William Lane Craig vs James White - Calvinism vs Molinism on the Problem of Evil

BBAS 64

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I have respect for these 2 men, and I am really looking forward to this interview. My hope is this will lead to a formal 3–4-hour moderated debate with long sessions of cross examinations. YouTube will premiere the interaction today at 100 PM EST.


 

deusartemlux

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White represents scripture while the other guy offers a philosophical argument.
haha! YAS! Just what me and a dude from work said. Craig even admits to that seemingly. "models for the data of scripture" Like bruh, you even sola scriptura?!
I can't say I see full on theistic determinism in the Bible though, and White seems to stray that way.
 
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Amittai

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Why is there reputed to be a "Problem" "OF Evil"? We've figured out my mum is last known to have seen the brother she didn't tell us she had when she was 16 and he was 12. Problems are caused by evils. As a guest "reformanda" at my rather good new church I've questions, which they haven't had time to go over with me yet.

Does White represent meanings in Scripture? Why would there be anything special in either Calvin OR Armin? Was Molina a politician? Was he a "church leader" (or just an academic incidentally in some denomination or other's holy orders)? Why wouldn't God see? Can't He see? Does contingency come in (S J Gould liked Bell curves; while this is headlined as an internal "reformanda" controversy there is no reason we can't be helped by agnostics).

If one feels semi-detached as "reformanda" is one exempted from taking any notice of this (perhaps non) issue? Is "reformanda" religion supposed to be different from trinitarian? Who is "Another Comforter"? Who said "predestination" is ad hominem? Does or does not the NT and much of the OT demonstrate by implication the economy of God's Kingdom? Is there a "reformanda" agenda on the existence of reason?

Do the speakers address these adequately? But I need text to read. Please direct me to threads where arguments that point somewhere and aren't the rehashes, have been set forth in writing.
 
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Amittai

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From what I've tread in the last few minutes there is misunderstanding of what "metaphysical truths" in their different layers would mean regarding counterfactuals (among other things, all truth is in reality before it is in propositions). And Lane Craig is not a genuine advocate because of his "logos" kerfuffle, so anything he claims he's saying will be beside the point. While it's common in secular universities for faculty to represent opposing schools of thought, I'm not sure how that usually gets managed in a christian one (while I hope that suitable diversity will be maintained).

As Duhem, G⍥del and countless others keep reminding us, no body of theory is complete, from which it follows that nothing totally refutes it either. Degrees of inference have to keep being done by each of us to make all knowledge work.
 
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Amittai

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Is Lane Craig following in the footsteps of Hartshorne and of Heidegger (the Hegelian Spinozist) in claiming to be a theologian? Both those two ignored the light shed by Husserl on "metaphysics" through his phenomenology, and trivialised the perceptions of Bergson, Whitehead and Peirce. White is right to protest against the way WLC mixes claimed theology with philosophy but WLC is doing it the opposite way than White says.
 
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BBAS 64

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WLC has failed to account for his magical "counterfactuals" that limit the working parameters of God:

upload_2022-3-4_14-12-14.png
 
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Don Maurer

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Good Day, All


I have respect for these 2 men, and I am really looking forward to this interview. My hope is this will lead to a formal 3–4-hour moderated debate with long sessions of cross examinations. YouTube will premiere the interaction today at 100 PM EST.


I want to watch this video, and will continue, but I am already disappointed in the first 16.5 minutes. The first argument by the Molinist, William Lane Craig assumes that Calvinists believe that "God moves the will of the creature" to do evil and is therefore the cause of the evil.

I am very disappointed at an opening statement that already contains what I consider to be an obvious straw man. I consider myself to be a Calvinist and I would certainly disagree with any concept that God moves the will of the sinner to sin. God does not need to do this since we are already sinful. I hope the Calvinist debater, James White does not let that one go by.

I had to take a pause and say that. I will go back to listening.
 
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Don Maurer

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Listened to the whole thing.

Craig seemed to have two main points that he repeated multiple times.
1-- If God ordains sin, then he is participating in sin.
2-- "Calvinism" is required to be stated in scriptures propositionally.

Point 1-- White addressed the first point several times. At one point he mentioned the "eternal decree" and the "prescriptive decree." He also went to Genesis 50:20 and Ephesians 1. Craig countered that these references are also consistent with Molinism. This has to do with point 2 above.

2-- I think point two was the "dividing line" (Excuse pun). Several times Craig mentioned the concept that Reformed theology is not explicitly taught in scriptures. Craig was requiring a standard for Reformed Calvinism that only the propositional statements of scripture can be used to establish Reformed theology. On the other hand, he did not apply this standard to his own theology. He freely admitted that his own theology is only "consistent" with scripture. Craig tried suggest that White was approaching texts like Genesis 50:20 and Ephesians 1 with reformed presuppositions. White is usually excellent in exegesis, but he did not go there. In any case, I reject the idea that theology must come only from the propositions of the scriptures. The scriptures must be read in a theological way. Inference is important.

I guess this was not a debate, but a conversation. It is much easier to the the monday morning quarterback, but I think point 2 was insufficiently addressed in the conversation.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Well, I think for this discussion; a couple of theological definitions need to be understood.

1. "Free will" as opposed to "independent volition".

Theologically speaking, the concept of "free will" implies decisions made not encumbered by sin or a fallen nature. Post Adam and Eve's transgression; no entity (human or angelic agent) except Jesus Christ truly has "free will".

Even "elect angels" were sealed unto their state of continued obedience because of the completion of the atonement. It seems to me that until the point Christ rose from the dead, obedient angels could still freely choose to disobey God.

Even animal kingdom creatures actions are driven by living in a fallen world. They too can make choices which are not fully the driven product of instinct. These choices can be "apparently moral" to human observation, though the creatures have no process of cognitively contemplating "moral choice"; for they are not created in the image of God. Creatures though can and often do choose what is "good", because being life forms possessed of the "breath of life"; which coming from God is inherently good (possessing "good moral fabric") because God is good.

Now, all creatures possessing the cognitive capacity to make decisions independent of the desires of other beings possess an "independent volition". (They possess the ability to obey or disobey according to their status of "created in God's image" or not. That is not theologically the same thing as "free will" though.

Independent volition in humans can choose moral appropriateness as opposed to moral evil. Moral appropriateness as opposed to moral evil is what's judged by the law; both written revelation (Scripture) as well as conscience, in which law is dictated by reality of being created in God's image. Man intuitively knows the law regardless of whether or not individuals have the Scripture, because all humanity is created in God's image.

Being judged by the law is what causes condemnation because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". (This is codified in the Old Testament.) And this is why in fallen humanity there is no such thing as "free will" theologically speaking. "The wages of sin is death" and the law meets out those wages based on the moral decisions made by the independent volition.

This is what accounts for the theological difference between "totally depraved" an "depraved totally".

"Totally depraved" means the impact of sin and a fallen nature drives all decisions of the independent volition.

"Depraved totally" would mean that all possible moral choices would be made in the direction of the fullest extent of moral evil that creature could possibly manifest.

Man's fall was "total", as in he can not restore his own "free will". Yet he maintains the ability to decide the extent of moral transgression he is willing to commit.

Satan on the other hand is "depraved totally" as in he will only choose the maximum amount of evil he's capable of inflicting. This is the manifestation of angels (particularly fallen ones in Satan's example) not being created in the image of God.

This is a different state than humanity; whom all individual humans bear the potential of being one of God's elect; that election being secured by the atonement provided through Christ. Of course no human deserves redemption, for all have sinned. Yet the only way to be redeemed out from under God's wrath for disobedience to the law; is in Christ having decided (upon God's own free will) to atone for that individual's sin. That decision was made among the members of the Godhead prior to ever creating anything. This is why the "elect" are "predestine" to that election by the "foreknowledge" of God. It's not that God "foresaw" their "free will" to choose. That is not what predestination means. The "foreknowledge" of God is the determination of who would be atoned for, not based on how well they obeyed the law, but solely based on God's free choice.

2. The nature of God:
Now God by the nature of what God is as omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, immortal and eternal only needs to determine prior to creation through "foreknowledge" whom He will redeem.

Because He's omnipotent and omnipresent, He does not need to "write a timeline" of every detail that would happen in the cosmos. (Hyper calvinism). Nor does he need to "micromanage" the choices of all creatures; simply because He is omnipotent to superimpose His will in real time, where need be to accomplish His will.

God is inherently omniscient in that as immortal, He is outside of time. Thus another reason He doesn't need to "micro-plan" the outcome of time prior to creation.

Molinism fails in its account of the power of God, in Craig's rightful attempt to explain why God is not responsible for man's sin.

White's portrayal of Calvinism fails in his presentation of the presence of God. In his missing the context of the theological definition of "free will" as opposed to "independent volition"; White makes God accountable for human sin.

3. What is "evil"?
I think Craig did well in his explanation of "natural evil" being different than "moral evil". (I'd use the term "natural calamity" instead of "natural evil" as the word "evil" implies a moral decision making process that assigns the motive of wickedness to the action.)

For when God sends "natural calamity"; that is a process of His justice, even in the sense that those who've not committed "moral evil" are still subject to "natural calamity" because "natural calamity" is used by God to accomplish His purposes. Natural calamity doesn't necessarily befall individuals on account of their personal guilt. Sometimes it does; but just because natural calamity befalls, is not an indication of the commission of personal moral evil that predicated the befalling of that specific natural calamity.

God does not maliciously strike "random" events on unsuspecting creatures. All natural calamity serves God's purpose. Although moral evil committed by the creatures does not serve God's purposes; He is capable of "working all things to the good ... of those called according to His purposes". So thus God has only "allowed" "moral evil" on account of Him creating creatures who (like Himself) possess an independent volition to act.

Now where did "evil" come from? That is a different theological question. But "moral evil" as manifest in the created world, had no acting agent until creatures who possessed independent volition to (at the onset "freely choose) to be corrupted by that evil, were created.

Personally I think "evil" came into existence as a reaction to God's creating a universe. For "to every action is an equal and opposite reaction". This is one of the most basic principles in action in this current cosmos. For some conceptional existence of "evil" had to be present to order for Lucifer (followed by Adam) to freely choose disobedience. But once that choice was made, the ability to freely make choices subsequently disappeared. Thus, this is what constituted "the fall". "The fall" was one of the consequence of Adam's choice to disobey.
 
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