Baptisms

tturt

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There's "...the doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2).

There's 3 baptisms - 3 immersions

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus (baptism for salvation).
2- By Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism)
3 - By
another believer (water baptism)

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus which reconciles us to God is the baptism for salvation. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection.
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4-9, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13; Acts 2:38; Gal 3:27, II Cor 5:18).

Water and Spirit baptism follows salvation - not in a set order though
2 - By another believer (water baptism) "... fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," All 3 persons of the Godhead endorsed it (Matt 3:13-16). (Matt 3:6,11; 28:18-20; Acts 8:39, 10:47, 22:16; John 3:5).

3 - By Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism) includes when the Holy Spirit comes upon us, He endures us with power for service to Him and keep His Word. (Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; John 1:33, Acts 1:5, 8:14-17, 10:44-48, 11:16; I Cor 12:13, Luk 24:49, Eph 5:18, Acts 4:31; I John 3:24; Eze 36:25-28; John 14:25-27).

They're different yet
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8
 
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LoveofTruth

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There's "...the doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2).

There's 3 baptisms - 3 immersions

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus which reconciles us to God is the baptism for salvation. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection.
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4-9, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13; Acts 2:38; Gal 3:27, II Cor 5:18).

Water and Spirit baptism follows salvation - not in a set order though
2 - By another believer (water baptism) "... fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," All 3 persons of the Godhead endorsed it (Matt 3:13-16). (Matt 3:6,11; 28:18-20; Acts 8:39, 10:47, 22:16; John 3:5).

3 - By Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism) includes when the Holy Spirit comes upon us, He endures us with power for service to Him and keep His Word. (Acts 1:5, 8:14-17, 10:44-48, 11:16; Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; I Cor 12:13, Luk 24:49, Eph 5:18, Acts 4:31; I John 3:24; Eze 36:25-28; John 14:25-27).

They're different yet
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8
Some starting thoughts

1. “One Lord, one faith, one baptism,” Ephesians 4:5

Of the doctrine of baptisms...” Hebrews 6:2

We read clearly in scripture that there is only “ONE” baptism in Ephesians 4:5, and yet that there is more than one baptism spoken of in Hebrews 6:2.
One baptism (singular), and baptisms (plural), would seem at first glance, to be a contradiction, but this is not the case. There are about 7 baptisms in scripture, if you don’t include the diverse washings (baptisms) of Hebrews 9:10, and the Halakhah law of the Jews for Gentile converts. But even though there are many baptisms, there is only one saving baptism. Consider these seven different baptisms, in contrast to the one saving baptism.

1.
The baptism unto Moses. “And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea” 1 Corinthians 10:2

2.
The baptism of John with water unto repentance “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:” Matthew 3:11

3.
Jesus baptism, in the Jordan river, to to fulfill all righteousness and manifest himself to Israel. “Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.” Matthew 3:13 -15. “And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.” John 1:31

4.
The baptism with the Holy Ghost and with fire, “he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:” Matthew 3:11

5.
Baptism into Christ at salvation, the saving
“one” baptism”, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Galatians 3:27 and “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...” 1 Corinthians 12:13 and “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” Romans 6:3,4, and “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:“ 1 Peter 3:21

6.
Baptism unto sufferings,
“But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.” Matthew 20:22

7.

The Baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
“ Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost...” Matthew 28:??? check verse. I will expound on this verse later in this proposition.

Clearly, as shown here, there is more than one baptism, and yet there is only one “saving baptism”, as scripture teaches (1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16). And the saving baptism is not a baptism in water, but being baptized into Christ by the Spirit, or into the body of Christ.
 
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LoveofTruth

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There's "...the doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2).

There's 3 baptisms - 3 immersions

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus which reconciles us to God is the baptism for salvation. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection.
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4-9, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13; Acts 2:38; Gal 3:27, II Cor 5:18).

Water and Spirit baptism follows salvation - not in a set order though
2 - By another believer (water baptism) "... fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," All 3 persons of the Godhead endorsed it (Matt 3:13-16). (Matt 3:6,11; 28:18-20; Acts 8:39, 10:47, 22:16; John 3:5).

3 - By Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism) includes when the Holy Spirit comes upon us, He endures us with power for service to Him and keep His Word. (Acts 1:5, 8:14-17, 10:44-48, 11:16; Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; I Cor 12:13, Luk 24:49, Eph 5:18, Acts 4:31; I John 3:24; Eze 36:25-28; John 14:25-27).

They're different yet
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8
This “saving baptism” is the baptism into the body of Christ through faith in the gospel, and this is a work of the Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13). This is a baptism INTO Christ and putting on Christ, is not going into water and putting on water, “For as many of us as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ “ Galatians 3:27. This baptism is not a mere water baptism, but a far greater spiritual baptism.

Jesus himself did not come to water baptize, and John defined both His ministry and Jesus ministry by saying, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” Matthew 3:11. John said that “He must increase, [Jesus ministry] but I must decrease [Johns ministry with water].” (John 3:30). It is also worth noting that Jesus Himself baptised none in his earthly ministry, (John 4:2)

Jesus confirms that Johns water baptism was to cease in Acts after his resurrection, when he says, “For John truly baptized [past tense] with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” Acts 1:5. Jesus said this at the very beginning of the church, but it was not understood by many. Johns water baptism belonged to the Old Covenant and was similar in form and substance to the many outward rituals and ordinances of the law.

The saving baptism is spoken of a a baptism into the death of Christ and His burial and resurrection, this is a spiritual reality in believers and much more than any outward washing with water. Paul taught this baptism, having a deep revelation of the salvation in Christ “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”Romans 6:3. This baptism is as a spiritual inward circumcision made without hands, that no outward washing could do, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” Colossians 2:11,12.

After the death of Christ, the Jews for a time followed many traditions and old covenant laws, such as circumcision, sacrifices, vows, oaths, and even the Halakhah law or oral tradition, which required the Gentile converts to wash in water and be circumcised. They also still kept following Johns water baptism. This can be seen through the book of Acts. But all the“ diverse washings and carnal ordinances were imposed upon them until the time of reformation” Hebrews 9:10. These diverse washings (baptisms in Greek) do refer to the many washings that the Jews did in the OT, but it also covers any washings of ordinances, that we see them doing in the New testament as well..

God in his mercy and grace, allowed a transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant for the Jews. But when the Gentiles came in Paul had to make this an issue and they were not to be brought under the old types and shadows of the diverse washings all of which were ready to vanish away (Hebrews 8:13) . The early church even thought to circumcise the Gentile converts and bring them under the law again, but Paul and Peter and others rightly withstood this. The misunderstanding of many aspects of the new Covenant also extended to their misunderstanding of water baptism

Scripture teaches that there are many baptisms, “the doctrine of baptisms” Hebrews 6:2, And yet there is “One Lord, one faith, one baptism” Ephesians 4:5. Therefore, this one baptism, must be a unique baptism, the saving baptism into Christ by one Spirit and a putting on of Christ at the new birth, through the grace of God. This one baptism cannot be that of water baptism, because to be baptized in water does not automatically mean being baptized into Christ and they are two are different baptisms. They are not joined together as the one batism.
 
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sandman

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"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8

There is much controversy regarding the phrase → (there are three that testify on the earth: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit) as being God breathed……

The Johannine Comma started out as a marginal note, presumably as a “helps” for understanding…. and then was incorporated into the scripture….

According to biblical scholars ...this is not even questionable ….it absolutely was not in any of the Greek MMS prior to 12th century and no Latin manuscript contains the text prior to the fourth century.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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There's "...the doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2).

There's 3 baptisms - 3 immersions

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus which reconciles us to God is the baptism for salvation. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection.
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4-9, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13; Acts 2:38; Gal 3:27, II Cor 5:18).

Water and Spirit baptism follows salvation - not in a set order though
2 - By another believer (water baptism) "... fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," All 3 persons of the Godhead endorsed it (Matt 3:13-16). (Matt 3:6,11; 28:18-20; Acts 8:39, 10:47, 22:16; John 3:5).

3 - By Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism) includes when the Holy Spirit comes upon us, He endures us with power for service to Him and keep His Word. (Acts 1:5, 8:14-17, 10:44-48, 11:16; Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; I Cor 12:13, Luk 24:49, Eph 5:18, Acts 4:31; I John 3:24; Eze 36:25-28; John 14:25-27).

They're different yet
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8
This is scripture:
Matthew 3
"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit [a]and fire. 12His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

I see three:
One by John the Baptist, by water into repentance.
Two by Jesus Christ of Nazareth, by Holy Spirit for regeneration and by fire condemnation.
Blessings.
 
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tturt

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just checked commentaries on I JOHN 5 and almost all of them covered baptisms. Maybe should have included "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth." I John 5

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism," One Lord is referring to the Godhead shown in Scripture such as "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." (II Cor 13:14) The one baptism is referring to them all.

Loveoftruth, thanks.

It's difficult to get folks to go beyond water baptism. If they realize "saving baptism,'" it would eliminate almost all the discussions.
 
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eleos1954

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There's "...the doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2).

There's 3 baptisms - 3 immersions

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus which reconciles us to God is the baptism for salvation. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection.
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4-9, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13; Acts 2:38; Gal 3:27, II Cor 5:18).

Water and Spirit baptism follows salvation - not in a set order though
2 - By another believer (water baptism) "... fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," All 3 persons of the Godhead endorsed it (Matt 3:13-16). (Matt 3:6,11; 28:18-20; Acts 8:39, 10:47, 22:16; John 3:5).

3 - By Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism) includes when the Holy Spirit comes upon us, He endures us with power for service to Him and keep His Word. (Acts 1:5, 8:14-17, 10:44-48, 11:16; Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; I Cor 12:13, Luk 24:49, Eph 5:18, Acts 4:31; I John 3:24; Eze 36:25-28; John 14:25-27).

They're different yet
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8

the "one" in the above passage is Jesus.

and all of these are in Jesus ... and if you are in Him ... they are given to you as a gifts and one begins walking in new life.

Not all people are water baptized and it's not a requirement to receive the holy spirit.
 
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Albion

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Sacramental baptism is "Baptism." No modifying language (like "water") is needed when referring to it.

The other "baptisms" are baptisms by analogy. They are similar in some respects, but they are only referred to as "baptisms" by comparison to Baptism, the sacrament.
 
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LoveofTruth

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There is much controversy regarding the phrase → (there are three that testify on the earth: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit) as being God breathed……

The Johannine Comma started out as a marginal note, presumably as a “helps” for understanding…. and then was incorporated into the scripture….

According to biblical scholars ...this is not even questionable ….it absolutely was not in any of the Greek MMS prior to 12th century and no Latin manuscript contains the text prior to the fourth century.
Totally disagree , it’s a long talk others have dealt Ruth this in depth but consider


“THE ARGUMENT FROM THE WRITINGS OF ANCIENT CHURCH LEADERS. Following are some quotations that refer to the Johannine Comma from church writings dating to the first eight centuries of the church age:

Tertullian (c. 200 A.D.) -- “The connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Comforter, makes an unity of these three, one with another, which three are one,--not one person; in like manner as it is said, I and my Father are one, to denote the unity of substance, and not the singularity of number” (Against Praxeas, II, Ante-Nicene Fathers). “We find, therefore, that about A.D. 200, not much more than an hundred years after this Epistle was written, Tertullian refers to the verse in question, to prove that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are one in essence; a satisfactory evidence, that this doctrine, though asserted by some in our time, to be a dangerous novelty, was really the acknowledged faith of Christians in those early times” (Robert Jack, Remarks on the Authenticity of 1 John v. 7).

Cyprian of Carthage (c. 250 A.D.) -- “The Lord says ‘I and the Father are one’ and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one’” (De Unitate Ecclesiae, [On The Unity of the Church], The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Church Fathers Down to A.D.325). Here Cyprian quotes from John 10:30 and 1 John 5:7. Nowhere else in Scripture do we find the words “and these three are one.” “It is true that Facundus, a 6th-century African bishop, interpreted Cyprian as referring to the following verse, but, as Scrivener (1883) remarks, it is ‘surely safer and more candid’ to admit that Cyprian read the Johannine comma in his New Testament manuscript ‘than to resort to the explanation of Facundus’” (Edward Hills, p. 210). Leonard Twells adds, “This noble testimony invincibly proves, that the passage now under debate, was in approved copies of the third century” (A Critical Examination of the Late New Text and Version of the New Testament, 1731, II, p. 134).

Athanasius (c. 350 A.D.) quotes 1 John 5:7at least three times in his works (R.E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, Epistles of John, 1982, p. 782). “Among the works of Athanasius which are generally allowed to be genuine, is a Synopsis of this Epistle. In his summary of the fifth chapter, he seems plainly to refer to this verse, when he says, ‘The Apostle here teaches, the unity of the Son with the Father’ [Du Pin, Art. “Athanasius,” London Edition, vol. 8, p. 34]. But it would be difficult to find any place in this chapter where this unity is taught, save in the seventh verse” (Jack, Remarks on the Authenticity of 1 John v. 7).“(A Defense of 1 John 5:7)
 
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sandman

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Totally disagree , it’s a long talk others have dealt Ruth this in depth but consider


“THE ARGUMENT FROM THE WRITINGS OF ANCIENT CHURCH LEADERS. Following are some quotations that refer to the Johannine Comma from church writings dating to the first eight centuries of the church age:

Tertullian (c. 200 A.D.) -- “The connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Comforter, makes an unity of these three, one with another, which three are one,--not one person; in like manner as it is said, I and my Father are one, to denote the unity of substance, and not the singularity of number” (Against Praxeas, II, Ante-Nicene Fathers). “We find, therefore, that about A.D. 200, not much more than an hundred years after this Epistle was written, Tertullian refers to the verse in question, to prove that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are one in essence; a satisfactory evidence, that this doctrine, though asserted by some in our time, to be a dangerous novelty, was really the acknowledged faith of Christians in those early times” (Robert Jack, Remarks on the Authenticity of 1 John v. 7).

Cyprian of Carthage (c. 250 A.D.) -- “The Lord says ‘I and the Father are one’ and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one’” (De Unitate Ecclesiae, [On The Unity of the Church], The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Church Fathers Down to A.D.325). Here Cyprian quotes from John 10:30 and 1 John 5:7. Nowhere else in Scripture do we find the words “and these three are one.” “It is true that Facundus, a 6th-century African bishop, interpreted Cyprian as referring to the following verse, but, as Scrivener (1883) remarks, it is ‘surely safer and more candid’ to admit that Cyprian read the Johannine comma in his New Testament manuscript ‘than to resort to the explanation of Facundus’” (Edward Hills, p. 210). Leonard Twells adds, “This noble testimony invincibly proves, that the passage now under debate, was in approved copies of the third century” (A Critical Examination of the Late New Text and Version of the New Testament, 1731, II, p. 134).

Athanasius (c. 350 A.D.) quotes 1 John 5:7at least three times in his works (R.E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, Epistles of John, 1982, p. 782). “Among the works of Athanasius which are generally allowed to be genuine, is a Synopsis of this Epistle. In his summary of the fifth chapter, he seems plainly to refer to this verse, when he says, ‘The Apostle here teaches, the unity of the Son with the Father’ [Du Pin, Art. “Athanasius,” London Edition, vol. 8, p. 34]. But it would be difficult to find any place in this chapter where this unity is taught, save in the seventh verse” (Jack, Remarks on the Authenticity of 1 John v. 7).“(A Defense of 1 John 5:7)

You are free to believe what you want, for me, truth matters…..If it’s in there, I’m fine with it, but in my research on the origins of the trinity this verse is more than just questionable. As I stated it does not appear in any Greek MMS prior to 12th century.

Tertullian

The verse that Tertullian commented on was John 16:14 In his commentary he writes that the Father, Son, and Paraclete are one (unum), but not one person (unus)…..

Georg Strecker comments cautiously "An initial echo of the Comma Johanneum occurs as early as Tertullian Adv. Pax. 25.1 (CChr 2.1195; written ca. 215). In Tertullian commentary on John 16:14. he writes that this passage cannot be regarded as a certain attestation of the Comma Johanneum."


Cyprian of Carthage


Was fixated on John 10:30 and does not actually quote “of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit’ as part of the text; this is obviously his interpretation of ‘the Spirit, the water, and the blood.’

Since the statement about the Trinity in the Comma is quite clear (“the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit”), and since Cyprian does not quote that part of the text, this in the least does not afford proof that he knew of such wording…. one would expect him to quote the exact wording of the text,


The Comma appears in most Latin manuscripts, (about 90%) which are broadly classified into two groups….The Latin Vulgate & The Old Latin. The Latin Vulgate, translate by Jerome, is the more common Latin translation as it was commissioned by the Catholic church in the late 4th century. The Old Latin is a term used to describe the various Latin translations that existed before the Latin Vulgate. Old Latin translations were made since about the latter half of the 2nd century.

Athanasius

Regardless, Athanasius did have access to the comma and quoted the Comma in Disputatio Contra Arium….that was 200 + years after the Epistle was written….ample time for corruption to take place…of which there was plenty…. especially politically, which was just a cloak for the adversary.

The Comma is absent in all the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament with the exception of four rather recent manuscripts that date from the 13th to 16th centuries. The Comma is lacking in such ancient Oriental versions as the Peshitta, Philoxenian, Coptic, Ethiopic, and Armenian. While the majority of the Latin manuscripts of 1 John do contain the Comma.

You have to ask yourself …Latin was translated from the Greek …and if it’s not in any earlier Greek MMS why is it so prevalent in the Latin?
 
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You are free to believe what you want, for me, truth matters…..If it’s in there, I’m fine with it, but in my research on the origins of the trinity this verse is more than just questionable. As I stated it does not appear in any Greek MMS prior to 12th century.

Tertullian

The verse that Tertullian commented on was John 16:14 In his commentary he writes that the Father, Son, and Paraclete are one (unum), but not one person (unus)…..

Georg Strecker comments cautiously "An initial echo of the Comma Johanneum occurs as early as Tertullian Adv. Pax. 25.1 (CChr 2.1195; written ca. 215). In Tertullian commentary on John 16:14. he writes that this passage cannot be regarded as a certain attestation of the Comma Johanneum."


Cyprian of Carthage


Was fixated on John 10:30 and does not actually quote “of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit’ as part of the text; this is obviously his interpretation of ‘the Spirit, the water, and the blood.’

Since the statement about the Trinity in the Comma is quite clear (“the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit”), and since Cyprian does not quote that part of the text, this in the least does not afford proof that he knew of such wording…. one would expect him to quote the exact wording of the text,


The Comma appears in most Latin manuscripts, (about 90%) which are broadly classified into two groups….The Latin Vulgate & The Old Latin. The Latin Vulgate, translate by Jerome, is the more common Latin translation as it was commissioned by the Catholic church in the late 4th century. The Old Latin is a term used to describe the various Latin translations that existed before the Latin Vulgate. Old Latin translations were made since about the latter half of the 2nd century.

Athanasius

Regardless, Athanasius did have access to the comma and quoted the Comma in Disputatio Contra Arium….that was 200 + years after the Epistle was written….ample time for corruption to take place…of which there was plenty…. especially politically, which was just a cloak for the adversary.

The Comma is absent in all the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament with the exception of four rather recent manuscripts that date from the 13th to 16th centuries. The Comma is lacking in such ancient Oriental versions as the Peshitta, Philoxenian, Coptic, Ethiopic, and Armenian. While the majority of the Latin manuscripts of 1 John do contain the Comma.

You have to ask yourself …Latin was translated from the Greek …and if it’s not in any earlier Greek MMS why is it so prevalent in the Latin?

You are looking at this from a wrong perspective, my friend. Ever heard of Historical Revisionism before?

Historical revisionism - Wikipedia

Do you think man made history or scholars is always correct? How do you really know beyond a shadow of a doubt the history you have is correct? It could all be fake or revised by a person or persons who is biased towards a particular church, or belief. In other words, maybe a particular church made documents that favors their belief and how they want things to be. Is man made history on equal authority with God’s inspired Holy Word?

In other words, I cannot observe the past because I was not there (Historical Science). But what I can do is observe in the here and now those things that are true or not true (Observable Science).

Check out this short animated Christian video (to see where I am coming from):


Okay. So my point here is that I can look at the Observable Science by examining the evidence for God’s Word in the present. I can compare the different translations that are out there and see if one stands above the rest as being the divine and perfect Word of God (or at least the more purest Word of God that we can possibly have). I have no way of knowing history recorded by men is always accurate (Historical Science) and so my trust is in God’s Word (Which is holy and should show marks or clues that it is holy and divine).

Also, you have to consider things from a spiritual perspective. The devil has the most to gain by attacking God’s Word (even subtly). If the enemy can distort the truth of God’s Word in some way, he is going to do that. You also have to think of things in a practical useful way, as well.

If Rick was marooned on an island and he had a King James Bible, his chances of knowing about the Trinity is better (if he never knew about the Trinity) because 1 John 5:7 is the one and only verse in the Bible that point-blank teaches the Trinity. If a believer wants to stand with power and authority upon God’s Word against a bunch of Trinity deniers, he can do so with 1 John 5:7.

There are also only two primary sets of manuscripts used by most English Bibles today.

#1. The Textus Receptus line of manuscripts (KJB).
#2. The Critical Text line of manuscripts (Modern Translations).

The Critical Text comes from Alexandria, Egypt (even according to your so called scholars). If you were to Google the origin of Arianism (i.e. Anti-Trinitarianism), you would see that the answer is… Alexandria, Egypt. Yet, 1 John 5:7 (the only Trinity verse in my Bible) is removed by the very place where Anti-Trinitarianism originated. You may see it as a coincidence or you may find some other colored historical document to favor your way of thinking, but in reality, I cannot write this off as a coincidence. Why? Because there are too many changes for the worse and not for the better when I compare the King James Bible next to Modern Translations (Observable Evidence that I can look at in the here and now).

For is it not odd that the KJB (King James Bible) in Psalms 12:6-7 correctly says His words would be preserved for all generations and yet, this passage is conveniently changed in Modern Translations to say something else? It seems like yet another attack upon God’s Word to me. Just like the Trinity is attacked in Modern Translations. In fact, many doctrines and commands are changed in Modern Translations when you compare it to the King James Bible.

You can check that out here, and here.

Even the devil's name is placed in Modern Translations where they do not belong. You can check that out here.

Again, most of all your Modern Bibles comes from the Critical Text.

This constantly changing Critical Greek Text is under the direct supervision of the Vatican. They come right out and tell you this. They aren't even trying to hide it. Here is a photo of page 45 from right out of the Nestle-Aland 27th edition.

full


Source:
The KJB Only versus the Latin Vulgate Only Argument by: Another King James Bible Believer

But Guess which Bible the Roman Catholic Church does NOT want you to read -

full


Source:
Undeniable Proof the ESV, NIV, NASB, Holman Standard, NET, Jehovah Witness NWT etc. are the new "Vatican Versions" by: Another King James Bible Believer

Note: I am aware this forbidden book of the Catholic church is an older version, and they have updated it. But the point here is that at one time, they considered the KJB to be a forbidden book.

Very interesting.

Side Note:

Oh, and yes, I know about Erasmus, but he was not exactly in agreement with many Catholic doctrines, and he was later rejected by the Catholic church and he died among his Protestant friends.

To learn more about Erasmus, check out this article here.

In any event, whether you agree or disagree, may God bless you.
 
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Dan Perez

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Some starting thoughts

1. “One Lord, one faith, one baptism,” Ephesians 4:5

Of the doctrine of baptisms...” Hebrews 6:2

We read clearly in scripture that there is only “ONE” baptism in Ephesians 4:5, and yet that there is more than one baptism spoken of in Hebrews 6:2.
One baptism (singular), and baptisms (plural), would seem at first glance, to be a contradiction, but this is not the case. There are about 7 baptisms in scripture, if you don’t include the diverse washings (baptisms) of Hebrews 9:10, and the Halakhah law of the Jews for Gentile converts. But even though there are many baptisms, there is only one saving baptism. Consider these seven different baptisms, in contrast to the one saving baptism.

1.
The baptism unto Moses. “And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea” 1 Corinthians 10:2

2.
The baptism of John with water unto repentance “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:” Matthew 3:11

3.
Jesus baptism, in the Jordan river, to to fulfill all righteousness and manifest himself to Israel. “Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.” Matthew 3:13 -15. “And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.” John 1:31

4.
The baptism with the Holy Ghost and with fire, “he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:” Matthew 3:11

5.
Baptism into Christ at salvation, the saving
“one” baptism”, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Galatians 3:27 and “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...” 1 Corinthians 12:13 and “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” Romans 6:3,4, and “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:“ 1 Peter 3:21

6.
Baptism unto sufferings,
“But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.” Matthew 20:22

7.

The Baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
“ Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost...” Matthew 28:??? check verse. I will expound on this verse later in this proposition.

Clearly, as shown here, there is more than one baptism, and yet there is only one “saving baptism”, as scripture teaches (1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16). And the saving baptism is not a baptism in water, but being baptized into Christ by the Spirit, or into the body of Christ.

And in Eph 4:5 where it says ONE BAPTIZO , does ONE , does ONE /HEIS mean ONE ?

When I looked at the Greek text , on Eph 4:5 it means HEIS BAPTISMA and it means only ONE BAPTIZER and this baptisma , only happens to those saved by the GRACE of God , Eph 2:8 and by Rom 10:9 .

In Heb 6:2 it is the Greek word BAPTISMOS and it means and refers to WASHING and CLEANSING happened to the nation of Israel .

So ifyou believe in WATER BAPTISM , how in 1 Cor 10:2 was Israel BAPTIZO/BAPTIZED UNTO Moses , in the Cloud and in the Sea ?

dan p
 
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LoveofTruth

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And in Eph 4:5 where it says ONE BAPTIZO , does ONE , does ONE /HEIS mean ONE ?

When I looked at the Greek text , on Eph 4:5 it means HEIS BAPTISMA and it means only ONE BAPTIZER and this baptisma , only happens to those saved by the GRACE of God , Eph 2:8 and by Rom 10:9 .

In Heb 6:2 it is the Greek word BAPTISMOS and it means and refers to WASHING and CLEANSING happened to the nation of Israel .

So ifyou believe in WATER BAPTISM , how in 1 Cor 10:2 was Israel BAPTIZO/BAPTIZED UNTO Moses , in the Cloud and in the Sea ?

dan p
I don’t believe water is needed today the true saving baptism is into Christ by the Spirit as I see in scripture. And I see Heb 6:2 referring to repentance for all (Jew and Gentiles) and faith for all (Jews as bd Gentiles) and the doctrine of baptisms connected for all to understand not just refering to Jews here.
.
Eph 4:5 is about one baptism not the baptizer (or a person doing water baptism) . The Greek is baptisma and means to immerse into something it does not mean one baptizer (as if it is referring to the one baptizing and not the baptism itself.
 
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Dan Perez

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There's "...the doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2).

There's 3 baptisms - 3 immersions

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus which reconciles us to God is the baptism for salvation. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection.
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4-9, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13; Acts 2:38; Gal 3:27, II Cor 5:18).

Water and Spirit baptism follows salvation - not in a set order though
2 - By another believer (water baptism) "... fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," All 3 persons of the Godhead endorsed it (Matt 3:13-16). (Matt 3:6,11; 28:18-20; Acts 8:39, 10:47, 22:16; John 3:5).

3 - By Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism) includes when the Holy Spirit comes upon us, He endures us with power for service to Him and keep His Word. (Acts 1:5, 8:14-17, 10:44-48, 11:16; Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; I Cor 12:13, Luk 24:49, Eph 5:18, Acts 4:31; I John 3:24; Eze 36:25-28; John 14:25-27).

They're different yet
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8

And have you examined Eph 4:5 , and reads One Lord , One Faith , One Baptism ?

Check the Greek text and all will find that that Greek word is BAPTISMA .

BAPTISMA , meaning is ONE BAPTIZER , who is called the HOLY SPIRIT .

You will find that from Matthew , THROUGH Eph 4:5 that the Greek word BATISMA is used 22 times .

BAPTISMA is used in Rom 6:4 where all saved are PLACED into the Death of Christ .

dan p
 
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ViaCrucis

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If the OP's interpretation of Hebrews 6:2 were accurate, how come we don't find this teaching of "three baptisms" anywhere in the New Testament, or in all of the writings of the early Church.

Yet the Church has always confessed one baptism, even as St. Paul does in his Epistle to the Ephesians. It's even in the Nicene Creed.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LoveofTruth

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If the OP's interpretation of Hebrews 6:2 were accurate, how come we don't find this teaching of "three baptisms" anywhere in the New Testament, or in all of the writings of the early Church.

Yet the Church has always confessed one baptism, even as St. Paul does in his Epistle to the Ephesians. It's even in the Nicene Creed.

-CryptoLutheran
Read my post as well there are many more than 3 baptisms in scripture.
And the one saving baptism (which is not water baptism) is mentioned in scripture.

if we only take what we see the saints doing in Acts for example as the guide then we miss the Jewish reformation and the change of the law and the slow decay of the Old covenant that was ready to vanish away at that time and we would continue to sacrifice animals and go to the temple priest and all the law and customs of the Jews. But that has ceased. Yet we are in the scriptures that the Jewish believers practiced many Old Testament practices abs baptisms and the traditions of the Jews fir many years after Christ death .
This transition and the Jewish , Gentiles issue is not always seen today or in the past. Even though it is clearly there in scripture (Hebrews 9, Acts 15 and 21, etc)
 
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ARBITER01

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The baptisms/immersions that are part of the NT, are two,..

- The Spiritual baptism/immersion that we experience when we are born again. This is where The Holy Spirit applies the blood of Jesus to our spirits and we are renewed into His likeness and sealed with The Holy Spirit. This also places us into the body of Christ.

- Water baptism/immersion, where we are declaring physically what has happened to us Spiritually.

There are no additional ones that we follow in Christianity. There are folks who try to say there is a 3rd one in relation to gifts of The Spirit, but it is a filling, not an immersion. "Be ye filled of The Spirit."
 
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LoveofTruth

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The baptisms/immersions that are part of the NT, are two,..

- The Spiritual baptism/immersion that we experience when we are born again. This is where The Holy Spirit applies the blood of Jesus to our spirits and we are renewed into His likeness and sealed with The Holy Spirit. This also places us into the body of Christ.

- Water baptism/immersion, where we are declaring physically what has happened to us Spiritually.

There are no additional ones that we follow in Christianity. There are folks who try to say there is a 3rd one in relation to gifts of The Spirit, but it is a filling, not an immersion. "Be ye filled of The Spirit."
Hello and God bless,

the water baptism is not just like circumcision of the OT,otherwise it would be exactly the same.

I don’t see what you said anywhere in scripture about water baptism, you said

“Water baptism/immersion, where we are declaring physically what has happened to us Spiritually.“

Jesus said Johns water baptism was past, in Acts 1

For John truly baptized [past tense]with water; but ye shall be [future tense]baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.“(Acts 1:5)

John’s water baptism was part of the Old Testsmdnt types and figures to be done away and these were imposed on the Jews until the time of reformation. But in Acts we see the Jewish Christians were slow at this reformation.We even see Jewish believers still going into the temple and sacrificing snd keeping all the law and customs.

and John said about his water baptism that he did it to manifest Jesus to Israel snd for repentance looking for Christ to come.
 
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