Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

misput said:

Guilt of sin without sinning is a new concept to me. Cain and Able died because Adam sinned, not because they sinned? Were the sacrifices they made too God, for their sins or for Adams?

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TedT said:

Yes, Calvinists are backed up against the wall but still will only reframe their blasphemies, loving their religion more than their GOD who is loving, righteous and just so
would never impute guilt, (what I referred to as judgment, the result of guilt, ie death and suffering) without sin.

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Calvin didn't write Romans 5:12-15, don't blame it on him!
Your issue is with Paul, not with Calvin. . .convenient dodge.

Perhaps if all seriously engaged Romans 5:12-15, being true to its words and the reasoning of Paul's argument, in lieu of personally demonstrating the absolute truth of Paul in Romans 9:18-21, it wouldn't be a new concept to so many.

So let's see some serious engaging instead of just personal shock and rejection.
Let's see some consistent exegesis of Romans 5:12-15 in agreement with its context.

Clare73 said:

We are born in the spiritual death; (i.e., no eternal life, which was lost by Adam) of our fallen (unregenerate) nature.
If we die without the rebirth (spiritual resurrection, regeneration) into eternal life, we remain without Christ, and in the spiritual death in which we were born.

Our unregenerate nature comes with ("brings") spiritual death.

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So God imputes Spiritual death as well as physical death even though at birth we have done nothing? Why have you been insisting on physical death with no mention of Spiritual death? Physical death is of little or no consequence, in fact the scripture says physical death is a blessing. Spiritual life or death is primarily what scripture is about and you wonder why I do not agree with you! I think you should answer my question. Why did Cain and Able offer sacrifice to God.

misput said:

So God imputes Spiritual death as well as physical death even though at birth we have done nothing? Why have you been insisting on physical death with no mention of Spiritual death? Physical death is of little or no consequence, in fact the scripture says physical death is a blessing. Spiritual life or death is primarily what scripture is about and you wonder why I do not agree with you! I think you should answer my question. Why did Cain and Able offer sacrifice to God.

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Did I not state that we are born in spiritual death? . . .i.e., without eternal life in our human spirit,
which is why we must be reborn into eternal life, imparted to our human spirit in the rebirth of John 3:3.
Just as I stated we are born with a fallen nature?

Fallen nature and spiritual death-->eternal death are inherited from Adam who lost the original nature and spiritual life for us. The two come together in one package, at birth, and are not imputed after birth.

Righteousness and guilt are imputed, not inherited.
We do not inherit guilt (Ezekiel 18:20). The guilt of Adam' sin is imputed to us, according to Paul in Romans 5:12-15.

The remedy for both our inherited fallen (unregenerate) nature and our spiritual death-->eternal death is the rebirth (regeneration) into a regenerate nature and eternal life.

The remedy for both our imputed guilt and our personal sinning to unrighteousness is faith, whereby the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to us in justification. . .as it was to Abraham (Romans 4:3).

TedT said:

Yes, Calvinists are backed up against the wall but still will only reframe their blasphemies, loving their religion more than their GOD who is loving, righteous and just so would never impute guilt, (what I referred to as judgment, the result of guilt, ie death and suffering) without sin.

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I have never bought into Calvinism although he is one of my favorite commentators.

Clare73 said:

Did I not state that we are born in spiritual death, which is why we must be reborn into eternal life?
Just as we are born with a fallen nature?
They come together in one package, and are remedied with the same remedy--new birth. . .into a regenerate nature and eternal life.

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Are you going to answer my question?

Clare73 said:

Did I not state that we are born in spiritual death? . . .i.e., without eternal life in our human spirit,
which is why we must be reborn into eternal life, imparted to our human spirit in the rebirth of John 3:3.
Just as I stated we are born with a fallen nature?

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Fallen nature and spiritual death are inherited from Adam who lost the original nature and spiritual life for us. The two come together in one package, at birth, and are not imputed after birth, and both being remedied with the same remedy--new birth. . .into a regenerate nature and eternal life.

We do not inherit guilt (Ezekiel 18:20). The guilt of Adam' sin is imputed to us, according to Paul in Romans 5:12-15.

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misput said:

Are you going to answer my question?

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I thought I did answer your question.

Clare73 said:

We are born in the spiritual death; (i.e., no eternal life, which was lost by Adam) of our fallen (unregenerate) nature.
If we die without the rebirth (spiritual resurrection, regeneration) into eternal life, we remain without Christ, and in the spiritual death in which we were born.

Our unregenerate nature comes with ("brings") spiritual death (Ephesians 2:3).
Imputation of Adam's guilt brings physical death (Romans 5:12-15).

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Eph. 2:3 is obviously not about newborns. Are you going to answer my question? The one about Cain and Able.

misput said:

Eph. 2:3 is obviously not about newborns. Are you going to answer my question?

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Obviously, you are not paying attention to what you read, and are relying on me to spoon feed you,
which you then spit up. . .and want to be fed again.
< sigh >

We are by nature objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

We are born with our nature.

misput said:

I have never bought into Calvinism although he is one of my favorite commentators.

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Does his commentary not agree with his theology?

Clare73 said:

Obviously, you are not paying attention to what you read, and are relying on me to spoon feed you,
which you then spit up. . .and want to be fed again.
< sigh >

We are by nature objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

We are born with our nature.

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Yes we are born with a fleshly nature because we are flesh as well as Spirit, the flesh nature always leads us into sin which condemns our Spirit and you know the remedy for that.

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, This is clearly not about infants.

Why do you have such an aversion to other questions that come up in a normal conversation? Please answer my question about Cain and Able.

misput said:

Yes we are born with a fleshly nature because we are flesh as well as Spirit, the flesh nature always leads us into sin which condemns our Spirit and you know the remedy for that.

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, This is clearly not about infants.

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Non responsive to my point regarding our nature, with which we are born, making us objects of God's wrath.

Why do you have such an aversion to other questions that come up in a normal conversation? Please answer my question about Cain and Able.

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Did I not?

For what reason does Scripture state they offered the sacrifices?

Clare73 said:

Does his commentary not agree with his theology?

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I was referring to what is known as the 5 points of Calvinism, especially the point we are discussing.

Clare73 said:

Non responsive to my point regarding our nature, with which we are born, making us objects of God's wrath.
Did I not?

For what reason does Scripture state they offered the sacrifices?

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You tell me.

Clare73 said:

Non responsive to my point regarding our nature, with which we are born, making us objects of God's wrath.
Did I not?

For what reason does Scripture state they offered the sacrifices?

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Infants are not objects of God's wrath.

misput said:

I was referring to what is known as the 5 points of Calvinism, especially
the point we are discussing.

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So what "point" are we discussing?

misput said:

You tell me.

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Why? Can't you look it up?

Let me know and we can go from there.

misput said:

Infants are not objects of God's wrath.

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You simply don't believe that the fallen nature with which we are born as enemies of God by nature, as stated in Ephesians 2:3, is true.

Just like the baby rattlesnakes in my backyard are born as my enemies by nature.

Clare73 said:

You simply don't believe that the fallen nature with which we are born as enemies of God by nature, as stated in Ephesians 2:3, is true.

Just like the baby rattlesnakes in my backyard are born as my enemies by nature.

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Good grief Clare, infant children are not poisonous or comparable to rattlesnakes. Rattlesnakes are not our enemies, they are one of God's creatures but you should give them the respect they deserve and I think you are misinterpreting Eph.2:3 just as you do Rom. 5.

Clare73 said:

Why? Can't you look it up?

Let me know and we can go from there.

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I think Cain and Able were supposed to be making offerings that correlated to the shed blood of animals that God used as a covering for Adam and Eve which correlate to Christ's shed blood on the cross which is a covering for us. Able did but Cain did not.

Clare73 said:

So what "point" are we discussing?

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Original sin.