Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,755
9,860
The Keep
✟571,608.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You ask if others read the Bible, but you should be aware of this: "Lift up your eyes to the heavens, And look on the earth beneath. For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, The earth will grow old like a garment, And those who dwell in it will die in like manner; But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness will not be abolished." Isaiah 51:6, KJV. Besides that, I'm sure you're aware of the new Heaven and the new Earth in chapter 21 of the Revelation.

Only God is eternal, not the Cosmos, not the Heavens and certainly not Hell. Anyway, Hell is a pagan myth, as I have pointed out.

If they don't read the Bible then they must have some kind of savant ability to make lots of scripture references. But of course it's really only said as an insult.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
4,401
1,612
43
San jacinto
✟125,905.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (1 Corinthians 15:23) indicates two groups.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Yes, Christ is raised first(as He is already raised) and those who belong to Him(those in Christ) will be raised after. This all ties back to the notion that the Corinthians do not believe in vain, because their belief puts them in Christ. Which is why the distinction/contrast between those "in Adam" and those "in Christ" is important.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
4,401
1,612
43
San jacinto
✟125,905.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You ask if others read the Bible, but you should be aware of this: "Lift up your eyes to the heavens, And look on the earth beneath. For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, The earth will grow old like a garment, And those who dwell in it will die in like manner; But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness will not be abolished." Isaiah 51:6, KJV. Besides that, I'm sure you're aware of the new Heaven and the new Earth in chapter 21 of the Revelation.

Only God is eternal, not the Cosmos, not the Heavens and certainly not Hell. Anyway, Hell is a pagan myth, as I have pointed out.
1)You clearly miss the contextual difference between "the heavens" which refers to what's in the sky, and "heaven" which refers to God's domain.

2)Eternal, in this sense, doesn't require moving backwards. It is a bounded infinity, but an infinity none-the-less.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
1)You clearly miss the contextual difference between "the heavens" which refers to what's in the sky, and "heaven" which refers to God's domain.

2)Eternal, in this sense, doesn't require moving backwards. It is a bounded infinity, but an infinity none-the-less.

It's "heavens" - plural. My understanding is that it includes God's domain.

I don't recall reading "bounded infinity" in the Bible, in any version.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
4,401
1,612
43
San jacinto
✟125,905.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's "heavens" - plural. My understanding is that it includes God's domain.

I don't recall reading "bounded infinity" in the Bible, in any version.
And what do you base that understanding on? If God's domain is to pass away, then where is our citizenship?

As for my use of bounded infinity, it may not be in as far as phrases go but it's clear Biblically that there are things that have a beginning but no end so the concept fits.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And what do you base that understanding on? If God's domain is to pass away, then where is our citizenship?

As for my use of bounded infinity, it may not be in as far as phrases go but it's clear Biblically that there are things that have a beginning but no end so the concept fits.

Like I said, "heavens" is plural, and the "new heavens" implies that the old heavens have passed away. Jesus did say that He will make all things new. Our citizenship as "new us" of course will be in the new Jerusalem, new Earth, new Heaven.

Thanks for the clarification about "beginning but no end."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
4,401
1,612
43
San jacinto
✟125,905.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Like I said, "heavens" is plural, and the "new heavens" implies that the old heavens have passed away. Jesus did say that He will make all things new. Our citizenship as "new us" of course will be in the new Jerusalem, new Earth, new Heaven.

Thanks for the clarification about "beginning but no end."
The plural indicates that it's speaking of what's above our heads. The words translated heaven/heavens have multiple meanings depending on context and can be limited to the sky, can include both, and can refer exclusively to God's domain. In the context you've presented the fact that the command is to look to them indicates that it is meaning the sky and the stars rather than God's domain which is invisible.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I find it logical to believe in a mixture of UR and CI. Instead of > 90% of people annihilated, perhaps only 1%. World population now is almost 8 billion. One percent is almost 80 million of the people living today. This is a very large number and is more than what pure UR aims for, but it may be realistic. A lot of people are really evil. Only God knows :).
One of the things that I (we) are trying to address on this topic is this concept that those in "hell" are deserving of it.

The idea that God created and predestined some/most humans to an eternity of conscious torment with no hope of escape. Including countless billions (throughout history) that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus, let alone had the opportunity to reject him.

And I think we even misunderstand what the Bible means when God tells us not to take revenge. (Romans 12:19) We assume that we will be personally satisfied with the level of punishment our enemies receive, when in reality God is likely planning to show them the same mercy he showed us.

Lots more to say about this. But I'll stop here for now.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
<QUOTE="Hmm">But the "remnant" does not mean a minority who are saved. This is merely your definition of it and Paul shows us in Romans 11 that it is incorrect.
In Romans 11:7. He writes, “What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened” (or blinded). He then asks, “Have they (the non-remnant who were hardened/ blinded) stumbled so as to fall?” And his answer was: “By no means!” (11:11).
He then spoke of their full inclusion: “Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!” (11:12).
He explains the reason for the remnant. God blinded the eyes and hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews as the means by which all of Israel might be saved (Romans 11:25-26)—all of Israel including those who were blinded and hardened (the non-remnant). Though the unbelieving Jews had become in some sense “enemies of God” (11:28), they nonetheless became “disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy” (11:31).
The remnant actually has universalist implications, the exact opposite of what you say: “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all” (11:32). So thanks for bringing the point up
.</QUOTE>
The last, first.
The Greek word translated "may be merciful," vs. 32, is a subjunctive. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility/potentiality. The action may/may not occur. See my previous post, this thread, with quote from online Greek grammar.
My post [#3219]
I cannot understand why people I assume to be rational and reasoning insist on quoting verses out-of-context.
Yes, the verses say exactly what you claim they do but you have deliberately omitted part of of the passage which changes the ultimate meaning.
Romans 11:21-22
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.​
Carefully read these 2 vss. Paul warns the gentiles "take heed lest he also spare not thee." But wait a minute they were already saved why is Paul warning them if their salvation was a done deal? God specified a condition for gentiles to be saved they must "continue in God's goodness." If they don't where does Paul say they will be saved anyway, no matter what? Paul never says that but he does list 22 categories of people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Romans 11:23
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.​
Note also a warning for the Jews they will be grafted in only if they do not remain in unbelief.
Romans 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Mercy is NOT a done deal no matter what. There are requirements.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You ask if others read the Bible, but you should be aware of this: "Lift up your eyes to the heavens, And look on the earth beneath. For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, The earth will grow old like a garment, And those who dwell in it will die in like manner; But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness will not be abolished." Isaiah 51:6, KJV. Besides that, I'm sure you're aware of the new Heaven and the new Earth in chapter 21 of the Revelation.

Only God is eternal, not the Cosmos, not the Heavens and certainly not Hell. Anyway, Hell is a pagan myth, as I have pointed out.

The basic idea of the doctrine of heaven and hell is that after death, believers are sent to heaven and unbelievers are sent to hell. Heaven is a place of eternal happiness and hell is a place of eternal torment. Your ultimate reward or punishment is determined by your belief in the Son of God, Jesus the Christ.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Two questions:

1. Why do you assume that those who disagree with you do not read the Bible? A difference of opinion does not necessarily follow from ignorance.

2. Is that a FACT? Those condemned to die do know the day they will die.

Simply because YOU say that everyone even those in hell today will be saved from hell.

1.
That is NO WHERE whatsover in the Bible hence......"DO YOU actually read the Bible".

2.
That is silly.

NO one know the day of their death. A terminally ill person may be told by their DR. that they will not live another day....Yes that is very possible.

But you or no one else know the day of their death.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The basic idea of the doctrine of heaven and hell is that after death, believers are sent to heaven and unbelievers are sent to hell. Heaven is a place of eternal happiness and hell is a place of eternal torment. Your ultimate reward or punishment is determined by your belief in the Son of God, Jesus the Christ.
If that is true (it's not), then was it just for God to predestine countless billions of souls to eternal torment that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus, let alone had the opportunity to reject him? Would God do that? (nope)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And the Apocrapha is Occultic.
That statement is erroneous, and frankly rather insulting to our Catholic brothers and sisters. (it's part of their Bible) How could you substantiate such a rash accusation?

I hope you have thanked the Catholics for providing you with a Bible. (from which Protestants removed the Apocrypha)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Where in MMXX's posts has he said that it does? Please provide the actual quotes.
What he has been saying is that the scope of the "all" the "in" is referring to is equivalent.
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive".
The scope is "all" people. It's very hard to read it any other way but I admire your determined efforts to do so.
Nonsense. the two occurrences of "in" there is absolutely no way they can be equivalent.
Once again because the "Hell no! faction" continues to ignore it. All mankind that has been or will ever be born are "in Adam" because all mankind are literal descendants of Adam. But all mankind are NOT in Christ unless/until they make a voluntary, conscious choice to be. Romans 3:24, Romans 8:1, 2 Corinthians 3:14, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 2:13, 2 Timothy 2:10, Galatians 2:16, 1 Thessalonians 4:14,

And the Apocrapha is Occultic.
Funny how some groups will quote the Jewish Encyclopedia, as authoritative when something appears to support their heterodox assumptions/presuppositions but soundly condemn it when it contradicts them. Wonder if that has anything to do with cherries?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The basic idea of the doctrine of heaven and hell is that after death, believers are sent to heaven and unbelievers are sent to hell. Heaven is a place of eternal happiness and hell is a place of eternal torment. Your ultimate reward or punishment is determined by your belief in the Son of God, Jesus the Christ.

Yes, that is the view of most Christians, and it was my view at one time, that is, going to heaven or hell after death. As I have stated here before, I was exposed first to ECT, later to annihilationism and lastly to UR. In 2014 I decided to survey the Bible to see which theory fit the data best. My first clue was in Genesis 1:1 where "hell" was not mentioned as being created. I checked the other verses where the Creation was mentioned, and "hell" was always left out. I concluded that the dualistic concept of heaven versus hell, with the souls of men as a contested prize...was false. I realized that it's a hierarchy: God, Cosmos, Earth, Man, etc. I read the Bible and make my own conclusions, using my God-given common sense. I actively try not to read the text through a theological filter.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, that is the view of most Christians, and it was my view at one time, that is, going to heaven or hell after death. As I have stated here before, I was exposed first to ECT, later to annihilationism and lastly to UR. In 2014 I decided to survey the Bible to see which theory fit the data best. My first clue was in Genesis 1:1 where "hell" was not mentioned as being created. I checked the other verses where the Creation was mentioned, and "hell" was always left out. I concluded that the dualistic concept of heaven versus hell, with the souls of men as a contested prize...was false. I realized that it's a hierarchy: God, Cosmos, Earth, Man, etc. I read the Bible and make my own conclusions, using my God-given common sense. I actively try not to read the text through a theological filter.
argumentum ad ignorantiam, argument from ignorance or silence.
When was evil created?
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
argumentum ad ignorantiam, argument from ignorance or silence.
When was evil created?

We are not told in the Scriptures when evil was created. Adam and Eve were presented with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so evil must have already been in existence. BTW, I believe the Bible has meaning in what it says...and in what it does not say. No creation of "hell"...no "hell." Besides, I found it in pagan Norse mythology.
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,025
34
Shropshire
✟186,359.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
One of the things that I (we) are trying to address on this topic is this concept that those in "hell" are deserving of it.

It's a good question. Apart from the biblical and moral argument against ECT, there's also the logic argument that there is nothing that finite persons like us can ever do that could ever warrant an infinite punishment. And whether that's "torment" or "torture" is irrelevant if there's going to be an infinity of it. Absolutely no infinite suffering is acceptable to God and shouldn't be to us either.

And that's not to mention all the other things wrong with the ECT, for instance that an eternal punishment would have no purpose to it and God would never act purposelessly. In fact, there are so many things wrong with it that it's probably easier to ask the question the other way round. What's right about ECT? I can't think of anything but hopefully Team Hell can enlighten us.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We are not told in the Scriptures when evil was created. Adam and Eve were presented with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so evil must have already been in existence. BTW, I believe the Bible has meaning in what it says...and in what it does not say. No creation of "hell"...no "hell." Besides, I found it in pagan Norse mythology.
God created the trees.
Norse mythology is irrelevant. Whatever name it is known by, I have posted a lengthy post numerous times documenting from three historical Jewish sources that among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a place of fiery eternal, punishment which the Jews called both "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom."
....."Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom." are written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as "hades" and "Gehenna." What Jesus taught about "eternal punishment" etc. supported the then existing belief in what we call "hell." Anything that one says which is intended to contradict this is meaningless. And OBTW the Jewish belief in "hades/gehinnom" predated Dante by 14 centuries +/-.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.