The Liturgist

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I believe here a pauper's funeral tends to be a burial. But I admit I have not looked into it in some time.

Interestingly, I'm aware of at least one not-for-profit funeral company, which uses the money it makes on funerals for those who can afford them, to provide full funerals for people who cannot.

Indeed, I have come across several of these, and I strongly approve of them. Some of them I encountered in the realm of the Eastern Orthodox churches, one was part of another Eastern church, i can’t remember which, one was Roman Catholic, and then there is the burial program of the United Synagogue (mainstream Orthodox Judaism in the UK under the Chief Rabbinate, which was held in recent years by the greatly respected Lord Sachs). Also in the US, some of the Freemasons have a program like this.

(I know of them because they were seeking clergy who would be willing to take a funeral without asking for a fee. I was shocked to think there were any clergy who would refuse to take a funeral without a fee, if the person's circumstances were so straitened).

Indeed; the idea seems completely perverse to me. It strikes me as being a bit like simony. In Judaism and Christianity, burying the dead has always been exalted as a work of mercy. Funerals are very difficult for me to do, but it is a sacred and solemn responsibility and an opportunity to practice unconditional love in extremis demonstrating our faith in the Resurrection, and as the Jews eloquently put it, it is an exceptional work of mercy since those who are at rest cannot in any way repay the kindness. To me, refusing to do a funeral for lack of a fee would constitute almost per se simony (since strictly speaking, simony was understood by the early church as buying, selling or profiteering from the sacred mysteries of the Church; Simon Magus was understood by St. Irenaeus and others to have attempted to purchase ordination from the Apostles for his own pecuniary or other secular benefits, and became what we might call a protoheresiarchon by founding the earliest recorded Christian Gnostic sect, which according to Irenaeus and others, did involve what from our contemporary perspective, a sort of Scientology-style sale of sacraments.

Oh. I tend to think of the BCP (by which, in Australia, we mean the 1662 book) as something which would be strongly avoided by anyone who was seeking a "high church" option.

Indeed, the interesting thing is that starting in 1892, what had been the very low church 1789 American BCP became more and more High Church, to the extent of a clear and unapologetic Anglo Catholicism being in evidence by the time of the 1979 BCP. Indeed, this is why the very low church Reformed Episcopal Church, which broke off from the Protestant Episcopal Church in the late 19th century because of opposition to the growing Anglo Catholic movement, did immediately start publishing its own BCP editions.

I have interestingly encountered low church American Anglicans online who would hypothetically prefer the 1662 BCP to the 1928 BCP, and regard it as more doctrinally authoritative; at the same time they don’t want to join the Reformed Episcopal Church due to its specific Calvinist-Reformed orientation, which is viewed as not being authentically Anglican, despite the REC now being a member of ACNA. Most traditional low church and indeed Anglo Catholic continuing Anglicans however seem very happy with the 1928 American book, because it accommodated both groups in a manner which I think was more dextrous than say, the 1962 Canadian book or the 1928 Deposited Book. In general, all of the 20th century BCP editions with the exception of the Irish BCP editions, and a few other specific cases, are very high church compared to the , whether we are talking about somewhat broad church editions like the 1928 American, 1962 Canadian, or 1984 Welsh editions, or the New Zealand book, or specifically and largely deliberately high church editions like the 1928 Deposited Book, the 1929 Scottish BCP, the 1938 Melanesian BCP, or the 1979 Episcopal book.*

Perhaps one reason I am not keen on the new 2019 ACNA BCP is that it does not continue along the high church trajectory the Episcopal church was following.


* The new replacement the Episcopal church is working on is causing me some distress, because I fear if its implemtation is imposed the way the 1979 BCP was imposed, it could cause another schism, or more membership decline; the Episcopal Church along with the United Methodist church has historically occupied a very important place in American society, and I find it impossible to consider recent tragic events in these beloved denominations with equanimity.
 
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Deegie

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The new replacement the Episcopal church is working on is causing me some distress, because I fear if its implemtation is imposed the way the 1979 BCP was imposed, it could cause another schism, or more membership decline; the Episcopal Church along with the United Methodist church has historically occupied a very important place in American society, and I find it impossible to consider recent tragic events in these beloved denominations with equanimity.

I don't think we will see the 1979 BCP tossed out. At least by the plain reading of resolution A068 at the General Convention of 2018. They called for that book to be "memorialized", which is certainly open to interpretation. But it also calls for "ensuring its continued use", which seems a bit more cut-and-dry. I think what we'll have is more options, not fewer.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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How often are these services seen in your district? These have nearly gone the way of the dodo in the last couple of LCMS districts I've lived in. If it's not a communion service, most churches have Antecommunion rather than Matins. I was talking to the local guy a while back and he told me he hadn't seen Matins as a regular service since leaving Concordia Ft. Wayne.

I loved the Lutheran Hymnal page 32 matins service. Wishing I could smuggle Te Deum into our Sunday matins service.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't think we will see the 1979 BCP tossed out. At least by the plain reading of resolution A068 at the General Convention of 2018. They called for that book to be "memorialized", which is certainly open to interpretation. But it also calls for "ensuring its continued use", which seems a bit more cut-and-dry. I think what we'll have is more options, not fewer.

Well that makes me feel better! I am really glad we have you in this thread to keep us abreast of these developments. :)
 
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The Liturgist

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I loved the Lutheran Hymnal page 32 matins service. Wishing I could smuggle Te Deum into our Sunday matins service.

The AWRV and ROCOR have that, and bi-ritual parishes.
 
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chevyontheriver

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View attachment 307192View attachment 307192

Weird, these two images of the Arian Baptistry in Ravenna, which I am posting in this thread because I have been trying to do a post on the Baptistries in Ravenna in another thread, with glitches, for diagnostic reasons at the request of staff, morph together perfectly
What is that other thread? I have long wondered how Arians would approach baptism and what an Arian theology of baptism might be.
 
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The Liturgist

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I have long wondered how Arians would approach baptism and what an Arian theology of baptism might be.

Your guess would be as good as mine, but I also feel like saying “exactly,” insofar as the idea of a coherently Arian theology of baptism is by itself preposterous. But so is Arianism...
 
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chevyontheriver

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Your guess would be as good as mine, but I also feel like saying “exactly,” insofar as the idea of a coherently Arian theology of baptism is by itself preposterous. But so is Arianism...
Preposterous but darn convincing. Almost took over the whole of the Church once. It came very close and only by the efforts of Antony and Athanasius and the lay people of Alexandria and the Holy Spirit did they not prevail. Arius was a convincing Sola Scriptura preacher, far more than we moderns seem to appreciate.

Years ago now I read 'Early Arianism - A View of Salvation' by Gregg and Groh. Since then I wondered if Arianism might be 'self-coherent' in the way Calvinism is 'self-coherent'. I looked for clues of the Arian sacramental practice ... and found basically nothing. I was asking a question that not enough people had pondered enough to have clues as to how to answer.

FWIW I found one maybe relevant link today. Baptism and Economy in Relation to the Arians

The money quote seems to be that Athanasius said, "For the Arians do not baptize into Father and Son, but into Creator and creature, and into Maker and work. And as a creature is other than the Son, so the Baptism, which is supposed to be given by them, is other than the truth, THOUGHT THEY PRETEND TO NAME THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND SON, because of the words of Scripture. For not he who simply says, ‘O Lord,’ gives Baptism, but he who with the Name has also the right faith." Discourse Two Against the Arians.

So, a little tidbit. And perhaps a clue as to why Catholicism generally reacts very negatively to 'baptisms' in the name of the creator and redeemer and sustainer. I wish someone could write a book of similar importance to Gregg's and Groh's book on Arian salvation. Anyhow, your Ravenna baptistry pictures got me going again on this puzzle.
 
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Shane R

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I don't think we will see the 1979 BCP tossed out. At least by the plain reading of resolution A068 at the General Convention of 2018. They called for that book to be "memorialized", which is certainly open to interpretation. But it also calls for "ensuring its continued use", which seems a bit more cut-and-dry. I think what we'll have is more options, not fewer.
As an aside, do you have a Rite I service on your regular schedule? And how many parishes in your deanery still schedule Rite I?

It had virtually fallen out of use in SE Virginia. Now that I've moved to Southern Ohio it appears from time to time but always as the early service.
 
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The Liturgist

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As an aside, do you have a Rite I service on your regular schedule? And how many parishes in your deanery still schedule Rite I?

It had virtually fallen out of use in SE Virginia. Now that I've moved to Southern Ohio it appears from time to time but always as the early service.

I had heard there were some Episcopal parishes in one region of Virginia that still used Rite I or Rite II Morning Prayer as their main Sunday service.
 
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Deegie

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As an aside, do you have a Rite I service on your regular schedule? And how many parishes in your deanery still schedule Rite I?

It had virtually fallen out of use in SE Virginia. Now that I've moved to Southern Ohio it appears from time to time but always as the early service.

No, we don't have a regular Rite I service. I think the last Rite I Eucharist I did was maybe three years ago for a funeral at the family's request. I don't think I've ever discussed this with my colleagues, but I'm not aware of any churches in the deanery with a regular Rite I service either. I know a few outside the deanery, and it's the same pattern you mentioned: as the early service, typically without music (or with music but no choir).

One practice I've seen (and heartily dislike) is switching to Rite I for Lent, since people find it more penitential. A decade ago, there were definitely churches around me doing that. Today, not so much. (I should add, however, that I have been inserting the Prayer of Humble Access into the Rite II service during Lent the last few years, although in modernized language. One can read the rubrics in such a way that such an insertion is not 100% forbidden, although admittedly it requires some mental gymnastics.)
 
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Shane R

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I had heard there were some Episcopal parishes in one region of Virginia that still used Rite I or Rite II Morning Prayer as their main Sunday service.
Could be. I had parishioners who grew up on that diet. Some of them would prefer to go back to Morning Prayer as the regular service. And the UECNA has managed to catch on in the Commonwealth a bit.
 
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The Liturgist

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One practice I've seen (and heartily dislike) is switching to Rite I for Lent, since people find it more penitential.

Me too. I hate that whole mentality. For my part, if an Episcopalian church offered Rite I except in Lent, and then switched to Rite II with Eucharistic Prayer B, that would be more penitential.

However, I prefer the Eastern approach where the services in Lent are longer, more beautiful and more frequent than at many other times of the year. Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian Church Slavonic, Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox music gets particularly good, and in the Byzantine Rite the more ancient Divine Liturgy of St. Basil appears, along with the hauntingly beautiful Presanctified liturgy, which is textually remarkably like the pre-1955 Mass of the Presanctified used in the Roman Catholic Church on Good Friday; the Orthodox attribute the text to Pope St. Gregory the Great, or St. Gregory the Dialogist as they call him, along with beautiful purple, dark red, dark blue, dark green and black vestments and paraments, mostly dark shades of red such as burgundy or crimson, and purple, and black on weekdays. A major theme of the Great Lent is that its supposed to be a time of happiness, of improving spiritual health through more frequent confession and communion. In Greece, the first day of Lent is called Clean Monday, and it is a national holiday, and it is customary for families to go on picnics and to fly kites.

The only really sad part in the Lenten-Holy Week cycle involves the Twelve Gospels Service, which is like the Tenebrae service and other parts of Matins for Good Friday, or Great and Holy Friday as they call it, which happens in the evening on Maundy Thursday, because the Divine Liturgy that morning is Vesperal, but Good Friday is more uplifting.

Also on the theme of happy fasts, I really love the Western Rite traditions of Guadete Sunday and Laetere Sunday, with the switch from violet to rose colored vestments, and also the vibe of the traditional Lenten fish fry one finds in some American cities, particularly the one in suburban Milwaukee (fish are not on the menu in Lent, but are in Advent, in most of the Eastern churches, although due to a curious loophole one of the major Eastern Orthodox churches allows shellfish, even lobsters, and caviar).

So let us not be gloomy but let visions of sugar plums dance in our heads in the last few days of the Advent fast, as we approach the Feast of the Nativity, that stupendous moment when God the Son, the Divine Logos, put on our humanity, unifying it with His divinity in one hypostasis, and so he by whom all things were made was born of the Virgin Mary, and thus the great mystery as God the Son, omnipotent, uncreated, consubstantial with the Father, became consubstantial with us and accepted the limitations even of being a helpless newborn.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Me too. I hate that whole mentality. For my part, if an Episcopalian church offered Rite I except in Lent, and then switched to Rite II with Eucharistic Prayer B, that would be more penitential.

However, I prefer the Eastern approach where the services in Lent are longer, more beautiful and more frequent than at many other times of the year. Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian Church Slavonic, Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox music gets particularly good, and in the Byzantine Rite the more ancient Divine Liturgy of St. Basil appears, along with the hauntingly beautiful Presanctified liturgy, which is textually remarkably like the pre-1955 Mass of the Presanctified used in the Roman Catholic Church on Good Friday; the Orthodox attribute the text to Pope St. Gregory the Great, or St. Gregory the Dialogist as they call him, along with beautiful purple, dark red, dark blue, dark green and black vestments and paraments, mostly dark shades of red such as burgundy or crimson, and purple, and black on weekdays. A major theme of the Great Lent is that its supposed to be a time of happiness, of improving spiritual health through more frequent confession and communion. In Greece, the first day of Lent is called Clean Monday, and it is a national holiday, and it is customary for families to go on picnics and to fly kites.

The only really sad part in the Lenten-Holy Week cycle involves the Twelve Gospels Service, which is like the Tenebrae service and other parts of Matins for Good Friday, or Great and Holy Friday as they call it, which happens in the evening on Maundy Thursday, because the Divine Liturgy that morning is Vesperal, but Good Friday is more uplifting.

Also on the theme of happy fasts, I really love the Western Rite traditions of Guadete Sunday and Laetere Sunday, with the switch from violet to rose colored vestments, and also the vibe of the traditional Lenten fish fry one finds in some American cities, particularly the one in suburban Milwaukee (fish are not on the menu in Lent, but are in Advent, in most of the Eastern churches, although due to a curious loophole one of the major Eastern Orthodox churches allows shellfish, even lobsters, and caviar).

So let us not be gloomy but let visions of sugar plums dance in our heads in the last few days of the Advent fast, as we approach the Feast of the Nativity, that stupendous moment when God the Son, the Divine Logos, put on our humanity, unifying it with His divinity in one hypostasis, and so he by whom all things were made was born of the Virgin Mary, and thus the great mystery as God the Son, omnipotent, uncreated, consubstantial with the Father, became consubstantial with us and accepted the limitations even of being a helpless newborn.
Due to some whining members of our Congregation, with LSB, we do switch around and use DS 1-4; DS 3 we use for High Festivals and Seasons, fully sung. We have, from time to time succumbed to a DS 5 but they they whine that the service is too long. LOL. You can only please some of the people...
 
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