give Tall73 the benefit of the doubt and agree that all Adventist agree to believe whatever Tall73 says about that added debt being the full debt owed for the sins of the saints.

That would mean that by even Tall73's confession - he admits we teach that

1. all sin for all humans: paid by Christ, though the wicked do not benefit from that
2. the wicked pay for their own sin,though it was already paid for by Christ
3. Satan pays the debt of all his own sin...which of course was not for paid by Christ
4. and then to Satan is added the full debt of sin already paid by Christ for the saints. Yet Satan's suffering is not as a "sin offering" not to 'benefit others' but rather "just more debt piled on Satan" even though Christ already fully paid it in atoning substitutionary form freeing the saints from it.
At BEST I don't see how Tall73 gets more mileage than that out of his idea.
At BEST he could complain that this is "unfair" to Satan.

Hardly. At best that just means that Adventists have a self-contradictory theology that says Jesus paid the price, but then says Satan had to pay final penalty.

At worst it is a blasphemous slight at the atonement of Christ saying that satan must bear the sins of God's people:

He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

tall73 · Dec 6, 2021

BobRyan said:
You are creating a story about Christ not paying for sin if someone else pays ... so then not paying for the wicked since they pay for their own debt of sin and then not paying for the righteous because in your view Satan pays a substitutionary atoning death for all the sins of all the saints instead of Christ in your spin of the Adventist doctrine.

This quote didn't age well for you Bob. Ellen White comes right out and says satan must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus.

He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

And your answer is that both can? For real?

Jesus, the spotless Son of God died to pay he price for the sins of His people. satan never could, and never will.

tall73 · Dec 6, 2021

BobRyan said:
Now let's suppose for a second that we give Tall73 the benefit of the doubt and agree that all Adventist agree to believe whatever Tall73 says about that added debt being the full debt owed for the sins of the saints.

Or let's just stop listening to Bob spinning Ellen White's statements for damage control and read what she said:

He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Yup, she says satan must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus.

Funny how you and LGW tried to deflect for pages and then attributed that view to me.

tall73 · Dec 6, 2021

BobRyan said:
I don't think you are paying attention to the details - you already agreed to Christ doing that in the case of the wicked -

That would mean that by even Tall73's confession - he admits we teach that

1. all sin for all humans: paid by Christ, though the wicked do not benefit from that
2. the wicked pay for their own sin,though it was already paid for by Christ

Really?

The people of God ACCEPTED HIS GIFT. So the "final penalty" for their sin was already paid by Jesus.

Now you propose that instead of the added guilt for tempting the saints - it is really the full debt of sin for the saints paid again

Were you meaning to say that to Ellen White? She is the one who says that repeatedly. And you are the one who spins it repeatedly because you don't want to face up to what she actually said.

He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

So since I don't go there but you do for the saints - how then is your admitting that both Christ and the wicked pay their fill debt of sin - different from your claim that both-Christ and Satan pay the full debt of sin for the saints???

Because the saints accepted the payment of the Holy Son of God. No further payment was needed.

And because satan pays for his OWN sin, just as the wicked do. He doesn't pay for other people's sins, and cannot bear other people's sins as a sinner.

And as you have already admitted and Lev 16 states clearly
1. SDAs do not claim the scapegoat is "a sin offering"
2. Lev 16 does not ever say "the scapegoat is a sin offering"

Actually it says two goats were brought for a sin offering. And you want us to believe Jesus and satan are interchangeable. And you want to ignore that the scapegoat made atonement. Even when Ellen White says the scapegoat pays the final penalty.

3. Lev 16 does not even say the scapegoat dies at all

Yet Ellen White points to satan's death.

4. Lev 16 says the person that touches the scapegoat is unclean

Because it was bearing sin out of the camp.

So yes, we agree that Adventist theology is at best a self-contradictory mess. And at worst it is a slight at the work of Christ who actually paid the penalty for the sins of God's people.

tall73 · Dec 6, 2021

@Leaf473 since the original was addressed to you, I tagged the response.

LoveGodsWord said:
As posted earlier three different sources were provided that were all in agreement. These included a (1). Jewish commentary on the meaning of the name Azazel, (2). the Apocrypha book of Enoch and (3)

These two reduce to the same because the one is based on the other.

. the BDB and English Lexicon below. All three independent sources are in agreement.

Which actually shows multiple views, and the one of "total removal" is listed first, before your fallen angel theory. And the fallen angel theory also refers back to Enoch etc.

And the LXX is also a Jewish source, around the same time as Enoch, and the translation supports the removal view.

Not to mention that some of the scholars who think it is a demon think it was borrowed from other near-eastern elimination rites, and was stuck in the text as a second source which doesn't match the first.

Moreover, those who hold that view see azazel not as the goat, but as the one the goat is for, sent to in the wilderness, where they see the demon residing.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged - H5799
H5799. Azazel; עֲזָאזֵל noun [masculine] entire removal (reduplicated intensive (Ges§ 30 n. Sta§ 124 a), abstract, √ [עזל] = Arabic remove, see BährSymb. ii. 668 Winii. 659 ff. Me SchenkelBL. i. 256;

This is an etymology distinct from the notion it is a proper name. Hence, they refer to this being the result of the reduplicated intensive. It is not supporting your view.

The notion of a fallen angel was a later one. The rite actually describes the first view--"total removal" of sin from the camp.

It is the three independent sources used together the make the application the name Azazel (scapegoat) conclusive in my opinion.

Self-referential sources and also referring to a more straight-forward meaning in line with the text that disagrees with your other sources.

You might also find it interesting that "the wilderness" term used here was a reference to "the desert" and that Jesus when he began His ministry was tempted by the devil in the desert (Matthew 4).

Yes, and you will notice that is where the scholars who take that view see satan as dwelling, and do not see the goat as satan, but sent to azazel.

Also, the goat in the occult is a major symbol for Satan and Satanism. You could argue that on if there was only one string of evidence above is provided that "it is not conclusive but when you have all the evidence provided above and all the scripture support already provided is it still "inconclusive" in your view?

I suggest then perhaps you study up more in what the great day of atonement was all about.

You want us to study what the Day of Atonement was about by studying later Jewish sources outside of Scripture and looking at how satanists portray satan in a thread on Scripture testing? Really?

Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Similar threads