Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

grafted branch said:

Since the dragon can be overcome by the blood of the Lamb then so can the beast, therefore the saints that are overcome in Revelation 13:7 are not relying on the blood of the Lamb.

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That particular group of saints had the Sea Beast wage war against them for 42 months and "overcome" them by killing them. God allowed the Sea Beast to do this; it was "given" unto the Sea Beast to wage this war against the saints. That is because God wanted to maximize the number of believers who would have died before the day of the AD 70 bodily resurrection came. Their being "overcome" by the Sea Beast who caused their physical death only resulted in their being given a victorious "crown of life" at the resurrection in that day of Christ's return in AD 70. Being "overcome" by martyrdom merely turned them into "overcomers" themselves due to the resurrection.

Those specific 42 months were the pogrom which Nero launched against the Christians from late AD 64 until just before his death in AD 68. This was just in time for those Christian martyrs to in turn victoriously "overcome" by participating in the AD 70 bodily resurrection.

grafted branch said:

Let me get your thoughts on Revelation 11. The 2 witnesses are overcome and killed. They then ascend to heaven in verse 12. Did the 2 witnesses overcome and take part in the AD 70 resurrection? If so then would you also say they overcame and at the same time they were overcome?

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The two witnesses were the two former high priests, Ananus ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel. After those 1260 days of testimony to their fellow Jews and the Idumeans (who rejected their messages), they were both killed and left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem during the Idumean / Zealot attack on those two former high priests and their followers. This was in either AD 67 or AD 68. But these two witnesses who would "ascend up to heaven in a cloud" could not have been taken into God's presence yet, because of the following reason:

The scripture is clear that "no man was able to enter into the temple" (in heaven) "till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." (Revelation 14:8). This was in AD 70, so the two former high priest witnesses who had been slain back in AD 67 or 68 could not have gone directly into God's presence at the time. We are also told just when heaven's temple was finally opened for access to resurrected humanity in Revelation 11:19. After the seventh angel sounded, it says, "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

The two witnesses of Revelation 11 died and were raised to life at the sixth trumpet. It would not be long after that sixth trumpet (the "second woe") when the seventh trumpet (the "third woe") would "come quickly" afterward, along with the "time of the dead, that they should be judged."

The "ascension up to heaven in a cloud" for the two witnesses would have been similar to that of Elijah, who was taken "as it were into heaven" (LXX translation). In actuality, Elijah was only transported through the skies to another location on earth. Some ten years later, Elijah wrote that letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:12, so his transport by the whirlwind into the sky did not carry him into God's presence on that occasion.

It could have well been the same case with the two witnesses Ananas and Joshua when these men were raised from the dead and ascended to heaven in a cloud. If these two former high priests were children of faith, after the 7 plagues were finished, they would eventually have been taken to heaven with the rest of the resurrected believers in the AD 70 resurrection at Christ's return.

3 Resurrections said:

That particular group of saints had the Sea Beast wage war against them for 42 months and "overcome" them by killing them. God allowed the Sea Beast to do this; it was "given" unto the Sea Beast to wage this war against the saints. That is because God wanted to maximize the number of believers who would have died before the day of the AD 70 bodily resurrection came. Their being "overcome" by the Sea Beast who caused their physical death only resulted in their being given a victorious "crown of life" at the resurrection in that day of Christ's return in AD 70. Being "overcome" by martyrdom merely turned them into "overcomers" themselves due to the resurrection.

Those specific 42 months were the pogrom which Nero launched against the Christians from late AD 64 until just before his death in AD 68. This was just in time for those Christian martyrs to in turn victoriously "overcome" by participating in the AD 70

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So this is the issue, at least for me, those who were martyred by the beast were in reality victorious, prevailed, or overcame. At the same time the beast is victorious, prevails, and overcomes those martyred.

Assuming both statements are true this describes a transaction not a war. Both parties involved received what they wanted, similar to me purchasing an item at a store.

I haven’t searched for this, but do you know of any other place in the scriptures where the word “war” is used this way?

grafted branch said:

So this is the issue, at least for me, those who were martyred by the beast were in reality victorious, prevailed, or overcame. At the same time the beast is victorious, prevails, and overcomes those martyred.

Assuming both statements are true this describes a transaction not a war. Both parties involved received what they wanted, similar to me purchasing an item at a store

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I would hardly call it a "transaction" similar to a store purchase - this "war" between the children of faith and those who are not. This has been going on since Cain killed Abel, and Ishmael persecuted young Isaac. The two parties have always been instinctively aligned against each other. "As then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." (Gal. 4:29).

But no matter how extreme the efforts of the wicked to wipe the children of faith off the planet, the worst they can do is to "overcome" them by killing the body, which merely delivers the spirit of the believer to their Father in heaven. After that, "they have no more that they can do". God always gets the last word in this "war", and triumphantly resurrects the bodies of His saints in a resurrection process. He makes even the wrath of men to praise Him; the remainder of wrath He restrains from happening.

That "war" instigated by the Dragon was also waged against the "remnant" of the seed of the woman in Revelation 12:17. Satan was loosed for that "short time" by being cast down from heaven to earth after Christ's ascension. In great wrath, Satan immediately plunged into a "war" with the efforts of the resurrected Matthew 27 saints, who were prophets and apostles, evangelists, pastors and teachers in the early church. They were the "remnant" who had come to life again in the "first resurrection", and were one of the Dragon's prime targets to oppose, since they could not be physically killed.

Timothy was also urged by Paul to "war the good warfare" by holding to faith and a good conscience (1 Tim. 1:18). To "fight the good fight" so that he could "lay hold on eternal life" with its crown of life in the resurrection (1 Tim. 6:12). The weapons of Timothy's warfare were not carnal, however, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds.

In spite of Satan's furiously ramped-up activity in that "short time" of the first century, God's strike against His and the church's enemies in the AD 70 war against them resulted in the wicked being overcome by physical death, with the birds literally eating their flesh in that "supper of the great God". In righteousness, Christ judged and "made war" during that period. The slain of the Lord were many in that day, including the Dragon who was slain by God, as Isaiah 27:1 foretold would happen in that day.

parousia70 said:

Why do I need to?
And what does computers have to do with it?
You claimed the end of all things is contextual.
You yourself freely admit the end of all things doesn’t literally mean the end of ALL things.

On that, we agree.

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What context? Fire did not bring the Roman Empire to an end in 70AD. The fire Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3 certainly was not fulfilled in 70AD.

3 Resurrections said:

That "war" instigated by the Dragon was also waged against the "remnant" of the seed of the woman in Revelation 12:17. Satan was loosed for that "short time" by being cast down from heaven to earth after Christ's ascension.

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Does this mean he was bound prior to that, that the thousand year reigning with Christ, this precedes Christ's ascension? I know you touched on something like this in the past but I'm unable at this time to recall what all you concluded. Some of your position is just too far fetched to me to try and recall what all it is that you concluded. Keep in mind that I said far fetched to me which isn't exactly the same as calling it far fetched period, since you don't see it as far fetched obviously, and that some others might not as well for all I know.

That aside, some of what you submitted in this post I find to be great points, thus tend to agree with you about. Your first two paragraphs, for example.

Timtofly said:

What context? Fire did not bring the Roman Empire to an end in 70AD. The fire Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3 certainly was not fulfilled in 70AD.

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The fire was brought by the Roman Empire and ended the land/nation of Israel. I am pretty sure there was also much smoke in the sky. So what was not fulfilled? Perhaps some figures of speech, but it is to be expected.

grafted branch said:

In Revelation 11:7 it says the 2 witnesses are overcome and killed. The word “overcome “ doesn’t mean to kill in this case else Revelation 11:7 says they shall be killed and killed; this wouldn’t make sense. How are you interpreting the word overcome?

I completely agree that salvation can’t be lost . I was trying to point out that those who do believe salvation can be lost can interpret the word “overcome” as believers losing their salvation.

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The word as used in context. To subdue, would be the normal definition. Have victory over something.

In Revelation 11, the 2 witnesses have been trouble to Satan for 42 months. That trouble was overcome. In Revelation 13, Jesus as Prince had a throne in Jerusalem during the Trumpets and Thunders. The 144k were His disciples. The 7th Trumpet declared the final harvest over. Yet, some souls still needed harvested. These would be beheaded over the next 42 months. Jesus and the 144k were not going to be in charge for that period. Thus we have the word overcome. God granted Satan and the FP that authority, while Jesus and the 144k waited on Mt. Zion.


"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

This would fulfill Daniel 9:27

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

After the final harvest, the 7th Trumpet is the week of confirming all had been covered by the Atonement of the Cross. The 42 months of desolation splits this week in half. The week is extended. The "war" is just the handing over the authority to Satan, so the 42 months of desolation can happen. Only then will these beheaded souls exist, as that is the only reason for this 42 months of desolation. Not because Satan some how became stronger than God or Jesus Christ and His 144k disciples.

The same thing happens to the 2 witnesses, as their time is over as well as Satan's 42 months. Satan will be defeated and bound at Armageddon, 3.5 days after he kills the 2 witnesses. The week of the 7th Trumpet is concluded. The 7 vials will be poured out during those 3.5 days. Daniel's 70th week will be finished when Satan is bound, and the FP and beast thrown into the LOF.

DavidPT said:

Does this mean he was bound prior to that, that the thousand year reigning with Christ, this precedes Christ's ascension? I know you touched on something like this in the past but I'm unable at this time to recall what all you concluded. Some of your position is just too far fetched to me to try and recall what all it is that you concluded

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No offense taken at all, DavidPT. I'm sure most of what I write does indeed sound strange compared to the typical stuff that has come out of the pulpit and from books that people have read on the subject. But before God, I am convinced that these views match the message of scripture in its entirety. If I state something in error and this can be proved by scripture and sound reasoning, I have no problem with altering or retracting something I have written (and have done so before on other websites).

Satan was, of course, "bound" for the literal thousand years prior to that infuriated "war" he engaged in against the "remnant" of the woman's seed (which "remnant" was the Matthew 27 resurrected saints who kept the commandments of God and had the testimony of Jesus Christ). We can know with absolute certainty that the thousand years had "expired" and "finished" even before John was writing Revelation, simply because John gave the church a warning that Satan was presently loosed among them for that "short time". If Satan's "short time" and "little season" of operating in this world had already begun before John was writing Revelation, this is proof positive that the millennium was already over.

Compare Revelation 12:12 with the Revelation 20:3 & 7 verses, and this is the inevitable conclusion. The Revelation 20 millennium of a literal thousand years was OVER when Satan was loosed for a "little season". I claim that this millennium ended at Christ's ascension in AD 33, when Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels down to earth for that "short time" of deceiving the nations once more. The "short time" / "little season" for Satan began at the point when the thousand years had "expired". His 1,000-year binding had started earlier, back when Solomon's temple foundation stone was laid down in 968 / 967 BC. The millennium constituted the entire period of God authorizing an established physical Temple worship system. This only lasted until Christ became the "foundation stone" of the spiritual Temple not made with hands in AD 33.

Christ had twice forewarned the disciples of Satan being loosed, just prior to His crucifixion death. In John 12:31-33, (five days prior to His death), Christ told the people "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." (Cast out of heaven down to earth, as in Rev. 12:9). "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he was about to die."

Even closer to that "casting out" of Satan from heaven, on the very night of the Last Supper, Christ told His disciples in John 14:30, "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." Satan as a "roaring lion" was soon to be cast out of his access to heaven at the end of the millennium, and was coming to wage infuriated war on the believers for that brief "short time" that he had left to operate in this world (from AD 33 until Satan was slain in AD 70).

grafted branch said:

I think the word “saint” in Revelation 13:7 is referring to national Israel. Looking at verses such as Deuteronomy 14:2 would suggest that the entire nation (both the saved and unsaved) was considered as being set apart by God.

The word saint <40> means set apart by God, holy, sacred.

The reason Revelation 13 can’t be future for those who think OSAS is that New Testament saints can’t ever be overcome. In Revelation chapters 2 and 3 every church is told, in various ways, that if they overcome they will be saved.

So if true believers are being overcome in Revelation 13 then you have Satan overcoming believers while simultaneously believers overcome Satan. This simply doesn’t make sense.

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Now you introduce the command to overcome. We are to subdue and have victory over sin. That has been the point since the Resurrection and the Cross, not just an end of the age recommendation.

That overcoming has nothing whatsoever to do with the saints overcome in Revelation 13. That is why context matters.

The only saints alive in Revelation 13 are the 144k. The final harvest is not a conversion or second birth. The final harvest is when angels literally remove the souls of the living and take them to the Resurrection and judgment in Revelation 20:4.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the final outcome of the sheep and goats and the wheat and the tares. The angels are on earth for this literal event. Not some symbolism of a single day of Judgment. There is no set time frame for this event. This is the GT. This the time shortened for the elect's sake, not for the saints sake.

Christians leave before the Second Coming, and more experience the second birth, because the Second Coming has not happened yet. That is an extension of the church "age". That makes the GT a shorter length of time. Right now saints and elect are the same, no distinction since the Cross. The whole Israel cut off, and the wild branch grafted in symbolism. At the Second Coming, that stops. No more church period. The church is now glorified in Paradise.

That is the distinction in Revelation 7 between the 144k and those in Paradise before the throne. The 144k are those working with Christ during the final harvest along with the angels. We are not told the details. We just see the distinction.

No one recieves the second birth after the 6th Seal, Second Coming event. The longer the Second Coming is withheld by God, the more elect choose the second birth. But there will come a point when time is up. We are not given the exact timing and that is why it is just guess work.

Also the point about the 4th Seal where 25% of humanity is gone. Is that all the Christians leaving or will that 2 billion include non Christians? A war where that many people die, would be hard not to notice as a sign the 5th and 6th Seal are about to be opened. But not just a war; plague, famine, and wild animals are involved. So the overcoming in the first 3 chapters is about remaining faithful until physical death or the rapture in which this body will return to dust either way.

It is still not about escaping death or dying. "Overcome" is not about death, nor loosing one's salvation.

3 Resurrections said:

I would hardly call it a "transaction" similar to a store purchase - this "war" between the children of faith and those who are not. This has been going on since Cain killed Abel, and Ishmael persecuted young Isaac. The two parties have always been instinctively aligned against each other. "As then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." (Gal. 4:29).

But no matter how extreme the efforts of the wicked to wipe the children of faith off the planet, the worst they can do is to "overcome" them by killing the body, which merely delivers the spirit of the believer to their Father in heaven. After that, "they have no more that they can do". God always gets the last word in this "war", and triumphantly resurrects the bodies of His saints in a resurrection process. He makes even the wrath of men to praise Him; the remainder of wrath He restrains from happening.

That "war" instigated by the Dragon was also waged against the "remnant" of the seed of the woman in Revelation 12:17. Satan was loosed for that "short time" by being cast down from heaven to earth after Christ's ascension. In great wrath, Satan immediately plunged into a "war" with the efforts of the resurrected Matthew 27 saints, who were prophets and apostles, evangelists, pastors and teachers in the early church. They were the "remnant" who had come to life again in the "first resurrection", and were one of the Dragon's prime targets to oppose, since they could not be physically killed.

Timothy was also urged by Paul to "war the good warfare" by holding to faith and a good conscience (1 Tim. 1:18). To "fight the good fight" so that he could "lay hold on eternal life" with its crown of life in the resurrection (1 Tim. 6:12). The weapons of Timothy's warfare were not carnal, however, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds.

In spite of Satan's furiously ramped-up activity in that "short time" of the first century, God's strike against His and the church's enemies in the AD 70 war against them resulted in the wicked being overcome by physical death, with the birds literally eating their flesh in that "supper of the great God". In righteousness, Christ judged and "made war" during that period. The slain of the Lord were many in that day, including the Dragon who was slain by God, as Isaiah 27:1 foretold would happen in that day.

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I realize that Satan wages war but it is spiritual warfare that believers are involved with.


I guess I don’t understand “overcome” as others do. My personal experience as being a Christian doesn’t involve me having a physical war over physical things. If I were to loose all my earthly possessions, including the health of my physical body, I will gladly accept it and thank God; because I know my salvation is secure. Salvation is infinitely more important to me than anything else. As the song says, what ever my lot thou hast taught me to say it is well with my soul.


I simply can’t understand why any Christian would think they have been overcome unless they think they have lost their salvation. Revelation was written to believers so our perspective on this should be that the beast doesn’t overcome us. I have never heard a sermon where the preacher said “expect to be overcome”. They may say expect persecution but I have never heard one say expect it to overcome you, yet that would be true if Revelation is interpreted as some do.


I’m not satisfied with your answer in regards to an example where evil wins and righteousness wins simultaneously. I’m going to study this more but I suspect the interpretation that the beast overcomes while at the same time the saints also overcome is not found elsewhere in the scriptures.

grafted branch said:

Every instance of the word “overcome” in Revelation is the same Greek word <3528>. The definition according to Strong’s is to conquer, prevail.

It just doesn’t make sense to me that true believers prevail against the beast while the beast prevails against the believers.

Do you have a different definition of “overcome”?

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It is not about belief or believers. That is the issue. It has nothing to do with changing one's belief system.

The 144k are not believers. That is putting them in the wrong category. Even at the first coming in the first century, Jesus' disciples became believers, but had no belief or faith, when present with Christ. They were disciples, learning from Christ. Outside of the 12, there were many who even doubted and left.

A believer is typically one who trusts in faith, not one who can see Christ face to face.

Neither is Revelation 13 a test of faith. Satan is granted by God authority for 42 months. That is it. Christ and the 144k are on Mt. Zion. They are no longer in Jerusalem with authority. No believers are on earth. Those who refuse Satan are beheaded. No longer on earth, as they are literally dead. Not headless zombies walking around converting others to join their headless cult. This is not a test of faith to overcome. This is one allowing their head to be cut off to avoid the mark, and to keep their name in the Lamb's book of life.

Timtofly said:

It is not about belief or believers. That is the issue. It has nothing to do with changing one's belief system.

The 144k are not believers. That is putting them in the wrong category. Even at the first coming in the first century, Jesus' disciples became believers, but had no belief or faith, when present with Christ. They were disciples, learning from Christ. Outside of the 12, there were many who even doubted and left.

A believer is typically one who trusts in faith, not one who can see Christ face to face.

Neither is Revelation 13 a test of faith. Satan is granted by God authority for 42 months. That is it. Christ and the 144k are on Mt. Zion. They are no longer in Jerusalem with authority. No believers are on earth. Those who refuse Satan are beheaded. No longer on earth, as they are literally dead. Not headless zombies walking around converting others to join their headless cult. This is not a test of faith to overcome. This is one allowing their head to be cut off to avoid the mark, and to keep their name in the Lamb's book of life.

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So would you say that the word “saints” in Revelation 13:7 is not referring to believers?

Spiritual Jew said:

Being overcome physically is an entirely different thing than being overcome spiritually.

Ridiculous question which makes me wonder if you're actually reading what I'm saying. For some reason you're acting as if the word "overcome" can only apply to being spiritually overcome. That is simply not the case.

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What does physically overcome entail? Sickness? Death? Is being a martyr the physical act of being overcome?

Those beheaded are not martyrs in the traditional sense. Having one's head cut off is in opposition to Satan, yes, but not exactly a role call to the second birth.

Overcoming spiritually is the second birth. Some Christians die of physical causes not killed by Satan.

In Revelation 13, Satan causes them to starve. It never states Satan or his followers are actually the one's cutting the heads off. Satan does not want any one to cut off their heads. That means they will not join him in the Lake of Fire. Satan will probably try to prevent people from having their head chopped off.

parousia70 said:

There is only ONE Coming of Christ as a thief prophesied in scripture, and it was promised to befall actual living, breathing, blood pumping, First Century peoples. (Revelation 3:3)

It is NOT an event that happens again and again.

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I disagree, but you already knew that. No sense in saying any more than that.

I have no idea. I don't even pretend to know.
The timing and details of that event have not been reveled to men (Deuteronomy 29:29)
I have no reason to even speculate. Such is not my charge in this life. My Charge is to Subdue Kindgoms and Establish Righteousness like the Hebrews 11 Heroes before me. And we cannot fail (Matthew 16:18)

There has not been even one single end time prognosticator since the 1st century that has been correct in their "Last Days" predictions. All have failed.
Every. Last. One.
Why would I want to hang my hat with that lot?

Just Like the 1900+ years of Christians who have come and gone before me, odds are, I will draw my final breath long before that event comes to pass, so any speculating, guessing, hand wringing or fretting about it would only serve as a distraction from my comission stated above.

I've witnessed the destruction such distraction can bring about in our world, and I will take no part in it.

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Why do you suppose that such a significant event (the future coming of Christ) would not give any details about it in scripture? I frankly think that makes no sense at all and, obviously, I do believe that it is talked about in scripture. I'm amazed that someone would believe in that event but at the same time believe that scripture contains no details about it. I'm glad you at least believe it will happen.

Timtofly said:

In Revelation 13, Satan causes them to starve. It never states Satan or his followers are actually the one's cutting the heads off. Satan does not want any one to cut off their heads. That means they will not join him in the Lake of Fire. Satan will probably try to prevent people from having their head chopped off.

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This is some bizarre reasoning you have going on here. Assuming their heads literally get chopped off, do you think they themselves are chopping off their own heads or something? Do you think murdering someone is not worthy of the LOF if they don't repent? If any of them have their heads literally chopped off, but that they themselves are not chopping off their own heads, nor are any followers of the beast and satan chopping off their heads, who is that you are proposing is chopping off their heads? In the real world when something like that happens it is always a real flesh and blood person chopping off someone's head. Maybe in cartoons or movies that might not always be true. But I'm talking about in the real world here.

grafted branch said:

I’m not satisfied with your answer in regards to an example where evil wins and righteousness wins simultaneously. I’m going to study this more but I suspect the interpretation that the beast overcomes while at the same time the saints also overcome is not found elsewhere in the scriptures.

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If you can't think of any examples where God extracts victory out of evil taking place in the world, you have forgotten so many of the OT examples. Wasn't Joseph's wrongful enslavement and imprisonment only a training program for his being the savior of Egypt? What Joseph's brothers meant for evil, God meant for good to preserve much people alive.

Wasn't Jacob's vile treatment by Laban only a catalyst for Jacob becoming the prevailing prince of Israel?

Wasn't the Egyptian bondage for Israel the stage props for the miraculous Exodus through which God delivered the nation of Israel and gave them the laws of God?

The crucifixion of Christ is the ultimate example of evil presuming it has prevailed, only to simultaneously provide the very means of its own defeat. By "wicked hands" the Jews betrayed and murdered Christ, but it was God's "determinate council and foreknowledge" that designed our redemption by this means. (Acts 2:23).

3 Resurrections said:

If you can't think of any examples where God extracts victory out of evil taking place in the world, you have forgotten so many of the OT examples. Wasn't Joseph's wrongful enslavement and imprisonment only a training program for his being the savior of Egypt? What Joseph's brothers meant for evil, God meant for good to preserve much people alive.

Wasn't Jacob's vile treatment by Laban only a catalyst for Jacob becoming the prevailing prince of Israel?

Wasn't the Egyptian bondage for Israel the stage props for the miraculous Exodus through which God delivered the nation of Israel and gave them the laws of God?

The crucifixion of Christ is the ultimate example of evil presuming it has prevailed, only to simultaneously provide the very means of its own defeat. By "wicked hands" the Jews betrayed and murdered Christ, but it was God's "determinate council and foreknowledge" that designed our redemption by this means. (Acts 2:23).

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I agree there are multiple examples of things that are meant for evil but all things work together for good to them that love God. I would say the reason being is that believers aren’t overcome.


Let’s look at Romans 12:21. Be not overcome <3528> of evil, but overcome <3528> evil with good.


Did Jesus abide by this or not? The obvious answer is yes. So Jesus was not overcome of evil, He voluntarily laid down his life.


Can you provide a clear example of a believer being overcome? It would help me if the passage contained the word overcome <3528>.

3 Resurrections said:

That particular group of saints had the Sea Beast wage war against them for 42 months and "overcome" them by killing them. God allowed the Sea Beast to do this; it was "given" unto the Sea Beast to wage this war against the saints. That is because God wanted to maximize the number of believers who would have died before the day of the AD 70 bodily resurrection came. Their being "overcome" by the Sea Beast who caused their physical death only resulted in their being given a victorious "crown of life" at the resurrection in that day of Christ's return in AD 70. Being "overcome" by martyrdom merely turned them into "overcomers" themselves due to the resurrection.

Those specific 42 months were the pogrom which Nero launched against the Christians from late AD 64 until just before his death in AD 68. This was just in time for those Christian martyrs to in turn victoriously "overcome" by participating in the AD 70 bodily resurrection.



The two witnesses were the two former high priests, Ananus ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel. After those 1260 days of testimony to their fellow Jews and the Idumeans (who rejected their messages), they were both killed and left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem during the Idumean / Zealot attack on those two former high priests and their followers. This was in either AD 67 or AD 68. But these two witnesses who would "ascend up to heaven in a cloud" could not have been taken into God's presence yet, because of the following reason:

The scripture is clear that "no man was able to enter into the temple" (in heaven) "till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." (Revelation 14:8). This was in AD 70, so the two former high priest witnesses who had been slain back in AD 67 or 68 could not have gone directly into God's presence at the time. We are also told just when heaven's temple was finally opened for access to resurrected humanity in Revelation 11:19. After the seventh angel sounded, it says, "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

The two witnesses of Revelation 11 died and were raised to life at the sixth trumpet. It would not be long after that sixth trumpet (the "second woe") when the seventh trumpet (the "third woe") would "come quickly" afterward, along with the "time of the dead, that they should be judged."

The "ascension up to heaven in a cloud" for the two witnesses would have been similar to that of Elijah, who was taken "as it were into heaven" (LXX translation). In actuality, Elijah was only transported through the skies to another location on earth. Some ten years later, Elijah wrote that letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:12, so his transport by the whirlwind into the sky did not carry him into God's presence on that occasion.

It could have well been the same case with the two witnesses Ananas and Joshua when these men were raised from the dead and ascended to heaven in a cloud. If these two former high priests were children of faith, after the 7 plagues were finished, they would eventually have been taken to heaven with the rest of the resurrected believers in the AD 70 resurrection at Christ's return.

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That is a lot of "ifs". It did not happen, because it would have made it into the Bible.

Timtofly said:

That is a lot of "ifs". It did not happen, because it would have made it into the Bible.

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What exactly are you referring to which did not make it into the Bible? The past fulfillment of all Revelation's near-future prophecies? That book was written no later than early AD 60, just before the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake, so the Great Tribulation with its outpouring of God's judgment from AD 66-70 had not yet happened then, but was on the near horizon.

Some of those Revelation events are described as happening in Acts and the epistles. For example, Agabus predicting the famine to take place over the whole world back then. The Egyptian insurrectionist in the wilderness being one of the pseudo-Christs which Jesus predicted would arise. Christ had predicted that the disciples would be beaten in the synagogues and sent before the Sanhedrin and imprisoned, as the "beginning of sorrows", even before the Great Tribulation started.

And the Sea Beast's blistering persecution of the saints under Nero for the 42 months (starting in late AD 64 after the fire at Rome) had already begun as Peter was writing. In 1 Peter 1:7, the apostle Peter spoke of the saints' "manifold temptations", and the "trial of your faith", even "by fire" which was then testing the believers he was writing to. Peter wrote in 1 Peter 4:12 of the "fiery trial which is taking place" which was giving the believers a share in Christ's sufferings. Peter was encouraging them to rejoice in those sufferings, since "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7). Peter told them that as an elder, he was a partaker of "the glory that is about to be revealed" when the chief Shepherd would appear (1 Peter 5:1 & 4). Peter wrote that God was "prepared to judge the living and the dead" at that time. Which meant a resurrection in the near future from the time Peter was writing around AD 65.

The traumatic events of Revelation were in the process of taking place for that generation. The recorded fulfillment of most of them was not put into the complete canon (because it was all penned no later than AD 67 when Peter and Paul were martyred). However, we do have historical records which account for Revelation's revealed prophecies taking place in that generation. We have enough of the start of Revelation's events listed in scripture that lets us know these prophetic events had begun by then, and are by now ancient history.

grafted branch said:

Did Jesus abide by this or not? The obvious answer is yes. So Jesus was not overcome of evil, He voluntarily laid down his life.

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My original point was that Jesus said that His "overcoming" was in passing through death and resurrecting Himself from the dead, after which He was seated on His throne in heaven (Revelation 3:21).

John drew on this theme and applied it to the disciples as well. "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." The believers were being encouraged to literally lay down their lives for the sake of the brethren in those days of persecution (1 John 3:16), in imitation of Christ having "overcome" in this same way. To risk dying sacrificially in service to their fellow believers in those days would have caused the saints to be temporarily "overcome" by physical death, but would have resulted in their being resurrected, when death was swallowed up in victory.

For Christ's sake, Paul said the believers were then being killed all the day long; they were being counted as sheep for the slaughter. But in all those things, Paul said "we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us." Death had no power to separate them from the love of God which was in Christ Jesus their Lord. (Romans 8:35ff).