Crutches evolve, that doesn't mean they do so independent of the need to fit the individual?

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So here is an example I hope explains why I look at life on Earth, the way that I do. It's not rare for something to evolve, because it's expected to, the real question is "what is enough?"; if you know what is enough, you can begin to focus on honing skills you already have, increasing your overall fitness, above the completely self-serving. There is a good example of this: crutches.

A crutch is anything you can use to prop someone up, when one of their legs is lame. With this focus in mind, you can make good ("stable") crutches or bad ("weak") crutches, and there being a difference, means that you can vary crutches in between these extremes, one way or the other. The important thing to note, is that they replace the strength of the limb, that was already designed to take pressure.

So what happens if you select for a strong "crutch", but you don't think about what it is for, it's "design"? It ceases to succeed at its Evolution? "How could this possibly happen?" you ask? Because the crutch has to have the foundational asset that it can be made to fit, the lame person that needed it! A long crutch will help taller people, a short crutch shorter people - this is the defining characteristic of a population of people whose legs may become lame. It is not at all sensible to say that someone is capable of being more adapted to crutches, "because they have varied lengths of leg". I mean it makes sense to say, "let's adapt crutches to be of varied lengths", but you do not need to believe more varied lengths of legs helps this - that would be a 'redundant evolution' given other ways to cope (by design).

Does this carry over to populations (I know you desperately want to know, "how does a proposed adaptation affect the population?") - the answer is "yes". If populations maintain that a healthy mate has similar lengths of leg, then the "adaptation" of crutches to suit different lengths of leg will become a necessary evolution, not a sufficient evolution. The point about this, is that mates are going to err in favour of more ability to address necessary evolution, than sufficient evolution. Sufficient evolution will make a difference, but not as much as necessary evolution. That's the genius of selection that can account for "agency", where previously is would be assumed to be "compunction" of the undiscerning kind.

This is how Creation deals with Evolution - everything else is taking chances, with the necessary and sufficient (together). You do not need to develop adaptations to crutches that weed out legs that are too short or too long: the crutch can adapt, in place of the design. If the design is preserved, greater overall adaptation is possible, because instinct flourishes more with a species that agrees with Creation, than a species that makes exception for Evolution. Even if a member of a species evolves voluntarily, for the good of the species, it must still make this distinction, between whether it commits to necessary or sufficient evolution for the sake of the species. In principle, at least.

I wonder if you could just explain to me, how you get crutches at all, by chance? And not by design? I mean the point of our vigorous debate between Evolution and Creation, is not to weed Evolution "out", but just to acknowledge that they have differing values, depending on what is expected. Would crutches be viable in terms of Evolution, if they had to stand the test of survival of the fittest, on their own? Probably not? And yet, here we have crutches! Crutches affect survival! You don't need to guess the length of a crutch, for a crutch to do good? On the other hand, if you have a crutch that is adapted for varied lengths, would you choose the customisable crutch over one that is simply and basically designed to fit the niche but not the nuance? Of course!

These choices are not mutually eliminating. The choice between Evolution and Creation is not mutually eliminating.
 

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Hi there,

So here is an example I hope explains why I look at life on Earth, the way that I do. It's not rare for something to evolve, because it's expected to, the real question is "what is enough?"; if you know what is enough, you can begin to focus on honing skills you already have, increasing your overall fitness, above the completely self-serving. There is a good example of this: crutches.

A crutch is anything you can use to prop someone up, when one of their legs is lame. With this focus in mind, you can make good ("stable") crutches or bad ("weak") crutches, and there being a difference, means that you can vary crutches in between these extremes, one way or the other. The important thing to note, is that they replace the strength of the limb, that was already designed to take pressure.

So what happens if you select for a strong "crutch", but you don't think about what it is for, it's "design"? It ceases to succeed at its Evolution? "How could this possibly happen?" you ask? Because the crutch has to have the foundational asset that it can be made to fit, the lame person that needed it! A long crutch will help taller people, a short crutch shorter people - this is the defining characteristic of a population of people whose legs may become lame. It is not at all sensible to say that someone is capable of being more adapted to crutches, "because they have varied lengths of leg". I mean it makes sense to say, "let's adapt crutches to be of varied lengths", but you do not need to believe more varied lengths of legs helps this - that would be a 'redundant evolution' given other ways to cope (by design).

Does this carry over to populations (I know you desperately want to know, "how does a proposed adaptation affect the population?") - the answer is "yes". If populations maintain that a healthy mate has similar lengths of leg, then the "adaptation" of crutches to suit different lengths of leg will become a necessary evolution, not a sufficient evolution. The point about this, is that mates are going to err in favour of more ability to address necessary evolution, than sufficient evolution. Sufficient evolution will make a difference, but not as much as necessary evolution. That's the genius of selection that can account for "agency", where previously is would be assumed to be "compunction" of the undiscerning kind.

This is how Creation deals with Evolution - everything else is taking chances, with the necessary and sufficient (together). You do not need to develop adaptations to crutches that weed out legs that are too short or too long: the crutch can adapt, in place of the design. If the design is preserved, greater overall adaptation is possible, because instinct flourishes more with a species that agrees with Creation, than a species that makes exception for Evolution. Even if a member of a species evolves voluntarily, for the good of the species, it must still make this distinction, between whether it commits to necessary or sufficient evolution for the sake of the species. In principle, at least.

I wonder if you could just explain to me, how you get crutches at all, by chance? And not by design? I mean the point of our vigorous debate between Evolution and Creation, is not to weed Evolution "out", but just to acknowledge that they have differing values, depending on what is expected. Would crutches be viable in terms of Evolution, if they had to stand the test of survival of the fittest, on their own? Probably not? And yet, here we have crutches! Crutches affect survival! You don't need to guess the length of a crutch, for a crutch to do good? On the other hand, if you have a crutch that is adapted for varied lengths, would you choose the customisable crutch over one that is simply and basically designed to fit the niche but not the nuance? Of course!

These choices are not mutually eliminating. The choice between Evolution and Creation is not mutually eliminating.

Gottservant, evolution doesn't happen to individuals and it is not a choice.

Until you understand these basic concepts every single thread you start about the theory of evolution will be false.

When you spread falsehoods you are spreading lies. Stop it.
 
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Gottservant

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Gottservant, evolution doesn't happen to individuals and it is not a choice.

Until you understand these basic concepts every single thread you start about the theory of evolution will be false.

When you spread falsehoods you are spreading lies. Stop it.

Necessary Evolution is different from Sufficient Evolution.

Neither Evolution nor Creation is Mutually Eliminating.

If you wish to address these points, please do so without dragging my reputation into the fray, over a desire to be purist about what I know or do not know about what you want to believe?
 
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Shemjaza

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Necessary Evolution is different from Sufficient Evolution.

Neither Evolution nor Creation is Mutually Eliminating.

If you wish to address these points, please do so without dragging my reputation into the fray, over a desire to be purist about what I know or do not know about what you want to believe?

No.

Necessary Evolution and Sufficient Evolution are nonsense terms that do not have any context in the theory of evolution.

If you want to discuss a topic you need to understand the topic. You do not, so you should not.
 
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Gottservant

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No.

Necessary Evolution and Sufficient Evolution are nonsense terms that do not have any context in the theory of evolution.

If you want to discuss a topic you need to understand the topic. You do not, so you should not.

You think you can prevent me from having an opinion - it is patently absurd.

You have an instinct of your own, but you can't own up to the fact that you were given a choice, before you understood what that instinct was - a choice that you should be extending to others.

Conditions are philosophical concepts, I do not need "science" to address them, neither does it being "science" somehow put it beyond comprehension in response to "thought experiments" that bring to light how you are framing the experiments you conduct in the name of it (the science).

I repeat, instinct has sufficient and necessary conditions; mutual elimination does not apply to Evolution and Creation.

Stop trying to rule out differences of opinion, and you may evolve more than you thought initially possible.
 
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Petros2015

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The important thing to note, is that they replace the strength of the limb, that was already designed to take pressure.

While it heals from an injury presumably with the intention that it is put away later and that the strength of the limb that was already designed to take pressure, resumes taking it...

This is how Creation deals with Evolution - everything else is taking chances, with the necessary and sufficient (together). You do not need to develop adaptations to crutches that weed out legs that are too short or too long: the crutch can adapt, in place of the design.

The crutches can indeed adapt in place of the design and frankly appear to be doing so... but that's not a good thing for the thing that was designed - it leaves it no longer doing what it was designed for

 
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Larniavc

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Hi there,

So here is an example I hope explains why I look at life on Earth, the way that I do. It's not rare for something to evolve, because it's expected to, the real question is "what is enough?"; if you know what is enough, you can begin to focus on honing skills you already have, increasing your overall fitness, above the completely self-serving. There is a good example of this: crutches.

A crutch is anything you can use to prop someone up, when one of their legs is lame. With this focus in mind, you can make good ("stable") crutches or bad ("weak") crutches, and there being a difference, means that you can vary crutches in between these extremes, one way or the other. The important thing to note, is that they replace the strength of the limb, that was already designed to take pressure.

So what happens if you select for a strong "crutch", but you don't think about what it is for, it's "design"? It ceases to succeed at its Evolution? "How could this possibly happen?" you ask? Because the crutch has to have the foundational asset that it can be made to fit, the lame person that needed it! A long crutch will help taller people, a short crutch shorter people - this is the defining characteristic of a population of people whose legs may become lame. It is not at all sensible to say that someone is capable of being more adapted to crutches, "because they have varied lengths of leg". I mean it makes sense to say, "let's adapt crutches to be of varied lengths", but you do not need to believe more varied lengths of legs helps this - that would be a 'redundant evolution' given other ways to cope (by design).

Does this carry over to populations (I know you desperately want to know, "how does a proposed adaptation affect the population?") - the answer is "yes". If populations maintain that a healthy mate has similar lengths of leg, then the "adaptation" of crutches to suit different lengths of leg will become a necessary evolution, not a sufficient evolution. The point about this, is that mates are going to err in favour of more ability to address necessary evolution, than sufficient evolution. Sufficient evolution will make a difference, but not as much as necessary evolution. That's the genius of selection that can account for "agency", where previously is would be assumed to be "compunction" of the undiscerning kind.

This is how Creation deals with Evolution - everything else is taking chances, with the necessary and sufficient (together). You do not need to develop adaptations to crutches that weed out legs that are too short or too long: the crutch can adapt, in place of the design. If the design is preserved, greater overall adaptation is possible, because instinct flourishes more with a species that agrees with Creation, than a species that makes exception for Evolution. Even if a member of a species evolves voluntarily, for the good of the species, it must still make this distinction, between whether it commits to necessary or sufficient evolution for the sake of the species. In principle, at least.

I wonder if you could just explain to me, how you get crutches at all, by chance? And not by design? I mean the point of our vigorous debate between Evolution and Creation, is not to weed Evolution "out", but just to acknowledge that they have differing values, depending on what is expected. Would crutches be viable in terms of Evolution, if they had to stand the test of survival of the fittest, on their own? Probably not? And yet, here we have crutches! Crutches affect survival! You don't need to guess the length of a crutch, for a crutch to do good? On the other hand, if you have a crutch that is adapted for varied lengths, would you choose the customisable crutch over one that is simply and basically designed to fit the niche but not the nuance? Of course!

These choices are not mutually eliminating. The choice between Evolution and Creation is not mutually eliminating.
How can you STILL not understand how things evolve? If you used all the time and effort you take to compose these nonsensical posts and put it into reading a biology text book you would be much better served in your quest to understand evolution.
 
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Frank Robert

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You think you can prevent me from having an opinion - it is patently absurd.
I don't think anyone is saying you can not have an opinion, only that your opinion does not make sense in light of what s known. In other words you are avoiding what is known about evolution.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You think you can prevent me from having an opinion - it is patently absurd.
You're welcome to your opinion about evolution, but you can't make up your own facts about it. It is what it is, not what you seem to think it is, or would like it to be.
 
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eleos1954

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Hi there,

So here is an example I hope explains why I look at life on Earth, the way that I do. It's not rare for something to evolve, because it's expected to, the real question is "what is enough?"; if you know what is enough, you can begin to focus on honing skills you already have, increasing your overall fitness, above the completely self-serving. There is a good example of this: crutches.

A crutch is anything you can use to prop someone up, when one of their legs is lame. With this focus in mind, you can make good ("stable") crutches or bad ("weak") crutches, and there being a difference, means that you can vary crutches in between these extremes, one way or the other. The important thing to note, is that they replace the strength of the limb, that was already designed to take pressure.

So what happens if you select for a strong "crutch", but you don't think about what it is for, it's "design"? It ceases to succeed at its Evolution? "How could this possibly happen?" you ask? Because the crutch has to have the foundational asset that it can be made to fit, the lame person that needed it! A long crutch will help taller people, a short crutch shorter people - this is the defining characteristic of a population of people whose legs may become lame. It is not at all sensible to say that someone is capable of being more adapted to crutches, "because they have varied lengths of leg". I mean it makes sense to say, "let's adapt crutches to be of varied lengths", but you do not need to believe more varied lengths of legs helps this - that would be a 'redundant evolution' given other ways to cope (by design).

Does this carry over to populations (I know you desperately want to know, "how does a proposed adaptation affect the population?") - the answer is "yes". If populations maintain that a healthy mate has similar lengths of leg, then the "adaptation" of crutches to suit different lengths of leg will become a necessary evolution, not a sufficient evolution. The point about this, is that mates are going to err in favour of more ability to address necessary evolution, than sufficient evolution. Sufficient evolution will make a difference, but not as much as necessary evolution. That's the genius of selection that can account for "agency", where previously is would be assumed to be "compunction" of the undiscerning kind.

This is how Creation deals with Evolution - everything else is taking chances, with the necessary and sufficient (together). You do not need to develop adaptations to crutches that weed out legs that are too short or too long: the crutch can adapt, in place of the design. If the design is preserved, greater overall adaptation is possible, because instinct flourishes more with a species that agrees with Creation, than a species that makes exception for Evolution. Even if a member of a species evolves voluntarily, for the good of the species, it must still make this distinction, between whether it commits to necessary or sufficient evolution for the sake of the species. In principle, at least.

I wonder if you could just explain to me, how you get crutches at all, by chance? And not by design? I mean the point of our vigorous debate between Evolution and Creation, is not to weed Evolution "out", but just to acknowledge that they have differing values, depending on what is expected. Would crutches be viable in terms of Evolution, if they had to stand the test of survival of the fittest, on their own? Probably not? And yet, here we have crutches! Crutches affect survival! You don't need to guess the length of a crutch, for a crutch to do good? On the other hand, if you have a crutch that is adapted for varied lengths, would you choose the customisable crutch over one that is simply and basically designed to fit the niche but not the nuance? Of course!

These choices are not mutually eliminating. The choice between Evolution and Creation is not mutually eliminating.

Yes they are mutually eliminating .... animals were not created in His image ... man was. Earth and everything on it was created for mankinds' enjoyment

2 things science and people of faith agree on ..... eternity exists .... science (universe is continuously expanding - eternity) time can not be applied to eternity because eternity has no time (although they do that - in error). That's where the theory of billions + "years" comes from.

So what about time .... time was created for man for a specific purpose(s) .... we were (Adam & Eve) were given dominion over the earth .... not the cosmos (and that dominion - earth - got usurped by satan). So what I am saying is that anything outside of planet earth is eternity and can not be measured. Eternity can not be measured ... it is timeless.

This does not dismiss anything in God's word .... actually clarifies some things. Explains the young earth for one .... yes .... we have a young earth.

Psalm 115:6

Christian Standard Bible
The heavens (cosmos) are the LORD’s, but the earth he has given to the human race.

Earth has time .... the cosmos does not.
 
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Shemjaza

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You think you can prevent me from having an opinion - it is patently absurd.

You have an instinct of your own, but you can't own up to the fact that you were given a choice, before you understood what that instinct was - a choice that you should be extending to others.

Conditions are philosophical concepts, I do not need "science" to address them, neither does it being "science" somehow put it beyond comprehension in response to "thought experiments" that bring to light how you are framing the experiments you conduct in the name of it (the science).

I repeat, instinct has sufficient and necessary conditions; mutual elimination does not apply to Evolution and Creation.

Stop trying to rule out differences of opinion, and you may evolve more than you thought initially possible.

You can have any opinions you desire... but if you have no understanding of a topic then your opinion is irrelevant.

None of your post is consistent with a single aspect of the theory of evolution.

None of your concepts about evolution are clearly defined or consistent with evidence.

You claim to disagree with evolution... but you don't even know what evolution is.
 
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gaara4158

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Hi there,

So here is an example I hope explains why I look at life on Earth, the way that I do. It's not rare for something to evolve, because it's expected to, the real question is "what is enough?"; if you know what is enough, you can begin to focus on honing skills you already have, increasing your overall fitness, above the completely self-serving. There is a good example of this: crutches.

A crutch is anything you can use to prop someone up, when one of their legs is lame. With this focus in mind, you can make good ("stable") crutches or bad ("weak") crutches, and there being a difference, means that you can vary crutches in between these extremes, one way or the other. The important thing to note, is that they replace the strength of the limb, that was already designed to take pressure.

So what happens if you select for a strong "crutch", but you don't think about what it is for, it's "design"? It ceases to succeed at its Evolution? "How could this possibly happen?" you ask? Because the crutch has to have the foundational asset that it can be made to fit, the lame person that needed it! A long crutch will help taller people, a short crutch shorter people - this is the defining characteristic of a population of people whose legs may become lame. It is not at all sensible to say that someone is capable of being more adapted to crutches, "because they have varied lengths of leg". I mean it makes sense to say, "let's adapt crutches to be of varied lengths", but you do not need to believe more varied lengths of legs helps this - that would be a 'redundant evolution' given other ways to cope (by design).

Does this carry over to populations (I know you desperately want to know, "how does a proposed adaptation affect the population?") - the answer is "yes". If populations maintain that a healthy mate has similar lengths of leg, then the "adaptation" of crutches to suit different lengths of leg will become a necessary evolution, not a sufficient evolution. The point about this, is that mates are going to err in favour of more ability to address necessary evolution, than sufficient evolution. Sufficient evolution will make a difference, but not as much as necessary evolution. That's the genius of selection that can account for "agency", where previously is would be assumed to be "compunction" of the undiscerning kind.

This is how Creation deals with Evolution - everything else is taking chances, with the necessary and sufficient (together). You do not need to develop adaptations to crutches that weed out legs that are too short or too long: the crutch can adapt, in place of the design. If the design is preserved, greater overall adaptation is possible, because instinct flourishes more with a species that agrees with Creation, than a species that makes exception for Evolution. Even if a member of a species evolves voluntarily, for the good of the species, it must still make this distinction, between whether it commits to necessary or sufficient evolution for the sake of the species. In principle, at least.

I wonder if you could just explain to me, how you get crutches at all, by chance? And not by design? I mean the point of our vigorous debate between Evolution and Creation, is not to weed Evolution "out", but just to acknowledge that they have differing values, depending on what is expected. Would crutches be viable in terms of Evolution, if they had to stand the test of survival of the fittest, on their own? Probably not? And yet, here we have crutches! Crutches affect survival! You don't need to guess the length of a crutch, for a crutch to do good? On the other hand, if you have a crutch that is adapted for varied lengths, would you choose the customisable crutch over one that is simply and basically designed to fit the niche but not the nuance? Of course!

These choices are not mutually eliminating. The choice between Evolution and Creation is not mutually eliminating.
When it comes to the topic of evolution, you need to write less and read much more.
 
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Gottservant

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Gottservant, evolution doesn't happen to individuals and it is not a choice.

Until you understand these basic concepts every single thread you start about the theory of evolution will be false.

When you spread falsehoods you are spreading lies. Stop it.

That doesn't make sense, how can falsehoods and lies be the same thing?

Agents make choices, when Darwin discovered "Evolution" he was choosing to doubt one adaptation would be enough?

There did not have to be a population of Darwins, before the theory of Evolution came about?
 
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Gottservant

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I don't think anyone is saying you can not have an opinion, only that your opinion does not make sense in light of what s known. In other words you are avoiding what is known about evolution.

No, I am refusing to believe it, if it cannot be taken further (independently of everyone believing the exact same thing - Christians do not do this).

You can tell me you are inspired, that you have found application and that your focus is beginning to have an effect - I am not limiting what you can do with your theory: you are limiting me?

Just because you have a bat and a ball, does not mean everyone plays with them in the same order - you understand how patently ridiculous that is right? That we all start with the theory of Evolution in mind, if we are to succeed?

Again, Creation and Evolution are not mutually eliminating - can you please learn this?
 
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Gottservant

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You can have any opinions you desire... but if you have no understanding of a topic then your opinion is irrelevant.

None of your post is consistent with a single aspect of the theory of evolution.

None of your concepts about evolution are clearly defined or consistent with evidence.

You claim to disagree with evolution... but you don't even know what evolution is.


Crutches adapt, without eliminating what they adapt for - that's all I'm saying.

It is very simple, and appropriate.

Are you going to say relating crutch Evolution to injured people is disingenuous?
 
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Gottservant

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The point is if at the point you are using a crutch, your species adapts to climbing a tree, you do not miss out because you are using a crutch - first you stop using the crutch, then you adapt climbing a tree.

The species having adapted climbing a tree, before you, doesn't prevent you from adapting at a later point; nor do you attempt to adapt climbing a tree, before your use of a crutch is over.

It is to this that we are held to account, not that we evolve per se, but that we adapt what we are able, when we are able to (in principle).

If we expect someone with a crutch to climb a tree, we are "sinning" - we are not extending faith to others, as we would have it extended to us.

In the same vein, if I am being told I am from an ape, and an elephant is more appropriate, the one telling me I should have been from an ape, is "sinning" - we are not extending the freedom we would want ourselves, to others in the same vein.

On the other hand, if I know someone can achieve more by believing they are from an ape, than if they believe in some other appearance, I will be punished for suggesting that they are solely from an ape, but not as much as if I had suggested they are solely from an Elephant, simply because there is some resemblance of function between them. If I was not punished, someone else's faith would be less than it needed to be.

You must grasp this! The one that responds to inspiration more, is capable of "evolving" more. If you are not inspired by your "Evolution" what do you grasp? Nothing? Therefore "Evolution" is not necessary, but sufficient. Whereas Creation is necessary, but not necessarily attractive. And if Creation were attractive, it would be a sin to call the attraction necessarily more attractive.

Which brings us back to the original point: if you are using a crutch, different rules apply, to the standard Evolution. Something that diminishes your attractiveness, is not the end of the point. Creation does not fail to live up to its standard of Creation, because Evolution is there - nor does Evolution ceases to be sufficient, because "attraction" is there.

Defending attraction, either way, now that is something. If we could not do that, then there would be no Evolution or Creation - what we should be doing as God's creatures, is adapting the adaptations our design has already given us, such as instinct can guide and exercise strengthen: if there is anything else, it is to reflect on what these things mean, to us and our God.

Don't be fooled, into thinking you can do without your God - you need Him more!
 
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Larniavc

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You can tell me your are inspired, that you have found application and that your focus is beginning to have an effect - I am not limiting what you can do with your theory: you are limiting me?
When you write things like this it might make sense to you but it makes no sense to the reader. Are you aware of that?
 
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Petros2015

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If the Devil asks how you evolved, you should be ready with an answer: anything else, is sin.

"The same way you did Sir, I would imagine. I just did it in the opposite direction." ;)
 
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