Sins Not Unto Death

Danthemailman said:

So just how holy must we be and how many good works must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Christ save us? Where do you draw the line in the sand? What is the passing grade? Does God grade on a curve?

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In the Parable of the Talents: We learn that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

So we have to be faithful over a few things at least.

The core of this is by loving God and loving your neighbor (in one’s actions and not by one’s words alone or by a belief alone).

But we know that the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).

So this verse itself proves it’s not a belief alone in Jesus Christ to be saved.

Danthemailman said:

It's belief that "trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation" that saves. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

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I believe this is like looking at one aspect of salvation and drawing the wrong conclusion, my friend.




In fact, I have run into Christians on occasion who actually teach in a way that ignores the first aspect of salvation in being saved by God’s grace and they make it all about Works. This is also an ignoring of certain verses and focusing a laser beam on only the verses they prefer to see (at the expense of others). One must have a balanced perspective on the whole picture of salvation by taking into account the whole counsel of God’s Word. I just looked at every single one of these verses you brought up (in the quote within this post). All of the verses you mention are 100% true. The majority of them are referring to the first aspect of salvation and not the second aspect of salvation.

However, I would like to make a special comment on a few of the verses you mentioned.

Special note on Acts of the Apostles 13:39:

Acts of the Apostles 13:39 says,


The question is who is the audience? It was the Jews. Paul was preaching to the Jews in this verse. For only the Jews were told to keep the Law of Moses (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1-24). So the Jews needed to come to have faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior by faith and or believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. They needed to be saved by the first aspect of salvation (Which is God’s grace or an aspect of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law because a person is being saved by God’s grace and mercy). When the Old Covenant was in effect before the cross: The Law of Moses alone will not save if one is not first saved by God’s grace through faith in the Messiah or God. Faith in God and His mercy was always how a person was initially saved and it is how they are foundationally saved.

For the Jews did not attain the Law of righteousness because they sought it not by faith but by the works of the Law alone (Sort of like those Christian guys I told you about before who make it all about works for salvation without including in being saved by God’s grace initially and foundationally).


For nobody can be saved by Works ALONE (without God’s grace). That is one error or wrong extreme. But the other opposite wrong extreme is turning God’s grace into a license for immorality on some level (Whereby a person makes it all about a Belief ALONE in Jesus - implying that holy living by the Spirit is optional when it comes to entering God’s Kingdom).

Special note on Romans 4:5-6:

Well, I think it is important to quote the verse before it (verse 4) to get the context.


We have to ask the question: Who is the “him” that works (or worketh) in verse 4?

Again, it would be the Jew. For Romans 3:1 in context says,

“What advantage then hath the Jew? …” (Romans 3:1).

The Jews sought after righteousness by the works of the Law and there was little to no grace and it was definitely not grace or mercy by faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior, or seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus, or a belief in the gospel for one to be initially saved. So when Romans 4:5 talks about, “to him that worketh not” (i.e. the person who does not work), it is in reference to believer in Jesus who has initially accepted His grace through faith in Him by the fact that they are not following a system of “Works ALONE” to save themselves but they first have trusted in God’s first aspect of salvation. Verse 5 is contrasted with verse 4 with the Jew who believed in Works ALONE Salvationism (i.e. to him that worketh). Paul is not talking in absolutes here, and neither is he referring to the second aspect of salvation, either. Paul is concerned with how the Jew needs to be initially saved and that is only first by God’s grace without the deeds of the Law (i.e. the 1st aspect of salvation).

Special Note on 1 John 5:13:

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:13).

In this case, it is believing "in the name of the Son of God" that is being discussed. The "name of the Son of God" refers here to His authority as Lord and Savior. He is “deity” who came to earth in the flesh. He has all authority in heaven and on earth. All we do is to be done "in His name" (Matthew 28:18-20; Colossians 3:17).

So, the answer to the question, "Who can know they have eternal life?" would be "those that believe in Jesus' name." This would be those people who trust Him and submit to His authority. It would be those who are "born of God" and "love the Father" and "keep His commandments" (1 John 5:1-3). Those who do so overcome the world by their faith, or belief; "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world - our faith." (1 John 5:4).

This assurance is not given to those who think in their heads that Jesus might be the Son of God; or even those who strongly think that He is but those that actively put their trust in Him by obeying Him as Lord.

It includes keeping His commandments.

For Jesus says, “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46).


Source used for commentary on 1 John 5:13:
1 John 5:13 - You Have Eternal Life

Danthemailman said:

It's belief that "trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation" that saves. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

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Again, these verses are true, but we also know that…

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).


#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).


#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).


#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).


#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Danthemailman said:

Do you believe that a believer must be sinless 100% of the time in order to still be saved? Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

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Well, I am not sure you understood the purpose of this thread, my friend. The fact that I believe in non-death sins or non-mortal sin proves that I don’t believe a Christian has to be perfect in order to be saved. But a Christian has to at some point in their life overcome mortal sin (or sins that the Bible attaches with warnings of condemnation or hellfire). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). One cannot achieve holy living if they justify even just one sin.

As for 1 John 1:8-10.

Well, 1 John 1:8 is a common verse used by Christians to justify sin.

However, does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer:

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,


In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Danthemailman said:

False and this was already refuted in post #63.

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I don’t believe so, my friend.

Jude 1 says those who turned God’s grace into lasciviousness:



Faithful believers are admonished as a contrast:



But let’s say for the sake of argument that these are not believers who have fallen away. Jude 1 stands as a testimony against the sin and still be saved type belief today because Jude 1:4 is all about not turning God’s grace into a license for immorality. So Jude 1 tells us what the believer should not be like. Believers are not saved without living holy by the Spirit.

Danthemailman said:

Those whose faith is permanently overthrown demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vainand worthless (vs. 14).

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No, verses 1, and the first part of verse 2 is merely saying that they need to continue to believe in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2).

Notice, it says the word IF in there.
It says they are saved if they keep in memory what Paul preached unto them you-all (ye) are saved.

But the words in purple (second half of verse 2) is referring to a new thought that is not connected to the words in blue. It is saying unless they believed in vain. It’s not saying they had believed in vain and believing in vain is not referring to the previous thought of the words written in blue that I highlighted. That’s another thought.

You said:

The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrate that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe).

Just as we read in 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

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Also, 2 Timothy 2:17-18 says that Hymenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (with their denial of the bodily resurrection). You cannot overthrow the faith if somebody is faithless. Faith can only be overthrown if they already have faith.

You said:

This does not mean that genuine born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again.

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There is no mention of how Paul refers to how the faith here is a nominal faith only. That is your addition to God’s Word that is not there.

You said:

Does the Lord say that His saints are preserved forever or only temporarily in Psalm 37:28? Are genuine believers sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession or only temporarily in Ephesians 1:13-14? What was the reason they went out from us in 1 John 2:19? What would have demonstrated they were of us?

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Psalms 37:28 refers to the saints (i.e. those believers who have done good in this life and been faithful). We know by the context that they do good vs. those who are not saints who do evil. So these are not a bunch of sin and still be saved type believers here. Those who do good will be preserved forever. So it’s conditional on us abiding in the faith and doing what is good in the faith, and not evil.

Danthemailman said:

Are genuine believers sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession or only temporarily in Ephesians 1:13-14? What was the reason they went out from us in 1 John 2:19? What would have demonstrated they were of us?

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As for Ephesians 1:13-14:

Many Christians love to bring up the seal of God as proof of eternal security.

However…

What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

In fact, what is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalms 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).


Source:
Sealed UNTO the day of redemption, but a seal can be broken Eph. 4:30

Danthemailman said:

Are genuine believers sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession or only temporarily in Ephesians 1:13-14?

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As for the purchased possession:

“who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Ephesians 1:13).

But this is only conditioned upon whether or not we keep the faith.
For Judas was said to be sheep, and yet we know he was not saved in the end.
He fell away from the faith, and we know God does not choose evil people to be His chosen disciples to represent Him and to spread His Word. Judas had later fallen away from the faith.

Hebrews 3 talks about how one can harden their hearts by sin, and depart from the living God.
One cannot depart from the living God unless they are already with God.
You cannot depart from Pittsburgh airport unless you are in Pittsburgh.

Danthemailman said:

What was the reason they went out from us in 1 John 2:19? What would have demonstrated they were of us?

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1 John 2:19 is describing the gnostic believers who denied sin’s existence, and who denied the deity of Jesus Christ, and it is not referring to all believers.

eleos1954 said:

If one believes in Jesus will not they love their brother as them self? Do we sometimes fail on this point?

Was not .... is not the love of God (christ final sacrifice) not sufficient to cover all sin for all time? Yes it certainly is. Does that mean it's ok to keep sinning? NO .... but if we do sin we have the assurance that we have an advocate.

Either He paid everyone's debt (all for all time) ... or He didn't.

Does God know what sins will be committed in the future? Yes, knows the beginning to the end. God knows the future .... we do not. So can/does God forgive those things He knows will happen? Yes

1 John 2

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

the lost? Yeah He died for them as well and salvation was (earthly past) and is available to them by faith, always has been .... some chose/choose otherwise .... this includes those who are yet to be born on earth (earthly future) (and who will sin). Salvation is available as a gift through faith (always has been and will always be) some did not (earthly past) and will not (in the earthly future) receive the gift that is in Christ.

God is not constrained by time (we are) .... He lives in the now. There is no time in eternity ... no past, no future .... there is now ... eternity is timeless.

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Jesus no doubt died for all men’s sins, and His atonement is sufficient, but not everyone is forgiven. In order for a person to have the atonement applied to their life is if they exhibit true faith. Faith is more than just a belief alone in Jesus Christ as one’s Savior. Faith also includes living holy by allowing the working of God to move within your life. This is how the atonement is applied. The atonement is only applied if we meet the right conditions of faith in this life. One can forfeit the atonement if one no longer has faith anymore or if one does not remain faithful to the Lord. Yes, faith starts off as a belief or trust in God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but faith continues with the Sanctification Process, as well. If one does not continue to abide in the Spirit and do good, and they do evil or sin instead, then they are no longer abiding in the faith and thus… the atonement of Christ forgiving us of our sins is no longer applied. For without faith it is impossible to please God.

For faith is the key difference between those who are forgiven by Christ and those who are not forgiven.

Danthemailman said:

So gnostics deny sin's existence (1 John 1:8-10) and deny the deity of Jesus Christ (John 1:1, 8:24) and you still call them believers? That's not what a genuine believer believes which explains why in 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; (DID YOU SEE THAT?) for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; (DID YOU SEE THAT?) but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

HOW CAN YOU MISS THIS?

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in various churches and on various Christian forum sites. You don't seem to get this. You just slap the label "believer" on anyone who "claims" to be a believer.

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Now you are being unreasonable. Do you honestly believe I think everyone claiming to be a believer is genuine? That’s just being silly, my friend. My point is that I brought up 2 Timothy 2:17-18 and you just slapped the label on them as being nominal when there was no indication in the context that such a thing is so. In fact, I have shown by Scripture that Hymenaeus and Philetus had overthrown the faith of some. That’s what the text plainly says. The context does not say that the faith of those whose faith was overthrown had a nominal faith and they were not genuine believers. That is something you are adding into the text that is not there. You point to 1 John 2 as proof. But that’s not the context of 2 Timothy 2:17-18. Yeah. I know there are false believers. Unless one is a liberal Christian or a Universalist, most Christians agree that there are false believers. But again, there is no indication in 2 Timothy 2:17-18 had been overthrown by having a nominal faith. The Bible does not teach a person to have a nominal faith. So the faith that is being overthrown is obviously referring to the real faith and not a nominal one. But of course you do not like 2 Timothy 2:17-18 and so you have to do backflip twists with the text to make it work with your belief. You also seem to falsely think that 1 John 2 speaks of all believers in that the OSAS believers will always endure and the false ones will not endure and thus this proves Eternal Security. But nothing is said of this in 1 John 2. It just so happens to be one particular instance of a group who had a gnostic belief from the beginning. You cannot apply that rule to every situation about when the Bible talks about a genuine believer falling away.

Danthemailman said:

FALSE! This equates to "type 2 works salvation" and remains your achilles heel.

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“Type 2 Works Salvation” is just a man invented label that goes against the truth of God’s Holy Word. For the Bible actually tells us in many places to be fruitful and to live holy by God’s Spirit as a part of God’s plan of salvation (After we are saved by God’s grace). I provided many verses to prove this and yet you are not really explaining how they work in your view of Soteriology.

Works-salvationists often confuse justification (one time event) with ongoing sanctification (process) and the end result is "salvation by works/works righteousness."

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Anti-Works Salvationists often over simplify salvation by focusing a laser beam on one set of verses on the 1st aspect of salvation (God’s grace) while ignoring other verses that clearly talk about Sanctification as a part of God’s plan of salvation. One prime example of a piece of Scripture you must ignore is 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

You said:

I could continue to refute your arguments until I'm blue in the face, but until you get this resolved above I will just end up wasting my time.

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Right because you cannot re-write the Bible to your own liking. It’s not going to work with me. The Bible is my authority and not candy coated Christianity that justifies a sin and still be saved type belief with Belief Alone-ism. God is good, and His people are good, too. You don’t seem to get that because you are arguing for Belief Alone-ism (Which can lead people to turn God’s grace into a doctrine for immorality - whether you want that to happen or not).

For if you tell a child about how they are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus, and nothing else, and you never see that child again, that child could grow up to be the next George Sodini or Kenneth Nally. Check out this article here to learn more about them (if you are unaware of them).

O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

You said:

To start off with, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Perfect Harmony*

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

James chapter 2 is most likely the favorite chapter in the entire Bible for works-salvationists who cry out, "faith without works is dead" in order to try and prove that man is saved by faith and works, yet James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple! Too simple!

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You seem to be arguing my case with the words of James in how a true genuine faith is evidence by good deeds but yet you don’t seem to believe James. You said works do not save. Yet, you appear to contradict yourself by saying that if there is no works, then the faith is no longer genuine. Thus… meaning, they are not saved. So you need to have works to show a true saving faith according to you. So this means that works play a part in the salvation equation even if you don’t believe the works themselves don’t save itself, you have to believe that works play a part in salvation in some way if you claim that works must be evidence of showing a true faith (which does save). For if no works are present, they are not saved (i.e. they don’t have a genuine faith). So either way you slice it, works play a part in God’s plan of salvation if you believe James and by what you said here. The only true way to be consistent in your belief that says that “works do not save” is if you claim like other OSAS believers (and or sin and still be saved proponents) who think that James was not written for us Christians today or what he had written was an epistle of straw as Luther claimed.

But Luther also said,

“…No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day"

('Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521.).

Martin Luther is the founder of Protestantism.

Danthemailman said:

We are saved through belief in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. Period. (Romans 3:24-28)

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Then one is promoting laziness and anti-works and sinfulness if they do not believe works are truly necessary as a part of entering God’s Kingdom. For if it is a “Belief Alone in Jesus that saves and nothing else” then one can live like the devil and be saved. But of course you try to rationalize otherwise.

You said:

In regards to this parable, the talents represent monetary value and are distributed according to ability (vs. 15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it.

Also, the fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "slothful" and an "unprofitable servant" (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degrees. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results/fruit at all are not truly converted.

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But again… this is proving my case in the necessity of works. On the one hand: You make it appear like you believe that faith does not need to have works to show it is genuine because you said we are saved by a belief alone in Jesus. However, on the other hand: You make it appear like believe that a genuine faith that saves will have good works to show it is true.

I believe works shows a genuine faith, too. But I don’t think you really believe that because you said before that salvation is by a belief alone in Jesus Christ and not works. So you are setting up a contradictory statement or dilemma to your Belief Alone in Jesus statement by your words here in Matthew 25. Again, the only way Belief Alone in Jesus + Nothing works is if you believe the words of Jesus in this parable do not apply to Christians today (Like other OSAS believers). But you know that there is no indication in Scripture that this is so. But yet, you still cling to the mantra of Belief Alone in Jesus + nothing = salvation. Yet, you seem to be arguing otherwise when you comment on Matthew 25.

You said:

Which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. Titus 1:15 - To the pure all things are pure, (IN CONTRAST WITH) but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They 'profess' (key word) to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. These defiled unbelievers were never saved.

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For the point I am trying to make here: It does not matter if Titus 1:16 is describing unbelievers who were never saved or not. The point here is that Titus 1:16 is giving us a way to identify these unbelievers by showing us characteristics that no genuine Christian should ever have. So we cannot be like these vain deceivers who profess that they know God but they deny Him by being reprobate unto every good work. In other words, we cannot be reprobate unto every good work otherwise we can deny God by doing so (and be like vain deceivers). This is why works are necessary. To deny God means one is not saved. The opposite would hold true that if are not reprobate unto every good work then we are not like vain deceivers by denying God because we would be keeping His commandments (thereby showing we have a real assurance that we know the Lord Jesus - See: 1 John 2:3-4). God is not going to force you to do good works. You have to cooperate with God in the good work He wants to do through you. So if this is the case, then we have to actively do good works as apart of the faith that saves. So yes. Works play a part in the salvation equation but you simply have not connected the dots yet. Unless you are willing to promote anti-works and sinfulness while under God’s grace, I cannot see how you truly believe works do not play a part in the salvation equation.

You said:

It's not about we must produce fruit in order to be saved, but that we will produce fruit if we truly are saved. Only genuine believers truly serve and abide in Jesus Christ. To "abide" means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

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I believe that we must abide in God to be saved. Some OSAS Proponents or Non-OSAS sin and still be saved believers hold to the view that they only lose fellowship with God if they sin and they think 1 John 1:9 is only dealing with a loss of fellowship with God if they do not confess of their sins; Yet, they magically think they are still saved by having a belief alone in Jesus even while they abide in sin (without confess of it). But that is not what the Bible teaches (of course).

Danthemailman said:

Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence that one has received salvation and is born again, but is not the basis or means by which we obtain or maintain salvation. We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) *Also see (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) etc..

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Anyone can quote the Bible out of context to lead them to a wrong conclusion.
Below, I created a short list of verses proving that works of faith is a part of God’s plan of salvation after we are saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

“Works of Faith” (God doing the good work through the believer in the Sanctification Process) is a part of God’s plan of salvation (After we saved by God’s grace):

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
   
   
2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
   
   
3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
   
   
6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
   
   
8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
   
   
10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
    
    
14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
    
    
15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

You said:

Again, we are not saved by works, but FOR good works. It's not about we must do good works in order to become saved but that we will do good works if we truly are saved. A tree is known by it's fruit. Hence, good tree, good fruit.

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Nowhere did I say that you have to do works to become saved. I believe we are initially saved by God’s grace without the deeds of the Law. That is the first aspect of salvation. To understand a more fuller picture of what I believe in regards to Soteriology, check out this CF thread here:

The Four Aspects of Salvation.

You said:

Those who have saving belief in Jesus have received the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) and have received the love of God within their hearts (Romans 5:5) and are new creations in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17) and have become partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) Living like the devil is not the desire of those who are truly born of God. (1 John 3:7-10)

So it's either flawless or lawless according to you? Sinless perfection or live like the devil? No middle ground?

Believers serve Jesus Christ. Unbelievers serve sin. This doesn't mean that believers are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time 'in of themselves.'

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So God forces believers to be a certain way? Granted, I believe God does give us a new heart with new desires. I know that. I had received a love, joy, and peace that I never knew before when I accepted Jesus and His grace back in 1992. But I don’t believe our free will is taken away. God does not make us His slaves after we made a one time decision for Christ. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). We have to daily draw near to God, and He will draw near to us.

Scripture even tells us to keep ourselves in the love of God.
Why would we (as believers) be told this if it was just an automatic thing?

You said:

You are all about "type 2 works salvation." Don't fall into the trap of trusting in yourself that your "in of yourself" are righteous and view others with contempt, like in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. (Luke 18:9-14)

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I think you don’t actually know what I believe if you make this kind of baseless claim.

#1. I believe we are initially and ultimately saved by God’s grace (Note: Being saved by God’s grace can include receiving Jesus as one’s Savior, calling upon Jesus to save us and in seeking forgiveness over one’s old sinful way of life, and by believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that Jesus died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation) (Note: This is a process of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law; For if a believer sins, they go to God’s grace and they confess of their sins to Jesus and they do not do a good work to absolve that sin; For only God’s grace can cleanse us). Please keep in mind that the Pharisee did not do what the Tax Collector did. The Pharisee needed to throw himself down before the mercy of the Lord and seek forgiveness of his sins. For the Pharisee was making salvation all about works and no grace. So sorry. I don’t believe like the Pharisee did. I have even argued with other Christians on the forums who deny in being saved by God’s grace. So you are barking up the wrong tree and don’t even know it, my friend.

#2. I believe by my own power alone that I am nothing. I realize on my own, I cannot do anything truly good. I believe only God is good and He alone is the One who can do good works through us. This is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5), and He basically said God alone is good (Mark 10:18). For if any man think himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself (Galatians 6:3). So any good that is done in my life according to the faith, my praises go unto the Lord Jesus Christ, and I don’t seek to run in front of a mirror and scream out to be people to come and see how good I look. Only the Lord Jesus deserves all the glory, my friend.

For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is one of the major reasons why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him (See: Ephesians 5:25-27, and Titus 2:14). For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

You said:

I often hear works-salvationists cite Hebrews 12:14 and interpret it in such a way that implies if we are not holy "enough" (with ourselves) then we will not see the Lord, which is salvation by works. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14)

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Okay. I don’t believe we can be saved without first being saved by God’s grace. After we are saved by God’s grace we then need to enter the Sanctification Process. One cannot put the cart before the horse and think they are saved by Sanctification first. I have run into Christians who think that way and it is wrong. But we do know by Hebrews 12:14 that after we are saved by God’s grace, we need to do two things as a part of seeing the Lord (salvation).

#1. Follow peace with all men.
#2. Follow holiness.

Note: Following holiness is not even possible if one thinks they can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.

You said:

Those who are truly born again are sanctified, set apart, made holy in Christ Jesus. (1 Corinthians 6:11) Without justification, there is no sanctification and even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1) and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30) *ALL off them.

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Again, I believe that we need to be saved FIRST by God’s grace (which many theologians call Justification). I then believe Sanctification follows SECOND and not before.

Anyways, I believe Romans 8:30 uses the word “justified” in the same way James does in James 2:24. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. So both faith and works justifies according to James. However, faith comes first, and then works follow (and not the other way around). Works are merely a part of the Sanctification Process by the Holy Spirit (after we are saved by God’s grace). Therefore, when Paul speaks of being “justified” in Romans 8:30, Paul is referring to:

#1. Faith and
#2. The works of faith (Which is naturally a part of the faith).