Now electric vehicles are BAD for the environment

timewerx

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Really? Please give an example of "negative entropy". Just wishing that something was true does not make it so.

And as to the OP, yes electric vehicles are not perfect. They will have a negative impact on the ecology. The problem is that fossil fuels appear to have a larger negative impact. They are far greener than gasoline or diesel powered vehicles just as they are greener than coal powered vehicles.

I can't find the article anymore but it concerns an invention that turns ambient or latent heat of air or water or any liquid into other forms of energy and also dropping the temperature of the air or water at the same time.

The device operates on the basic principle of "Quantum Tunneling" using a special semiconductor barrier. Molecules bouncing around air or water would hit the surface of this barrier, transferring kinetic energy to an electron which causes the electron to "tunnel" across the barrier. Molecules that loses kinetic energy to electrons also loses heat and thus, becomes colder in temperature. The barrier emits infra red radiation at the other end but can also be tweaked to generate electricity.

The process is negative entropy because "chaos" in the random movement of air or water molecules in the form of ambient heat becomes more "ordered" by losing heat at the semiconductor barrier without any form of energy input.

The inventors never makes any claim their device can be used to generate energy but did claim their device makes chilled water without energy input.:rolleyes: It's essentially the same thing! Normally, you can't chill water without energy input but with negative entropy, you can. It has dramatic implication for energy use.

We can have many great potential inventions from the field of quantum physics but they usually end up being used in much less spectacular and benign applications like secured transmission of electronic data or like the example above, to chill water.

Unfortunately, humans tend to fear big changes even if they can be quite positive.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I can't find the article anymore but it concerns an invention that turns ambient or latent heat of air or water or any liquid into other forms of energy and also dropping the temperature of the air or water at the same time.

The device operates on the basic principle of "Quantum Tunneling" using a special semiconductor barrier. Molecules bouncing around air or water would hit the surface of this barrier, transferring kinetic energy to an electron which causes the electron to "tunnel" across the barrier. Molecules that loses kinetic energy to electrons also loses heat and thus, becomes colder in temperature. The barrier emits infra red radiation at the other end but can also be tweaked to generate electricity.

The process is negative entropy because "chaos" in the random movement of air or water molecules in the form of ambient heat becomes more "ordered" by losing heat at the semiconductor barrier without any form of energy input.

The inventors never makes any claim their device can be used to generate energy but did claim their device makes chilled water without energy input.:rolleyes: It's essentially the same thing! Normally, you can't chill water without energy input but with negative entropy, you can. It has dramatic implication for energy use.

We can have many great potential inventions from the field of quantum physics but they usually end up being used in much less spectacular and benign applications like secured transmission of electronic data or like the example above, to chill water.

Unfortunately, humans tend to fear big changes even if they can be quite positive.
Or, just maybe, it could have been pure hokum for the ignorant.
 
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Whyayeman

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And develop an engine that works on "negative entropy". Scientists, especially quantum physicists knows its possible

The device operates on the basic principle of "Quantum Tunneling" using a special semiconductor barrier. Molecules bouncing around air or water would hit the surface of this barrier, transferring kinetic energy to an electron which causes the electron to "tunnel" across the barrier. Molecules that loses kinetic energy to electrons also loses heat and thus, becomes colder in temperature. The barrier emits infra red radiation at the other end but can also be tweaked to generate electricity.

Please tell me you have understood this yourself. Otherwise I might have to agree with the poster who said this below:

just maybe, it could have been pure hokum for the ignorant.

EV batteries are sealed units. When they lose efficiency they are still good for other uses and they still contain the same amount of lithium. The metal will ultimately be recycled into new EV batteries. In any case the main metal used in EVs is iron. It too is straightforward to recycle.
 
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FireDragon76

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This isn't new though. The production of products are also part and parcel of their environmental credentials. I had heard this argument before, specifically to do with platinum and hydrogen cars. Also, the electricity needs to be generated somewhere, so introducing electric cars to countries with largely fossil fuel based grids will worsen the car-based emmissions - and likely require expansion of those grids with their concomittent extra environmental effect.

The real way to decrease emmissions is austerity, which is essentially what you are doing when you rather walk or take a bike. You can't expect that you can just continue our current lifestyle and just substituting one thing for another that it will magically solve the issue. Alternately you could actively do geo-engineering with whatever unforseen consequences those will have.

Another option is expansion of public transit.

That's difficult to do in America, though. It would mean abandoning many cities that are nearly unreformable due to the sheer amount of sprawl.
 
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Subduction Zone

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EV batteries are sealed units. When they lose efficiency they are still good for other uses and they still contain the same amount of lithium. The metal will ultimately be recycled into new EV batteries. In any case the main metal used in EVs is iron. It too is straightforward to recycle.


???? I was not responding to a claim on batteries. I was responding to the quantum woo that you just responded to.
 
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Landon Caeli

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???? I was not responding to a claim on batteries. I was responding to the quantum woo that you just responded to.

I'm pretty certain he's saying he agrees with you, if you look at it differently.
 
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Whyayeman

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I was not responding to a claim on batteries. I was responding to the quantum woo that you just responded to.

Sorry. I have edited to make my intention clearer - I hope.
 
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Aldebaran

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This isn't new though. The production of products are also part and parcel of their environmental credentials. I had heard this argument before, specifically to do with platinum and hydrogen cars. Also, the electricity needs to be generated somewhere, so introducing electric cars to countries with largely fossil fuel based grids will worsen the car-based emmissions - and likely require expansion of those grids with their concomittent extra environmental effect.

The real way to decrease emmissions is austerity, which is essentially what you are doing when you rather walk or take a bike. You can't expect that you can just continue our current lifestyle and just substituting one thing for another that it will magically solve the issue. Alternately you could actively do geo-engineering with whatever unforseen consequences those will have.

IOW, we will have to lower our standards and sacrifice progress.
 
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Which is still better than powering it with gasoline. A centralized fossil fuel electric generator is much more efficient than an ICE.

Not when you take into consideration the energy loss through all those long power lines, which is what you have with a centralized source. The grid is already overworked, hence the rolling blackouts we're already seeing. Add vehicles powered on electric, and the workload on the grid will make the electricity for your car, home, business and anything else that relies on it unreliable.
 
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Aldebaran

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Yes a bicycle.
It healthy and fun. And quite viable for many kinds of trips, tho in the USA we've dug ourselves a deep hole by designing every single thing around the automobile.

I already ride a bicycle when the destination is within a couple miles of home, and I don't need to carry much that won't fit in a backpack. Beyond that, and when Winter comes, a bicycle won't cut it. And yes, a bicycle can be ridden in Winter too. I do it. But still only limited distance. Road salt in Winter is murder on a bike as well.
 
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trunks2k

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Not when you take into consideration the energy loss through all those long power lines, which is what you have with a centralized source
To my knowledge it's STILL more efficient & cleaner (in almost the entire world, there's some areas with very dirty energy production).

The environmental cost with EVs is the upfront build cost, which is currently higher than an ICE. But in terms of a per-mile driven, EVs are the cleaner, more efficient option almost everywhere. One would expect the up front environmental cost for EVs to improve over time.
 
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Aldebaran

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To my knowledge it's STILL more efficient.

There are other things to take into consideration when it comes to efficiency. Batteries don't work so well in cold weather. Where I am right now, the highest temperature of the day is 10F. Batteries don't hold a charge so well, and discharge at a faster rate, and charging them when cold shortens their lifespan. Relying on solar for electricity generation in Winter isn't so good either since Winter is cloudier and has a lower sun angle.
Take all this together with increasing energy prices due to natural resources being regulated more by the government, and the price goes up even more, just as Obama promised.
 
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trunks2k

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There are other things to take into consideration when it comes to efficiency. Batteries don't work so well in cold weather. Where I am right now, the highest temperature of the day is 10F. Batteries don't hold a charge so well, and discharge at a faster rate, and charging them when cold shortens their lifespan.
We've had EVs for years now - we have a good idea of their lifespan. To my knowledge, if anythin, we're underestimating battery lifespan. Yes, cold weather can reduce range, but that's an issue of convenience. Everything we've seen thus far is they are the cleaner, more efficient option over the life of the vehicle.
Relying on solar for electricity generation in Winter isn't so good either since Winter is cloudier and has a lower sun angle.
Not really sure what that has to do with anything. Personally, I say we should be using nuclear as the primary electricity source.

Take all this together with increasing energy prices due to natural resources being regulated more by the government, and the price goes up even more, just as Obama promised.

And? Cost of fuel goes up for ICE too. But can an ICE take advantage of non-fossil fuel energy?
 
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Aldebaran

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Not really sure what that has to do with anything. Personally, I say we should be using nuclear as the primary electricity source.

Don't expect any expansion of nuclear power plants anytime soon. But I agree that it's probably the best source. I've heard that the technology to make it safer has dramatically improved. Now, if the government would look at that and allow it to happen.
The reason I mentioned solar is because that seems to be one of the big "green" sources of power that's supposed to replace coal and oil.

And? Cost of fuel goes up for ICE too. But can an ICE take advantage of non-fossil fuel energy?

It's only going up due to manufactured shortages. Keystone XL could have brought in 900,000 more gallons per day. Now it brings in nothing.
What does ICE mean? By the context, I assume it means a gas powered vehicle, but google didn't show it.
 
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Larniavc

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Just as the environmentalists and government people really start ramping up their efforts to make us switch from gasoline engined vehicles to electric, it's now revealed that they're bad for the planet as well.

"The EU is pumping billions into promoting electric vehicles (EVs) – 200 million are expected to be on the road by 2028. But EVs are not as green as they are portrayed: their production consumes vast amounts of cobalt, nickel, manganese and rare earths that are mined in the rainforests of Africa, Southeast Asia and South America."

Electric vehicles are stealth rainforest killers!
You link says the EV batteries weigh 440kg. They don’t they weigh about 10kg.

Edit: I’m reliably informed the above post is inaccurate.
 
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trunks2k

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You link says the EV batteries weigh 440kg. They don’t they weigh about 10kg.
Maybe individual cells weigh that much, but there's no way an EV batter weighs only 10KG.

ETA: The battery of a long range Tesla Model 3 weighs 480KG
 
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