Old Earth Creationism

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I'm not quite sure what I believe about the days of Genesis. I have seen many arguments for the old earth perspective that the six days of the creation week are not meant to be literal 24 hour days, but rather long periods of time.

I do find old earth creationism compelling on the surface, but I find some difficulties in reconciling it with Scripture.

For example, Exodus 20:11 seems to reinforce the young earth view that it actually was six literal days.

I feel like if we were not meant to take the Creation Week as six 24 hour days, then I don't think it would have been reiterated in the 10 Commandments.

What are your thoughts?
 

Freth

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How we know the creation account is literal:
  • The account of creation, as written by Moses, was God-breathed and meticulously worded—for man.
  • God spoke things into existence, which is instantaneous. He could've created all things in one day if He had wanted to. The keeping of time is deliberate—for man (Genesis 1:3, Genesis 1:6, Genesis 1:9, Genesis 1:11, Genesis 1:14, Genesis 1:20, Genesis 1:24, Genesis 1:26).
    • God set forth the concept of a literal 24-hour day from the outset on day one—for man. Genesis 1:5, Mark 13:19
    • God created for six consecutive days—for man. (Genesis 1, Genesis 1:26)
    • The end of each creation day is deliberately recorded—for man. (Genesis 1:4, Genesis 1:10, Genesis 1:12, Genesis 1:18, Genesis 1:21, Genesis 1:25)
    • God rested on the seventh day, blessing and sanctifying it as a memorial of creation (Genesis 2:1-3)—for man (Mark 2:27).
  • If God had intended for the creation days to be eons or some other indeterminate amount of time, He would not have created the concept of the 24-hour day on the first day of creation. God effectively started time—for manbefore man was even created, signifying a literal plan—a clockwork that would continue until the second coming.
  • God has no constraints, but deliberately observed time with purpose and intent, so that we would take notice and come to the understanding that the creation account happened exactly as described; in a literal six days, with one day of rest. In observing the time of man, God set forth an example—for man.
  • To this day, man observes the seven day week that God set forth at creation. Man lives within the constraints that God set on day one. God's design was for man to work for six days of the week and observe the seventh as a holy day of rest and worship, a memorial of creation that venerates our Creator.
 
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Tolworth John

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I'm not quite sure what I believe about the days of Genesis. I have seen many arguments for the old earth perspective that the six days of the creation week are not meant to be literal 24 hour days, but rather long periods of time.

I do find old earth creationism compelling on the surface, but I find some difficulties in reconciling it with Scripture.

For example, Exodus 20:11 seems to reinforce the young earth view that it actually was six literal days.

I feel like if we were not meant to take the Creation Week as six 24 hour days, then I don't think it would have been reiterated in the 10 Commandments.

What are your thoughts?


It all depends on how one reads the bible.
If one reads it and reads out of what is written that is the correct way to understand scripture.
To read the bible and to read into it some previous;y formed idea is the wrong way to red scripyure.

It is impossible to read the bible and come to any understanding of it without seeing that it teaches a six day creation.
 
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royal priest

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I'm not quite sure what I believe about the days of Genesis. I have seen many arguments for the old earth perspective that the six days of the creation week are not meant to be literal 24 hour days, but rather long periods of time.

I do find old earth creationism compelling on the surface, but I find some difficulties in reconciling it with Scripture.

For example, Exodus 20:11 seems to reinforce the young earth view that it actually was six literal days.

I feel like if we were not meant to take the Creation Week as six 24 hour days, then I don't think it would have been reiterated in the 10 Commandments.

What are your thoughts?
The Creator Himself, Jesus, references specific scriptural accounts as having taken place in the literal terms of the sacred text.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
Matthew 19:4-5
And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
 
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miamited

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What are your thoughts?

That I agree. A day is defined as one rotation of a planet upon its axis. If, when the earth was created, it was immediately spinning, which would account for the water remaining on it and the gravitational force that would keep the atmosphere where it was after God divided the waters, then 6 days passed as the earth spun 6 times around on its axis.

God bless,
Ted
 
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9Rock9

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The Creator Himself, Jesus, references specific scriptural accounts as having taken place in the literal terms of the sacred text.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
Matthew 19:4-5
And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?

While I don't disagree, I would argue that Old Earthers still maintain a mostly literal interpretation of Genesis since they believe Adam and Eve were real people, for example, and that many of the events in Genesis actually happened (albeit not in the same way that YEC believes.)

Like, they still think Noah's flood happen, but say it was a local event, or that the death that entered the world due to Adam and Eve's sin was spiritual death, a severed connection with God.
 
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miamited

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Rachel20

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I realize that there are lots of writings concerning the age of the universe -- written by men. God, however, who was the only one there, wrote His own account.

Unfortunately, God isn't posting on this thread to interpret his own account. I don't mean to sound flippant with that - only that your answer doesn't add anything because it basically suggests only God could tell us what he meant. Surely you don't think he's offended by our speculations?
 
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miamited

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Surely you don't think he's offended by our speculations?

Hi @Rachel20

Well, I'm honestly not really sure whether or not God is offended by our speculations. However, I do know that when man puts his hand into the things of God, it generally gets messed up pretty quickly. I know that there are millions of men and women who have lived upon the earth and that there have been all kinds of ideas floated about as to 'what God's word really means'? You have posted one such writer.

My question: Why do you think that Gerald Schroeder knows the truth?

God has said that He did it in six days. He laid out the flow of the six days in the Genesis account of the beginning and then He had it written, apparently by His own finger in stone, if we believe Moses account of the tablets of the law. He then established the week of days and the Sabbath practice on that very account of the six days of creation. Telling us that He did all that in six days and then rested and asks His people to do the same.

Then, we have a genealogical account that begins with Adam and tells us of his son Seth being born when he (Adam) was 120 years old. So, at this point, according to the Scriptures, there were six days, which still today is determined by the rotation of the planet upon its axis, in which God formed, made, constructed, put together all that we find on the earth and in the heavens above. 120 years later, that first man that God actually formed from dirt of the earth, had a son named Seth. So the earth and universe is now 120 years old, according to the simple reading of the text.

Then we have a list of genealogies going to Noah and then to Abraham. Each one listing the age of the father when a particular son was born. Then the age of that son when he fathered a particular child. This means that we can easily add the years from father to son, to father to son, to father to son, and come up with a pretty good approximation of the number of years from Adam to Abraham. Then we can find in various places of the Scriptures the ages of other descendants, such as the patriarchs and we are given an accounting of the time that passed while Israel's children were in Egypt and then out of Egypt in to the promised land.

It all comes to about 6,000 years, and as I say, the Jewish calendar supports that. I know that everything that I know about God came to me through the hands of the Jews. All of the Scriptures, even through the new covenant, were written predominantly by Jews and were preserved and carried forth through the Jewish people. There is literally nothing that I can confidently say that I know about God that didn't come to me through a written account handed down to me through the Jewish people. They were God's people and they were raised up for the very purpose of doing God's will upon the earth.

So, you're welcome to read Mr. Schroeder and follow whoever else you'd like, but for me, the only one that I know was there and has promised me that He cannot lie, is God. God has told me that He spoke the earth into existence and that it was, when it first popped in the empty black space of the universe, covered in water. God has told me that He then separated the water to create an atmosphere upon the earth. God has told me that He then populated the earth with the flora and fauna that we find upon the earth. The truly amazing thing that I find with God's account that pretty much throws a solid wrench into all of the other ideas of 'how' we came to be living on the earth, is that God says He didn't even create all the other heavenly bodies until day four. All those who believe in some billion upon billions of years of creation never seem to be able to work their theories to include that little niggling fact of God's account. That the earth existed first!!!

I believe God! I can fully understand and appreciate that the God I serve created all of this realm for the simple purpose of having a place for man to live where He would then establish a plan of salvation for a time and that eventually He would bring it all to a close pretty much as quickly as He built it all in the first place. We live in a created realm. Not created by billions of years of space dust flying around and coalescing into the planets and stars that we see in the sky today, but within mere moments over the span of six rotations of the planet earth, which according to God's account, was the first body set in the universe.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Rachel20

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The truly amazing thing that I find with God's account that pretty much throws a solid wrench into all of the other ideas of 'how' we came to be living on the earth, is that God says He didn't even create all the other heavenly bodies until day four. All those who believe in some billion upon billions of years of creation never seem to be able to work their theories to include that little niggling fact of God's account. That the earth existed first!!!

That truly is problematic!

Thank you for the time you spent on this response. I'll think about the points you've made. I'm not hard-sold on anything at this point.
 
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miamited

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That truly is problematic!

Thank you for the time you spent on this response. I'll think about the points you've made. I'm not hard-sold on anything at this point.

Hi @Rachel20

Look, I'm not scoring points here, so I will caution you about following my understanding. My encouragement to anyone who wants to know that they know the truth of the Scriptures, is to first, before starting to read, ask for the Holy Spirit to give wisdom and understanding of the things that you are reading. Just as the eunuch said to Phillip, "How can I understand these things lest someone explain it to me." We, born again believers, have the Holy Spirit whose job it is, to give us understanding of the things of God.

However, God's account is pretty clear, and He seems to have deemed it at least important enough that He wrote it as the basis for the week and the Sabbath observance, that He created all that is in the heavens and the earth in six days. Now, many argue that without the sun, you can't have a day. That just simply isn't true and you can prove it for yourself. Google length of a day on Saturn. You'll see that no one shoots an azimuth to the sun and determines when it rises and sets in Saturn's day. The length of a day on Saturn is determined by watching the planet spin and when it gets back to the point where it was first observed, a day has passed and that's what they declare as the length of a Saturn day.

The day on the earth is measured in exactly the same way. God knows that!!!! So when He caused to be written that He created all things in six days, He knew that a day was not determined by the sun or the moon being in some relation to the earth. It is merely the time it takes for the earth to spin one full rotation on its axis. So a day would have passed beginning the moment that the earth suddenly popped into the inky black of the empty universe and had completed its very first full rotation. No sun nor moon need apply.

And God has the power and majesty and wisdom to immediately create a heavenly body, we call planet, and set it spinning in space. God has the power and majesty and wisdom to know, that for the plants and creatures that He fully intended before He even spoke the earth to exist, there would have to be an atmosphere surrounding the planet that would hold all of the necessary elements to sustain life. Oxygen, helium, hydrogen, etc. Clouds to bring rain and so forth. God set the earth in motion and separated the water below from the water above all before the planet had completed its first spin. That's the power and majesty and awe of our God!!!!!

He doesn't need some billions of years for everything to come together by natural causes to be what it is. He just commands and it is! That is why the heavens declare the glory of God. If it all came about by some natural causes as rocks flying around in space that over billions of years coalesced into planets and stars and so forth...then what did God do? He like set it all in motion with space junk, but what we actually see in the heavens isn't really His work at all. It's the work of natural science.

We live in a created realm. It is all created by the power and majesty and wisdom of a God who loves and creates. This realm was created for the very singular purpose of being a place where man could live and when God was finished preparing this mansion for us, He set man upon it. He knew that man would sin and before He even spoke, "Let there be light!" He knew that His Son would have to die for our sin. He knew that He would one day call upon a singular man to begin to build a people who would be beholden to Him to reveal to all of mankind 'who' He is. He also knows that one day He's going to bring it all to an end and He will, according to the Scriptures, once again create a new heaven and a new earth and on that day...Yes on that day!!!, we will all see just how fast God can create an entire realm of existence.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Taodeching

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I'm not quite sure what I believe about the days of Genesis. I have seen many arguments for the old earth perspective that the six days of the creation week are not meant to be literal 24 hour days, but rather long periods of time.

I do find old earth creationism compelling on the surface, but I find some difficulties in reconciling it with Scripture.

For example, Exodus 20:11 seems to reinforce the young earth view that it actually was six literal days.

I feel like if we were not meant to take the Creation Week as six 24 hour days, then I don't think it would have been reiterated in the 10 Commandments.

What are your thoughts?
The problem is looking at Ancient text through a modern lens so we assume things in Ancient text should be literal when the Ancients may have understood things differently. So we need too understand how they understood it, did they take it literally or did they understand it as meaning God is the cause of everything distinguishing from other creation stories around them at the time.
 
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miamited

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Hi again @Rachel20

Let me also take a moment to discuss 'evening and morning'. Just as with those who believe that we can't have a day without the sun, there are those who believe we can't have evening and morning without the sun either. That just simply isn't true. Evening and morning are just God's way of saying a.m and p.m. They are two equal divisions of the length of a day.

Try this, next time you're out at 5:00a.m., see if anyone says to you, "Good morning." How can they say that if the morning is determined by the rising sun. It ain't up yet!!!! Evening and morning are merely two equal divisions of a day, just as minutes and seconds are divisions of an hour and minute. Now, we have incorporated afternoon, which is simply a manmade construct to denote the time shortly after the noon hour. God didn't give us 'afternoon'. He only gave us 'evening' and 'morning'. That isn't to say that afternoon is bad or something. I rather imagine that it came about because people felt uncomfortable in addressing others with 'good evening' when the sun was still shining nice and bright in the sky, but it really has nothing at all to do with God's use of, and it being fully correct to say that the first part of the day was the evening, which is why the Jews started their Sabbath on the evening before what we know as the 'seventh' day. Their Sabbath started with the evening and then carries over into the morning. All proper Jewish days start with the evening.

From chabad.org:
When G‑d created time, He first created night and then day. Therefore, a Jewish calendar date begins with the night beforehand. While a day in the secular calendar begins and ends at midnight, a Jewish day goes from nightfall to nightfall.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Rachel20

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Just as with those who believe that we can't have a day without the sun, there are those who believe we can't have evening and morning without the sun either.

Or plants without the sun. But even the BBT suggests light as the first thing that existed (tho in the form of radiation). Then there are those that speculate the light vs dark portions as being entropy cycles. Obviously a lot to consider ... and I may never decide, though all POVs are appreciated.
 
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miamited

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Or plants without the sun. But even the BBT suggests light as the first thing that existed (tho in the form of radiation). Then there are those that speculate the light vs dark portions as being entropy cycles. Obviously a lot to consider ... and I may never decide, though all POVs are appreciated.

Hi @Rachel20

Have you ever raised plants? I have. I can take any plant that is healthy and mature and put it in a totally dark space for 24 hours and the plant will show no ill effect whatsoever. Consider that the plants only existed upon the earth for one day without sunlight. There was already an atmosphere and since there was water we know that it wasn't below 32°. How is it a plant won't live without sunlight for that short a period of time in that kind of climate? That's actually more of problem for the 'ages' day believer. Yes, for a plant to live for a million or a thousand years from day three to day four, would be problematic.

Really, the only explanation that fits all of the claims of the account of the creation event is that it was 6 literal days. Just as the only explanation for the flood, that fits all of the account details, is that the whole earth was flooded.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Rachel20

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How is it a plant won't live without sunlight for that short a period of time in that kind of climate? That's actually more of problem for the 'ages' day believer. Yes, for a plant to live for a million or a thousand years from day three to day four, would be problematic.

We can grow and raise plants without the sun entirely - using artificial light. So I don't see it as problematic for either theory. All we need to know is there was light before there were plants. But I think my biggest question mark on your theory is holding constants to be ... constant. (sounds funny now that I've said it)
 
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Rachel20

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I'm not clear on what you're saying in that statement.

Maybe you already addressed this - I got sidetracked. But for example, what requires (scripturally) a creation day to be a constant length? I'm still going back to the Schroeder explanation. It doesn't assume this because it takes into account the expanding universe (he "stretches the heavens"):

The five and a half days of Genesis are not of equal duration. Each time the universe doubles in size, the perception of time halves as we project that time back toward the beginning of the universe. The rate of doubling, that is the fractional rate of change, is very rapid at the beginning and decreases with time simply because as the universe gets larger and larger, even though the actual expansion rate is approximately constant, it takes longer and longer for the overall size to double. Because of this, the earliest of the six days have most of the15 billion years sequestered with them. For the duration of each day and the details of how that matches with the measured history of the universe and the earth, see The Science of God.

Edit: you did in the very first response, using the genealogies, but man wasn't made until the 6th day, when the days would have levelled out more closely to what they are now.
 
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miamited

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Hi @Rachel20

what requires (scripturally) a creation day to be a constant length?

Well, I'm merely speaking of the word 'day' in general. A day is not, as many seem to think, some result of the sun. A day is merely defined, today as it has been for centuries, as the time that passes as the earth spins on its axis. Now, were the 'creation' days different in length? Possibly by a few hours or something if the earth, for some unknown reason, would have been spinning slower or faster than it currently spins today. But would they have to be of constant length? Well, knowing that the earth is this huge ball of matter spinning in the cosmos, its ability to change its speed of rotation from one day to the next would be a fairly difficult task, I would think.

Further, what would be the reason for the earth to spin slower or faster, by any meaningful amount, during the creation days than it does today? I certainly can't understand that it would spin millions of years slower. Knowing God as I do, I'm confident that if the days had been particularly different than we experience today, then He would likely have given us an indication of that.

God is wise. He is wiser than you or I could ever even hope to imagine to be. He raised up a people on the face of the earth to do His bidding. Paul mentions the fact that one of the chief reasons that there even were Jews, was that they were entrusted with the very oracles of God. God wants you and I to know Him and He isn't playing games with us. He wants you to know that this realm in which we live is by His design and it is therefore by His design that men might seek His salvation. This entire realm of existence was created by a God who loves you and loves me and wants us to know the truth about 'who' He is and 'who' we are and all that entails. I fully believe that if God wanted us to think of the creation event in different lengths of time than what is considered a standard ordinary day, then He would have used another descriptor.

He wants us to know and understand that we aren't living in some realm that took billions and billions of years to eventually become what it has become. To know that we are living in a realm of His design and His creating. A realm that came about by a miracle of His creative abilities and talents and power and wisdom. A perfect realm in which we were designed to live, but sin ruined all that. When Adam and Eve walked in the garden before sin, the creation was perfect for what it was intended to do. To sustain the life of human creatures that God wanted to love and have a relationship with.

This realm didn't sit around for billions of years all empty of living creatures just waiting to form, through some natural processes, what we see today. No!!! Not at all! This realm was created perfect for what it was intended to be for. It was done in a very, very short period of time and when it was completed by the power and the wisdom of God, He stooped down and scraped up some dirt in His hand and formed it into the likeness of a man and blew into that clump of dirt the breath of life. His breath.

Man doesn't want to believe that because it then means that we're all convicted of sin just as the Scriptures declare. So man looks upon the vastness of space and decides that all that we see must have taken eons to come together as dust and rocks swirled about in the cosmos. He comes up with perfectly good sounding theories that fit, somewhat, with what we see. But as I mentioned, what man comes up with doesn't exactly match up with God's own testimony of why we are all here and how we got here. It's a good sounding argument with lots of proposed theories that seem to make a lot of sense to us. But it denies God's work as He describes it to us in His account of how and why we got to be here.

So, a day is a day. There really isn't any reason to believe, other than we want to deny that God really is as powerful and wise and majestic as He claims to be, to believe that the creation days were somehow different than most of the days that we live through today, as regards their length.

Me, I don't have the slightest problem reading the Scriptures and understanding that God really did all this creating just as He has told us that He did. I don't have any problem understanding and seeing the purpose in His creating all that He has created. What I do have a problem with is that every explanation of man, just as with the flood, denies at least some of the facts we are given from God's account.

I've seen it mentioned on here that the flood is believed by some to have been a 'local' flood. So I ask, name me one place upon the face of the earth where flood waters could have stood that fits the description of the flood account in the Scriptures? In Genesis 8:1-5, we read that the flood waters covered the earth for 150 days. Ok, let's go with this 'local' theory. Where on the earth, knowing that the natural property of water is to seek level, could flood waters have stood for 150 days?

We have floods all the time, certainly not as deep or possibly as widespread as the 'local' flood of Noah's day, but...when we consider that from the moment that the waters reached their peak, supposedly at the end of the 40 days and nights of rain, where would those waters have remained as a flood for 150 days? There isn't any place on the earth where the water isn't just going to bleed away down some stream or river or mountain valley to the 'dry' parts of the earth, or into the ocean.

So the LORD said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—

How is God going to accomplish that task without flooding the entire dry land of the earth?

Yes, the days of creation were just pretty regular days in length and God did flood the entire earth, as His testimony declares.

The five and a half days of Genesis are not of equal duration. Each time the universe doubles in size, the perception of time halves as we project that time back toward the beginning of the universe. The rate of doubling, that is the fractional rate of change, is very rapid at the beginning and decreases with time simply because as the universe gets larger and larger, even though the actual expansion rate is approximately constant, it takes longer and longer for the overall size to double.

All a very fine sounding theory. Does he explain 'why' he believes that every time the universe doubles the perception of time halves? Why would that be? Does an expanding universe really have any effect on time, as it is experienced on one planetary body within the middle, or somewhere within the confines, of that first size of the universe? I mean, is there some theorem that says as the universe expands the rotation of the planetary bodies within the beginning part of the universe will slow down? I haven't read his work, but that right there sounds to me like a good place to go, Hmmmm? I wonder why he thinks that time halves every time the universe doubles. Is there a formula that proves that?

I'd be willing to bet that he's expecting everyone to just 'assume' that little niggling fact is true so that he can show how the days of creation may have been different in length. If he does have some formulary that shows his work, I'd like to see it. How about you? Would you like him to prove his basic premise first, before he moves away and expects you to believe that part so he can build the rest?

God bless,
Ted
 
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