Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

bbbbbbb · Dec 5, 2021

Guojing said:
The original point I made regarding this concept was here Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

Curiously, that link simply redirected me to my own post.

That said, do you agree that when there is a contradiction in revelation, later revelation cancels out earlier revelation and trumps it?

DamianWarS · Dec 5, 2021

Guojing said:
Whenever you participate in a Christian discussion, its always good to remember none of us are mind readers.

All of us are strangers over the Internet, so try to focus on your own points, rather than make any conclusions about others.

thanks for your perspective and your kind way of approaching it, my intent was to communicate how your perspective feels not how you are motivated (which I of course do not know), but I apologize if that wasn't clear and it felt like the latter. in a larger point I approach the gospels missionally in that I apply its teachings as a mechanism to reach others. With statements that distance ourselves from Christ's commandments to reach others by removing our participation feels it distances itself from a missional perspective as well as counterproductive. When we read scripture there is an immediate meaning for the immediate context "Go into all the world..." is a commandment for the disciples in the immediate context. but to stop there seems to miss the point like it's only a history book with no intended application outside of the immediate context, only abstract moral lessons. with regards to Mathew 28 what is it you think it teaches us and how should it be applied to our lives today?

Presbyterian Continuist · Dec 5, 2021

RDKirk said:
OF course, all miracles are not healing miracles--let's not let the discussion take that tangent. And even a healing miracle might be "merely" an addict realizing that he is suddenly no longer addicted, if that's all it takes for him to believe.

The real phenomenon here is that "sinners" are accepting whatever they get as sufficient "miracle" while the "righteous" demand. Take the Samaritan woman at the well...it didn't take much of a miracle to convince her, while many of the "righteous" didn't even accept the raising of Lazarus.

From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. -- Matthew 11

What this verse means: "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of Heaven has been carried by sinners, and the sinners carry it forcefully."

This is an indictment against the "righteous." The most righteous should have been the first to accept the gospel, but instead it was sinners who snatched it up and ran with it like they stole it.

The Book of Acts is fairly clear about the type of signs and wonders that accompanied the preaching of the Gospel by Peter and Paul. Superimposing modern ideas about miracles such as you have described doesn't really cut the mustard, because what is described in Acts is nothing like what goes on today in the name of "miracles".

Presbyterian Continuist · Dec 5, 2021

IWalkAlone said:
Paul said gifts are to edify the Church. Where does he say they create faith in unbelievers?

I thought I had answered this already, but I couldn't find my post. I think it got lost when I tried to answer it when the site was going wonky, and I haven't been able to access the alerts for the last three days. However, the site has suddenly come right, so I can answer it now.

The gifts are not designed to generate faith in unbelievers, except possibly the gifts of prophecy and interpretation of tongues when they are manifested in fellowship meetings when unbelievers are present. This goes along with what Paul said of the effect of prophecy, that the secrets of the heart are exposed and the unbeliever falls down and worships God declaring that He is really present among the believers.

But the other gifts are directed for the building up and strengthening of the body of Christ in order to effectively preach the Gospel. But in general, the signs and wonders (heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead) are seen in the Book of Acts as accompanying the preaching of the Gospel to the unconverted. The signs and wonders were and are there to confirm the truth of the Gospel and to give unconverted seekers confidence in believing the Gospel. But it is the preaching of the Gospel that causes faith to come to the unconverted.

To use the Scripture: "Faith comes by hearing the Word of God" is not directly applied to Christian believers because they have faith in Christ already. It is the preaching of the Gospel to unconverted people that opens them to receiving saving faith when they decide to believe it. That is the context of the verse. When you read the rest of the passage you see it is directed toward the unconverted. "How will they hear without a preacher? And how can a preacher preach unless he is sent?"

Guojing · Dec 5, 2021

DamianWarS said:
thanks for your perspective and your kind way of approaching it, my intent was to communicate how your perspective feels not how you are motivated (which I of course do not know), but I apologize if that wasn't clear and it felt like the latter. in a larger point I approach the gospels missionally in that I apply its teachings as a mechanism to reach others. With statements that distance ourselves from Christ's commandments to reach others by removing our participation feels it distances itself from a missional perspective as well as counterproductive. When we read scripture there is an immediate meaning for the immediate context "Go into all the world..." is a commandment for the disciples in the immediate context. but to stop there seems to miss the point like it's only a history book with no intended application outside of the immediate context, only abstract moral lessons. with regards to Mathew 28 what is it you think it teaches us and how should it be applied to our lives today?

Matthew 28:18-20 is a specific command to the 12 apostles of Christ and not to us, the same manner in which anyone of us understand the command to Noah in Genesis 6:14 to build an ark.

There is a good reason why we cannot follow that command, the final verse had Christ commanding them to "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you".

If you read the 4 Gospels, Jesus taught the Law of Moses, including Matthew 10:5.

Our "great commission" can be found, instead in Paul's letters, especially 2 Corinthians 5:11-21

Guojing · Dec 5, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Curiously, that link simply redirected me to my own post.

That said, do you agree that when there is a contradiction in revelation, later revelation cancels out earlier revelation and trumps it?

You were replying to a post I made there, and in that post, I specified the Jerusalem Council event in Acts 15

Guojing · Dec 5, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Hopefully you meant no more BIBLICAL revelation? Otherwise...
I wonder why 1 Cor. 14 is in the Bible then?

Why do we need instruction on how to have an orderly service that includes ongoing revelation? And notice that it is addressed to the general congregation, not just the Apostles.

1 Cor. 14:26-33 NIV
What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

People have different understanding of what "revelation" implies.

If you are talking about word of knowledge like what many charismatics believe in, then they would believe it has not ceased, and perhaps they are correct.

I was talking more about scripture revelation. You cannot add to the Bible anymore, those kind of revelation.

Saint Steven · Dec 5, 2021

Guojing said:
People have different understanding of what "revelation" implies.

If you are talking about word of knowledge like what many charismatics believe in, then they would believe it has not ceased, and perhaps they are correct.

I was talking more about scripture revelation. You cannot add to the Bible anymore, those kind of revelation.

Thanks, good to hear. That was what I was hoping you meant.

Does God speak to you? If so, would you consider that to be revelation? (extra-biblical, of course)

Guojing · Dec 5, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Thanks, good to hear. That was what I was hoping you meant.

Does God speak to you? If so, would you consider that to be revelation? (extra-biblical, of course)

There was an incident that happen to me recently when I was cycling in a park, that I will take that as the prompting of the Holy Spirit, but of course, its personal so others may not agree.

When I was about to get back home from this park, I suddenly found out that I have dropped the Mi speaker somewhere in the park. I then embarked on a search for it.

I figured it must have slipped out of my bag when I was opening my top pouch and taking out my phone to take pictures. I traced back to all the various places in the park, even tried to take out my phone and connect to the speaker thru bluetooth, hoping for the slight possibility that it is not turned off yet.

Unfortunately the sites I recall opening the top pouch, I could not see any bluetooth speakers.

As I was giving up the search and was preparing to go home, my brain, as usual automatically start to view all the positive angles about this situation:

1) It costs me only $10+ for the speaker, and the sound volume was not that great, it is a good excuse to get another one.

2) It could have been worse, I could have dropped my wallet, keys, etc. With this lesson, I will make sure I secure everything in my bag properly next time.

3) The fellow who picked up the bluetooth speaker and decided to keep it, hopefully, he will gain utility from using it and thus, I can think of it as "blessing him/her" with the speaker. (I remember this was my resolution when I found out that I dropped some $100 worth of capitalmall vouchers before =))

So just when I reached the entrance of the park to return home, a thought entered my head, which I shall assume its from the Holy Spirit, "You missed out one more possible site, the first area where you took out the phone to take pictures of the park to send to your wife!"

I decided to just turn back to that particular location, based on the photos I have taken then. But I was not expecting anything fruitful to come out of that, and presto, the speaker was lying on the grass there!

I fist pump and thank God, put the speaker back, made sure I triple check all my belongings, before returning home.

bbbbbbb · Dec 5, 2021

Guojing said:
You were replying to a post I made there, and in that post, I specified the Jerusalem Council event in Acts 15

Back to my earlier question for which I do not recall an answer from you.

Is the only actual, relevant portion of the Bible for you only the book of the Acts and some of the epistles? If it includes more than these please tell me what they are and why they are relevant. Thank you.

Guojing · Dec 5, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Back to my earlier question for which I do not recall an answer from you.

Is the only actual, relevant portion of the Bible for you only the book of the Acts and some of the epistles? If it includes more than these please tell me what they are and why they are relevant. Thank you.

This picture sums up my view

All scripture is there FOR our learning.

But the scripture that contains our direct instructions are found in Paul's epistles, Romans to Philemon.

So no, Acts is not part of it, Acts is more of a historical account of the transitional period between Israel's program and the Body of Christ.

RDKirk · Dec 5, 2021

Guojing said:
This picture sums up my view View attachment 309169

All scripture is there FOR our learning.

But the scripture that contains our direct instructions are found in Paul's epistles, Romans to Philemon.

So no, Acts is not part of it, Acts is more of a historical account of the transitional period between Israel's program and the Body of Christ.

The letter to the gentile churches reported in Acts 15 is the first written New Testament scripture.

Guojing · Dec 5, 2021

RDKirk said:
The letter to the gentile churches reported in Acts 15 is the first written New Testament scripture.

Actually, I believe the epistle of James was written even before that, sometime in Acts 8:1, after the 12 tribes were scattered outside of Jerusalem.

bbbbbbb · Dec 5, 2021

Guojing said:
This picture sums up my view View attachment 309169

All scripture is there FOR our learning.

But the scripture that contains our direct instructions are found in Paul's epistles, Romans to Philemon.

So no, Acts is not part of it, Acts is more of a historical account of the transitional period between Israel's program and the Body of Christ.

Thanks. That leaves out the Johannine and Petrine epistles as well as Jude. This reminds me of Thomas Jefferson's Bible. The Jefferson Bible – The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth

DamianWarS · Dec 5, 2021

Guojing said:
Matthew 28:18-20 is a specific command to the 12 apostles of Christ and not to us, the same manner in which anyone of us understand the command to Noah in Genesis 6:14 to build an ark

I feel like we've talked about this before. The ark is a baptism metaphor itself (1 Pe 3:21) and Mat 28 and Gen 6 can be used to support the same goal. Or do you reject this because Paul never states it? The Ark command seems like some sort of strawman argument for you but the issue is you seem to only look at the surface meaning but as Peter points out clearly there's more. Can I infer that from the Matthew 28 text you see no deeper application? Is this the same way you approach the Ark account as well?

Guojing · Dec 5, 2021

DamianWarS said:
I feel like we've talked about this before. The ark is a baptism metaphor itself (1 Pe 3:21) and Mat 28 and Gen 6 can be used to support the same goal. Or do you reject this because Paul never states it? The Ark command seems like some sort of strawman argument for you but the issue is you seem to only look at the surface meaning but as Peter points out clearly there's more. Can I infer that from the Matthew 28 text you see no deeper application? Is this the same way you approach the Ark account as well?

As I said, it all boils down to Matthew 28:20, you have yet to address that point.

What did Jesus teach the 12 in the 4 Gospels? Can we follow ALL those teachings?

My answer is no. How about you?

Guojing · Dec 5, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Thanks. That leaves out the Johannine and Petrine epistles as well as Jude. This reminds me of Thomas Jefferson's Bible. The Jefferson Bible – The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth

The key verse is Galatians 2:7-9 KJV.

Peter, James and John agree to restrict their ministry to the circumcised, in-line with what Matthew 28:18-20 is saying.

So naturally, when you read the letters of James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, you have to bear Galatians 2:7-9 in mind.

bbbbbbb · Dec 5, 2021

Guojing said:
The key verse is Galatians 2:7-9 KJV.

Peter, James and John agree to restrict their ministry to the circumcised, in-line with what Matthew 28:18-20 is saying.

So naturally, when you read the letters of James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, you have to bear Galatians 2:7-9 in mind.

That, without saying, also excludes the epistle to the Hebrews.

Out of curiosity, which Psalms do you sing in your church?

Guojing · Dec 5, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
That, without saying, also excludes the epistle to the Hebrews.

Out of curiosity, which Psalms do you sing in your church?

They sing Psalms 91 for sure, but I am currently attending a Word of Faith church, so that is to be expected.

Its hard to find a church that rightly divides the word of truth. I do understand why though, people are attracted to signs and wonders.

DamianWarS · Dec 5, 2021

Guojing said:
As I said, it all boils down to Matthew 28:20, you have yet to address that point.

What did Jesus teach the 12 in the 4 Gospels? Can we follow ALL those teachings?

My answer is no. How about you?

We have the account of the gospels so we know what was given to the disciples by simply reading the Gospels. The Matthew 28:16-28 text is a closing statement to not just Jesus' ministry but to the book itself. It acts as a benediction that pulls the reader in challenging them to keep and follow all what Christ instructs (which was presented in the gospel of Matthew) From a literary perspective this reaches outside the pages. The last line being strongest saying "surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" which implicitly puts the commandment valid to the same length of time. That last line changes the perspective to outside the immediate context.

I'm interested in the application you understand from the text and since you enjoying bringing it up the application of Noah and the Ark as well. Or do you reject all applications outside the immediate context and audience?

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