Is baptism a requirement?

Is baptism a requirement to become a Christian?

  • yes

  • no


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bbbbbbb

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It's what God told Abraham about circumcision, and re-iterated to Moses at passover. And again through Jeremiah and Isaiah.

Do you actually believe that God told Abraham and he should institute the custom of circumcision for male children only, which would be superseded in due time by baptism? Do you think Abraham had a clue about baptism which was not introduced until Moses came along and was finally defined by the church?
 
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Fervent

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Do you actually believe that God told Abraham and he should institute the custom of circumcision for male children only, which would be superseded in due time by baptism? Do you think Abraham had a clue about baptism which was not introduced until Moses came along and was finally defined by the church?
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.

You have stated that baptism replaced circumcision and instead of circumcision, the church has baptism. Is this not correct?

I asked for support for your view and you stated that Abraham and his successors were told by God to do it. On the face, this is correct, but it makes no connection whatsoever between circumcision and baptism.

Do you have any biblical basis for your view or is it merely somebody connecting some dots to make a case for baptizing infant boys only?
 
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Fervent

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You have stated that baptism replaced circumcision and instead of circumcision, the church has baptism. Is this not correct?

I asked for support for your view and you stated that Abraham and his successors were told by God to do it. On the face, this is correct, but it makes no connection whatsoever between circumcision and baptism.

Do you have any biblical basis for your view or is it merely somebody connecting some dots to make a case for baptizing infant boys only?
That's not quite what I said, but rather that the function circumcision served is served through baptism(a sign of the covenant). Abraham and Moses were told that the purpose of circumcision is a sign of the covenant. For the new covenant, the sign of the covenant is baptism. In both cases it is not the physical act that serves the spiritual end, but that the physical act stands to represent what God is doing.
 
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bbbbbbb

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That's not quite what I said, but rather that the function circumcision served is served through baptism(a sign of the covenant). Abraham and Moses were told that the purpose of circumcision is a sign of the covenant. For the new covenant, the sign of the covenant is baptism. In both cases it is not the physical act that serves the spiritual end, but that the physical act stands to represent what God is doing.

Where do you find that anywhere in the Bible?
 
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bbbbbbb

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The most straightforward place is Colossians 2:11-13. Though it's written throughout such as Romans 6 and Heb 7.

Let's start with Colossians 2:11-13. Here is the text -

11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings,

Please note the following:

1. There is no mention of any covenant, either old or new, and, therefore it cannot be understood that Paul is making reference to either covenant.
2. There is no equivalency stated here. If there was Paul would have probably written something like this: "and in Him you were also circumcised . . . . . . therefore, corresponding to that circumcision you have been circumcised spiritually with Him in baptism" but he did not, obviously.
3. Paul states these as being sequential events. First you were circumcised spiritually (performed without hands) then you were buried with him in baptism (an operation performed with hands).
 
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Fervent

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Let's start with Colossians 2:11-13. Here is the text -

11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings,

Please note the following:

1. There is no mention of any covenant, either old or new, and, therefore it cannot be understood that Paul is making reference to either covenant.
2. There is no equivalency stated here. If there was Paul would have probably written something like this: "and in Him you were also circumcised . . . . . . therefore, corresponding to that circumcision you have been circumcised spiritually with Him in baptism" but he did not, obviously.
3. Paul states these as being sequential events. First you were circumcised spiritually (performed without hands) then you were buried with him in baptism (an operation performed with hands).
Sure thing.
 
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Fervent

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You betcha'
While I don't care to argue the case, your third point is flat wrong. It's not a sequence, "having been" indicates that being baptized is a means to something and the most obvious relationship is with "you were also circumcised" meaning that the baptism is the answer the the question "When/how was this accomplished?"
 
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bbbbbbb

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While I don't care to argue the case, your third point is flat wrong. It's not a sequence, "having been" indicates that being baptized is a means to something and the most obvious relationship is with "you were also circumcised" meaning that the baptism is the answer the the question "When/how was this accomplished?"

At least we are in agreement on the first two points.
 
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concretecamper

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Let's see what Justin Martyr says. I would go with his view rather than some self appointed scripture scholar on this forum.

“As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people’s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father’s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show. And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it.

Philip Schaff: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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JLB777

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To become a member of the Christian Church, must you be baptized with water?

What constitutes a proper baptism?

If it is NOT required, what is, and what does baptism do or what is the meaning of it?


There are three distinct and different baptisms in the New Testament, administered by three different baptizers.


Water baptism is useless without believing.

Only people who are saved are baptized n water.

We don’t get baptized to become saved.


Salvation comes by believing the Gospel, however the original word for believe carries the idea of obey.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16






JLB
 
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JLB777

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A man hopes in the Lord and repents but he's not baptized. Is he doomed?


Depends on whether he continues in obedience to the Lord.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


“I know Him” is the biblical phrase for eternal life; See John 17:3






JLB
 
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concretecamper

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Water baptism is useless without believing.

Only people who are saved are baptized n water.

We don’t get baptized to become saved.
Yes, this is a novel idea promulgated in the past 150 years or so.
Salvation comes by believing the Gospel,
Which clearly has Jesus saying that Baptism is needed to have life.
 
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JLB777

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Yes, this is a novel idea promulgated in the past 150 years or so.

Which clearly has Jesus saying that Baptism is needed to have life.


Which Baptism?

There are three.

One is necessary for life.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13


This baptism occurs at (initial) salvation when we are born again and are placed “in Christ”, by the Spirit, in which we are joined to Christ and are one spirit with Him, and thus one spirit with eternal life; The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17







JLB
 
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JLB777

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Paul tells the Ephesians there is one. I'll follow Paul.



Paul teaches us there are three baptisms.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2


Are there three gods or One God?


Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.



  • They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


The three baptisms are:


  1. Baptized into Christ by the Spirit; 1 Cor 12:13

  2. Baptism in water by man. Acts 1:5

  3. Baptism with the Spirit by Jesus Christ. Acts 1:5














JLB
 
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concretecamper

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Paul teaches us there are three baptisms
no, Paul is explicit to the Ephesians, One faith, ONE Baptism.
Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
this is a reference to the Sacrament of Confirmation.

So, you are free to believe this novel inention of men(three baptisms), but I'll stick with Paul amd the Church.
 
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