Times of the Gentiles

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jgr

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Yet it was practiced at the birth of Lord Jesus and it continued until the temple destruction by the Romans. The Jews will rebuild the temple and start the animal sacrifices again.So they have perverted the Mosaic Covenant.

They will do nothing of the sort. The destruction in 363 AD will be a Sunday School picnic by comparison.

Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII


Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.
 
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trophy33

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Lord Jesus referenced the " Times of the Gentiles in Luke.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
So this implies a start time and a finish time to my understanding. Does it mean from the time Jerusalem is destroyed until the time Jerusalem is restored in the end times?
Or it means that the destruction of Jerusalem was completed by Gentiles. Without any shortening.

God appointed some time, lets say 3.5 years of how long the Jerusalem was to be under the attack. So the times of Gentiles were 3.5 years. When Romans pulled out of the city, the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled.
 
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trophy33

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Yes they will.
What would be a purpose of such building today? Long time after the Messiah, without Jewish prophets, without new Scriptures, without God in it, without valid sacrifices?
 
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Trusting in Him

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Lots of modern day Christians mainly rely upon the new testament scriptures in understanding such questions. but there are very many references to this subject in the old testament as well, particularly in the book of Daniel and also the minor prophets. The Jewish scholars have a different understanding of some of these things, to our own interpretations, just as many different Christian traditional have their own particular interpretations as well. Not all Jewish traditons believe exactly the same things. Some believe that pattern is prophecy, which sort of fits in with some Chritian teachings of different portions of scripture showing types, antitypes and picures of things to come. Well there are quite a few different old testament types, antitypes and pictures in the old testament, which are somewhat suggestive about end times teaching. There are too many of these to discuss these, but they are there to look at.

The massorites gave us the massoretic old testament and they added the vowel pointings, in some cases changing the vowel sounds to a word can change the meaning. I'm not sure that certain passages in the massoretic text, where not changed slightly to avoid alusions to Christ, but there are certain acorstic portions in the poetical books which although they are supposed to start each new verse with the next letter of the hebrew alphabet, appear to have some verses missing. Many of these verses are not missing in the septuigint version of the old testament. it is helpful to know whether certain books of the bible were written specifically to the Jewish nation, or to the church as it appears that the end times involvement of the church, or the Jewish nation will be different and involve different aspect of Gods will and timing for each group. Gods word as in the bible is capable of supporting various different interpretions concerning the end times, so there are often different opinions.

It seems likely to me that these difficulties concerning how to interpret these times may be intentional. Perhaps we are to recieve these things in faith and wait to see how God brings them to pass!
 
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3 Resurrections

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Lord Jesus referenced the " Times of the Gentiles in Luke.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
So this implies a start time and a finish time to my understanding. Does it mean from the time Jerusalem is destroyed until the time Jerusalem is restored in the end times?

Luke does not say the "TIME" of the Gentiles. He says "TIMES" (plural) of the Gentiles. This was a repetition of Daniel's prophecy predicting how long it would take to the end of those wonders which were contained in Daniel's visions. Daniel was told that "it shall be for a time, times, and an half: and when he shall have accomplished to shatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (Daniel 12:7).

These plural "time, times, and an half" amounted to those 42 months when Jerusalem was being trodden down by the Gentiles (as in Revelation 11:2). This was not the Romans doing this treading down of Jerusalem in AD 66-70, since Rome was absent from Jerusalem from late AD 66 until Passover in AD 70 when Titus arrived.

In between those years, Jerusalem was definitely trodden down by the warring Zealot factions, which came out of "Galilee of the GENTILES" - the Zealots' home turf. We remember "Judas the Galilean" in Acts 5:37 which led an insurrection against Rome in earlier days. The Zealot cause Judas was aligned with grew in power, and began the Jews' war with the Romans in AD 66. The Zealots coming from "Galilee of the GENTILES" caused so much civil strife and damage in Jerusalem for those 42 months that the city was weakened enough for the Romans to achieve victory in a final attack against Jerusalem in AD 70.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Yes I read that and Daniel speaks of the abomination of desolation. I see this as future also. But when is the end of the time of the gentiles?
Iin a nut shell at the 2nd coming of Jesus Look at Zech 14 which shows the day of the 2nd coming and Jerusalem is being overrun on that day when the LORD comes..
 
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trophy33

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Iin a nut shell at the 2nd coming of Jesus Look at Zech 14 which shows the day of the 2nd coming and Jerusalem is being overrun on that day when the LORD comes..
Zech was written before Christ, not after Him. So why should it be about our future and not about Zech's future?
 
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To the Preterists here. Maybe I should have tagged this thread Futurist Only. I don't mean to be rude, but if you are Preterist in any sense of the word, do me a favor and do not post here.
 
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I would

Iin a nut shell at the 2nd coming of Jesus Look at Zech 14 which shows the day of the 2nd coming and Jerusalem is being overrun on that day when the LORD comes..
But that will be during the tribulation period, during JACOB'S trouble.
 
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keras

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Iin a nut shell at the 2nd coming of Jesus Look at Zech 14 which shows the day of the 2nd coming and Jerusalem is being overrun on that day when the LORD comes..
If Zechariah 14:1-2 is read in conjunction with Revelation 13 and other Prophesies, it should be understood that that conquest will happen at the beginning of the 42 months of Satanic rule.
Then; AFTER that time of distress, Jesus will Return and dispose of Satan's army by the Sword of His Word and chain up Satan. Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 19:11-21

Note; that the faithful Christians will be taken out of Jerusalem, to a place of safety, far away; for those 1260 days. Revelation 12:14
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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If Zechariah 14:1-2 is read in conjunction with Revelation 13 and other Prophesies, it should be understood that that conquest will happen at the beginning of the 42 months of Satanic rule.
Then; AFTER that time of distress, Jesus will Return and dispose of Satan's army by the Sword of His Word and chain up Satan. Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 19:11-21

Note; that the faithful Christians will be taken out of Jerusalem, to a place of safety, far away; for those 1260 days. Revelation 12:14
Thank you elder brother, :) . I am interested in when the times of the Gentiles began and when they end or is fulfilled.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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How exactly would a future physical temple building qualify to be something Paul would call "the temple of God"?

Also, if Ezekiel's temple was built in the future then that would mean animal sacrifices would be reinstated which would contradict Hebrews 8-10 which teaches that the animal sacrifices only had the purpose of foreshadowing Christ's sacrifice and that Christ's sacrifice was the final sacrifice "once for all".

Hi in Rev 5 we see no one ever was redeemed apart from the blood of the Lamb who opens the seals. The book of Rev, Dan 70th week and and the kingdom being established on David's throne are all future. We see the man of sin in 2nd Thes 2 being revealed in the temple. This person is the beast of rev 13 and is blaspheming the LORD and exalting himself and destroyed in both books by the coming of the LORD. So the return of the temple is not for the removal of sin but the revelation of the man of sin who will be revealed in it when he performs the abomination of desolation in the temple. We see in Rev 42 months for the beast to have dominion before the LORD comes and we see the Holy city in Rev with the temple having been measured declared to be trampled by the Gentiles for exactly 42 months. Now this would coincide perfectly with a futurist view of Dan 9 and all and would be exactly in the the middle of the week.

I will agree that there is a spiritual aspect to the kingdom of God that one need enter through faith in Jesus and that is the new covenant but does not null and void all the passages that the LORD announces His predetermined counsel of what is to come to pass.

The fact that every thing is prepared for a 3rd temple right now with many pushing for a 1 world government that is opposed to everything the Bible stands for is great evidence that the futurist view holds water.

Now when the millennium begins and all Israel is saved as they are confessing that the LORD is king and the LORD is one the survivors indeed will be in a new sort of era where Jesus is physically present and ruling with a rod of iron established as undeniable son of God and king on Davids throne so at this point the LORD may institute the temple sacrifices as memorials to be acted out each year for the nation to tie together all the symbols and prophecy every year of what the LORD has done for them. You could have Jesus ruling and go through the ritual of a sin offering with the full understanding that the blood of animals had no effect and the blood of Christ was all. The word of God will be fulfilled so when you cannot understand something do not seek to null based on your understanding but believe God's word and wait on the LORD to fulfill it.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I have not forgotten that. They were the first Christians. But the majority did not accept Jesus. Have you not read that?
Of course. But, that was their choice and not something that God wanted them to do. God has wanted all of them to repent and be saved all along. Have you not read passages like 1 Timothy 2:3-4 or 2 Peter 3:9? Do you think passages like those somehow don't apply to Jews?

Some HAVE accepted Jesus, but most have not. Even now they are making plans to build the third temple.

The temple will be built by the Jews. It will be called the temple of God. It will fulfill prophecy.
I asked what would qualify such a temple to be something Paul would call "the temple of God". What is your answer to that question?
 
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Hi in Rev 5 we see no one ever was redeemed apart from the blood of the Lamb who opens the seals. The book of Rev, Dan 70th week and and the kingdom being established on David's throne are all future.
Not according to Peter. You're not allowing the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament prophecies for you, which is a mistake that Premils like yourself frequently make.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

According to Peter, the way in which Christ's kingdom was established on David's throne was by way of His resurrection. That obviously happened long ago, so your claim that He will establish His kingdom on David's throne in the future contradicts clear scripture, such as the scripture I quoted above.

His kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36), but your doctrine says it will come with observation and will be of this world. So, you are not accepting what the New Testament teaches about Christ and His kingdom.

We see the man of sin in 2nd Thes 2 being revealed in the temple. This person is the beast of rev 13 and is blaspheming the LORD and exalting himself and destroyed in both books by the coming of the LORD. So the return of the temple is not for the removal of sin but the revelation of the man of sin who will be revealed in it when he performs the abomination of desolation in the temple. We see in Rev 42 months for the beast to have dominion before the LORD comes and we see the Holy city in Rev with the temple having been measured declared to be trampled by the Gentiles for exactly 42 months. Now this would coincide perfectly with a futurist view of Dan 9 and all and would be exactly in the the middle of the week.

I will agree that there is a spiritual aspect to the kingdom of God that one need enter through faith in Jesus and that is the new covenant but does not null and void all the passages that the LORD announces His predetermined counsel of what is to csataome to pass.
You are misinterpreting those passage that you think are referring to the future, and as a result, you are contradicting what scripture clearly teaches about Christ and His kingdom. God will not dwell in any physical temple in the future, so no future physical temple could possibly be the temple of God.

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

The Lord would laugh at any attempt to build a temple for Him. He dwells in the spiritual temple of God and we are that temple!

2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:“I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

The fact that every thing is prepared for a 3rd temple right now with many pushing for a 1 world government that is opposed to everything the Bible stands for is great evidence that the futurist view holds water.
Your view doesn't hold water in scripture. That is what matters. Unbelievers building a temple is not something that is prophesied in scripture. It's meaningless. It serves to deceive people who are ignorant about what scripture teaches about the temple of God.

Now when the millennium begins and all Israel is saved as they are confessing that the LORD is king and the LORD is one the survivors indeed will be in a new sort of era where Jesus is physically present and ruling with a rod of iron established as undeniable son of God and king on Davids throne so at this point the LORD may institute the temple sacrifices as memorials to be acted out each year for the nation to tie together all the symbols and prophecy every year of what the LORD has done for them.
Where is it taught that future temple sacrifices would be performed "as memorials"?

You could have Jesus ruling and go through the ritual of a sin offering with the full understanding that the blood of animals had no effect and the blood of Christ was all. The word of God will be fulfilled so when you cannot understand something do not seek to null based on your understanding but believe God's word and wait on the LORD to fulfill it.
I never said that I don't understand something. I believe God's word. You contradict it. I understand full well what scripture teaches about the temple of God and your doctrine contradicts what scripture teaches about the temple of God.
 
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Of course. But, that was their choice and not something that God wanted them to do
Yes. Just like it will be their choice to rebuild the temple.
I asked what would qualify such a temple to be something Paul would call "the temple of God". What is your answer to that question?
Scripture citation please.
 
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We are so far apart and I have danced around many times going through our opposing views, where to do it again is pointless unless perhaps some undecided student of scriptures might benefit from it.
Thanks. That is why I asked the Preterists to pleas do not post here.
 
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Yes. Just like it will be their choice to rebuild the temple.
Such a temple would be meaningless and is not prophesied about in scripture.

Scripture citation please.
2 Thessalonians 2:4. You believe that is referring to the future physical temple that you've been talking about, right?
 
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