How do you view Revelation? (Judgement free)

HTacianas said:

The Revelation is a brief recounting of the birth of Jesus, the Flight to Egypt, persecution of the Church of the writer's time, an in-depth description of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and a vague look into the distant future.

If you ant to now what the bulk of the Revelation describes, read The Jewish War by Flavius Josephus. It's unmistakable. Sea turning to blood, fire coming down from heaven in the sight of men, men hiding in the rocks of the earth, hailstones the weight of a talent, men seeking death and not finding it, men killed by the beasts of the earth, and on and on.

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Jesus says tge great tribulation will be a time of trouble worse than ever has been, or ever will be, so bad that if the time wasn’t shortened, no flesh would be saved.

The local events in 70 AD weren’t even as bad as WORLD war 2, let alone worse. 50 million died in WW2.

There are dozens of events in prophecy not fulfilled- one third of the world hasn’t been burned, one third of mankind hasn’t been killed, Mount Olive has not been split in two with a huge chasm in the middle, the new earth with no seas isn’t here, the 1500 mile city new Jerusalem has not descended from heaven, and Jesus is not ruling the nations with a rod of iron, on the throne of David, in Jerusalem.

parousia70 said:

I don't see how the text supports this at all

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I'm talking about the earth age in general, which totally goes off in a different subject, but I'll post a few verses,



II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

If one takes the entire bible in context, we see that God did not create the earth without form and void. So the word "was" should be properly translated -"became" void and without form.

Deep -Hebrew word 8415 -an abyss (surging mass of water) (the main sea or the subterranean water suplly -deep

This is exactly what Peter is talking about, that people are willingly ignorant of the fact that by the word of God the heavens were of old and the earth is standing out of the water and in the water. Not one Christian is willingly ignorant about Noah's flood. But many gloss over these Genesis verses (as Peter stated, the word of God) which state that the earth was covered in water completely before this age even started. Peter says that world perished but the heavens and earth which are now are kept in store. And common sense alone tells us the earth is of old, we have the fossils to prove it.


II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:", being overflowed with water, perished:"

II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

I'm of the belief that there was a world age before this one as the word of God declares as Peter states. The gospels are talking about the end of this current age that we presently are in.

parousia70 said:

I don't see how the text supports this at all.

Q: In what age was Jesus born?

A: The Old Testament Law Age:
"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law [of Moses]" (Gal 4:4)

Q: At what point in that Old Testament age did Jesus appear, suffer, and die on the Cross?

A: "In these last days has spoken to us in His Son" (Hebrews 1:2). "But now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb 9:26). "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you" (1 Peter 1:20).

Q: What age were the apostles in at the time they asked Jesus, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

A: as demonstrated above, They were in the Old Testament Age. Therefore their statement logically spoke of the signs accompanying the end of that Age.

There is no way, contextually, that the apostles were asking, and Jesus was answering, about the end of an age tha hadn't even begun, nor did the apostles have any idea WOULD begin, when they asked about "the end of the age".

They were clearly asking, and Jesus was clearly answering, about the end of the age they were born into and living in, when they asked about it's end.

The text gives us no other option.

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No other option? Please. Give me a break. The old covenant ended at the cross at the same time the new covenant began, which was not in 70 AD. You've been told this many times and you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The handwriting of ordinances that was against us refers to the old covenant ceremonial law. Paul said Jesus "took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross". How much more clear can it be?

Jesus did not contrast this age and the age to come in the sense of the old covenant and new covenant. Instead, he contrasted this temporal age when people get married and die to the eternal age to come that will arrive when the dead are resurrected and will be when people will no longer get married or die.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

The age to come has clearly not yet arrived, which means the end of this age has not yet occurred.

One of the things that Jesus said in response to the question about His coming and the end of the age was this:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Has heaven and earth passed away yet? Clearly not. Since He taught that the end of this age would bring in the eternal age to come, it makes sense that He would relate heaven and earth passing away as marking the end of the age since that is when the new heaven and new earth will be ushered in.

TatiC said:

Hello all!

My fiancé and I are studying Revelation and are at a part in our study Bibles where the notes read:

"'The great tribulation' has been explained in several ways. Some believe this refers to the suffering of believers through the ages; others believe there is a specific time of intense tribulation yet to come."​

Pretty much my whole life I've thought of the end times to be an event that will occur in the future. As I've gotten older and have studied the Bible I can see why many people view Revelation differently.

I did some research and learned about the 4 main views:

Historicist, Preterist, Futurist, and Idealist.

I was wondering if there was anyone who didn't mind sharing their points of view. (If that's alright or allowed). No judgement whatsoever, I just really like learning about what other people think and why.

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I lean most towards the Idealist view. And I'm an Amillennialist.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I believe neither preterists nor futurists take this verse seriously enough. This verse indicates that John was to write about things that had happened in the past, things that were happening at the time he was writing the book, and things that would happen from that point on.

Clearly, Revelation 2 and 3 were addressed to seven actual first century churches in the Roman province of Asia. So, that blows the futurist view of Revelation out of the water right off the bat. To think that it goes from addressing first century churches in Revelation 2 and 3 to then not talking about anything at all that had to do with them from Revelation 4 on just makes no sense, in my opinion. Revelation was primarily addressed to those first century churches but contains things for churches throughout the world from that time to the present to heed and take into account.

Preterists assume that Revelation (up to chapter 19, at least) speaks of tribulation that occurred in Jerusalem in 70 AD. Futurists think Revelation 4-19 is all (or mostly) speaking of a great tribulation that will occur in the future and that it talks about persecution that will take place in the future.

But, Paul taught this:

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Persecution of believers has been going on since the beginning. The beast and dragon making war with God's people is not something that applies only to the past or only to the future. It is an ongoing thing. To act as if a time of great tribulation and persecution of believers is only a future event is a major insult to the many Christians who have been persecuted for the past almost 2,000 years.

As an Amillennialist, I see the thousand years as referring to the New Testament time period during which Christ has been reigning with His followers. I see Revelation as containing several recapitulations (parallels) of things occurring during the New Testament era all culminating in the glorious second coming of Christ when He will once and for all put an end to all opposition against Him and put an end to sin and death.

Spiritual Jew said:

No other option? Please. Give me a break. The old covenant ended at the cross at the same time the new covenant began, which was not in 70 AD. You've been told this many times and you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it.

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Is Gentile inclusion a necessary facet of the fulfilled New Covenant? for that did not happen until years after the Cross. If the New Covenant was truly fulfilled at the Cross, Gentiles should have been included at the Cross.
But they weren't.

One of the things that Jesus said in response to the question about His coming and the end of the age was this:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Has heaven and earth passed away yet? Clearly not. Since He taught that the end of this age would bring in the eternal age to come, it makes sense that He would relate heaven and earth passing away as marking the end of the age since that is when the new heaven and new earth will be ushered in.

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Again, the LAW of Moses was determined not to pass away before the event of Heaven and earth passing.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)

If you say this happened at the cross, you are therefore bound to profess that Heaven and earth passed at the cross.

And again, I concur with Spurgeon:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

And Again (you've likewise been told this many times but stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it) The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

We are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World, Signified by the Temple, Sacrifices and Operating Levitical priesthood, and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.

JulieB67 said:

I'm talking about the earth age in general,

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I thought we were talking about what JESUS was talking about, not what you are talking about?

It matters more what JESUS meant in HIS use of Heavens and Earth, than what we WANT it to mean, don't ya think?
Ours is to discover and affirm what Jesus meant, not to mold what He said to fit what we want it to mean.

common sense alone tells us the earth is of old, we have the fossils to prove it.

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OK. I can't disagree. We are on the Very Same earth today that God Created in genesis. It's not a Different planet than existed before the flood.

I Peter 3:6

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"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:", being overflowed with water, perished:"

II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

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I'm of the belief that there was a world age before this one as the word of God declares as Peter states. The gospels are talking about the end of this current age that we presently are in.

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World or Age?

Peter says it was a different Planet before the flood, does he not?
A planet that was destroyed by the flood and then replaced with a new one, no?

Or, If Peter's talking different Biblical Covenant ages, (which is my bet) there've been plenty of them before ours....the Adamic Covenant Age (Destroyed By Water), the Noaic Covenant Age, The Abrahamic Covenant Age, the Mosaic Covenant Age (Destroyed By Fire), and now The Christic Covenant Age, which all previous ages prefigured and dimly point to, and of course, is everlasting.

My take on Revelation:

Revelation 9 (7-11) And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Looking at the name Apollyon we know this is the Greek god Apollo. What is interesting is that he is a sun god and has a twin sister Artemis. Looking at the Assyrian, Babylonian mythos we see the equivalent to Apollo is Shamash who is a sun god and has a twin sister known as Inanna. What is interesting is that when Shamash enters the mountain of Mashu the gates are opened and closed by the Aqrabuamelu. These are scorpion men or what we see in earlier in chapter 9 of Revelation. That being said, I take a futurist view of Revelation and Revelation is much more centered around Babylonian mythology than we think. For instant, the ten kings mentioned in Revelation and Daniel the prediluvian kings in the Sumerian Kings List.

The prediluvian world the kings ruled is the world before it was flooded in Genesis 1:2. Actually Psalms 104 is really just another perspective of what happened in Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3. Here are a few side by side comparison.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalms 104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Psalms 104: (7-9) At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. 8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. 9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Genesis 1: (11-12) 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Psalms 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

A few very interesting things to notice about Psalms 104 are the mountains are in place before being covered with the deep (Psalms 104:6). The spirit renewest (made it new from and old state. the face of the earth. (Psalms 104:30 as in Genesis 1:2), and his chambers(His dwelling place and his throne. See Ezekiel 28:2 too.) is in the water (Psalms 104:3). You say God's throne in the midst of the sea, makes no sense, it would If He was a Master of the Sea, could walk on water, turn fish into bread, and had blood and water come from his side when His side when His side was pierced on the cross. He is in heaven now. Why you ask, he was slain before the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8.

Anyways the end is very connected to the beginning.

parousia70 said:

Is Gentile inclusion a necessary facet of the fulfilled New Covenant? for that did not happen until years after the Cross. If the New Covenant was truly fulfilled at the Cross, Gentiles should have been included at the Cross.
But they weren't.

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It was established at the cross by the blood of Christ. Just because the gospel was not preached until a few years after it was first preached in Israel is irrelevant. It certainly went out to the Gentiles well before 70 AD.

Again, the LAW of Moses was determined not to pass away before the event of Heaven and earth passing.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)

If you say this happened at the cross, you are therefore bound to profess that Heaven and earth passed at the cross.

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You are misinterpreting that verse. You need to read that verse in context.

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The law that Jesus was talking about here was not the old covenant and all of its ceremonial laws. Notice He said that He didn't come to abolish the law but fulfill it. He was not talking about fulfilling the ceremonial laws. That's silly. No, He was talking about the moral law there. He did not abolish the moral law, He fulfilled it and it was kept in effect through Him. Think about it. Do you really think He said what He did in verse 19 in regards to the ceremonial laws? Why would He be telling people to not set aside the ceremonial laws when scripture clearly teaches that He made the ceremonial laws obsolete by way of His death on the cross?

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The law, in the context of what Jesus was talking about, is still in effect which you can see by reading on past Matthew 5:18. It looks like you just interpreted the verse in isolation without taking the context into account. Again, He was talking about the moral law of God and not the old covenant ceremonial laws. Jesus clarified what the moral laws mean.

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Do you see how Jesus only referred to the moral law in these examples? Once again, that is what He was talking about and not about the ceremonial laws. I can't say it enough. These commandments that Jesus explained and expanded on are still in effect today and will be until heaven and earth pass away. That is what Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:18 and is what you are missing.

And again, I concur with Spurgeon:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

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Looks like Spurgeon had no idea of what he was talking about. He didn't have any more of the Holy Spirit than you or I do, so we don't need him to tell us what scripture means.

And Again (you've likewise been told this many times but stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it) The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70.

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I completely disagree. All references in scripture to the heavens and earth are to the literal heavens and earth. I showed you already the real meaning of Matthew 5:18.

That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone.

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I completely disagree. He taught that heaven and earth would pass away at His second coming just as Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13. He was not using the terms "heaven and earth" symbolically.

The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

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You are interpreting everything through your preterist lens. Paul (the likely author of Hebrews) was talking about the literal heavens and earth there. You are trying to redefine what the heavens and the earth are.

We are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World, Signified by the Temple, Sacrifices and Operating Levitical priesthood, and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.

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I completely disagree. Any time Jesus referenced heaven and earth He was referring to the literal heaven and earth. He indicated that His second coming would occur when heaven and earth pass away (Matthew 24:29-51) and that all unbelievers will be killed at His second coming (Matt 24:37-39). That lines up perfectly with what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13 which is that at Christ's second coming the heavens and the earth will be burned up and the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in at that time. That has clearly not happened yet.

ewq1938 said:

This sets the following in the end times, near the second coming and end of the world. That alone proves the events are future rather than historic.

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I notice that none of those things are in the Revelation.

And here is that same second coming of the end times. That proves futurism.

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Proves that's what you believe, anyway.

JulieB67 said:

If one takes the entire bible in context, we see that God did not create the earth without form and void. So the word "was" should be properly translated -"became" void and without form.

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What is the point of stating a beginning where God forced something with form to become without form and void. The point of the beginning was that it was a beginning without form and void. Before Genesis 1:1 there was literally nothing. Not literally something prior to the beginning, that became nothing.

If the Bible is taken in full context, there was literally nothing before Genesis 1:1. Many do not take all Scripture into consideration. Many want to interpret certain Scripture to produce the wrong point.

Timtofly said:

What is the point of stating a beginning where God forced something with form to become without form and void. The point of the beginning was that it was a beginning without form and void. Before Genesis 1:1 there was literally nothing. Not literally something prior to the beginning, that became nothing.

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The point is it became void and without form after Genesis 1:1. The point was being made was there was a prior earth age to the one we're presently living in. As Peter states the "world that was "then" perished. The heavens and earth that are "now" are preserved until Christ returns.

God specifically states he did not create the earth in vain in Isaiah. Same Hebrew word as "without form and void". He created it to be inhabited. If you want to believe he created an earth covered in water in a state of ruin, that's your choice.

Timtofly said:

If the Bible is taken in full context, there was literally nothing before Genesis 1:1. Many do not take all Scripture into consideration.

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Exactly, which is why it's so important to take the entire bible find certain truths, especially the passages in Isaiah, Jeremiah and 1st Peter. But yes, I agree, the earth was not here before Genesis 1:1.

Peter states very specifically people are willingly ignorant about how old the earth is.

The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to much… I believe the first part of Revelation is to speak to the church as she would change with time…

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning around the time of DL Moody.

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4



In Revelation 4 the focus changes from earth to heaven, indicating, I believe, that a rapture has taken place. Especially as the word churches disappears after that. My view of Revelation, then, is historical.

JulieB67 said:

The point is it became void and without form after Genesis 1:1. The point was being made was there was a prior earth age to the one we're presently living in. As Peter states the "world that was "then" perished. The heavens and earth that are "now" are preserved until Christ returns.

God specifically states he did not create the earth in vain in Isaiah. Same Hebrew word as "without form and void". He created it to be inhabited. If you want to believe he created an earth covered in water in a state of ruin, that's your choice.



Exactly, which is why it's so important to take the entire bible find certain truths, especially the passages in Isaiah, Jeremiah and 1st Peter. But yes, I agree, the earth was not here before Genesis 1:1.

Peter states very specifically people are willingly ignorant about how old the earth is.

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Peter was talking about Noah's Flood, not Genesis 1.

People are willingly ignorant to the fact the earth is only 7000 years in existence.

Timtofly said:

Peter was talking about Noah's Flood, not Genesis 1.

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Again, not one Christian is willingly ignorant about Noah's flood.

But they are willingly ignorant that by the word of God the heavens were of "old" and the earth was standing in the water and out of the water. (Gen 1)

Genesis 1 declares that the earth was covered in water after Genesis 1:1. Do you disagree to this fact? That is long before Noah's flood. The world that "was" as Peter states perished. We know that world perished, we have the fossils to prove it.

Timtofly said:

People are willingly ignorant to the fact the earth is only 7000 years in existence.

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7000 years is not old when discussing the earth age. Peter is saying that they are willingly ignorant about how old, not that it's only 7000 years old.

JulieB67 said:

Again, not one Christian is willingly ignorant about Noah's flood.

But they are willingly ignorant that by the word of God the heavens were of "old" and the earth was standing in the water and out of the water. (Gen 1)

Genesis 1 declares that the earth was covered in water after Genesis 1:1. Do you disagree to this fact? That is long before Noah's flood. The world that "was" as Peter states perished. We know that world perished, we have the fossils to prove it.

7000 years is not old when discussing the earth age. Peter is saying that they are willingly ignorant about how old, not that it's only 7000 years old.

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Peter was talking about the scoffers, not Christians. However many Christians have listened to the scoffers. Thus willingly.

All fossils came from Noah's Flood. There were no fossils prior to that judgment of God.

JulieB67 said:

Again, not one Christian is willingly ignorant about Noah's flood.

But they are willingly ignorant that by the word of God the heavens were of "old" and the earth was standing in the water and out of the water. (Gen 1)

Genesis 1 declares that the earth was covered in water after Genesis 1:1. Do you disagree to this fact? That is long before Noah's flood. The world that "was" as Peter states perished. We know that world perished, we have the fossils to prove it.



7000 years is not old when discussing the earth age. Peter is saying that they are willingly ignorant about how old, not that it's only 7000 years old.

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2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


This needs to be interpreted involving all these verses. The way these verses read to me is like such. What they are willingly ignorant of is verse 7 in light of verses 5-6. All those verses are basically involving one thought. The translators never even bothered to insert any periods in those verses until at the end of verse 7. There was water involving the earth in Genesis 1 and there was water involving the earth per Noah's flood. Noah's flood obviously involved judgment. Nowhere in Genesis 1 does it say any of that involved judgment.

Peter is originally talking about time in general in relative terms to people scoffing at the promise of his coming. That's when he goes into of detail of how old the earth really is, etc. and that people are willingly ignorant that by the word of God the heavens are of "old" and the earth was standing in and out of the water and that world perished but the world that is "now" is reserved unto the end. And that was my original point to the poster. When the disciples as for signs of his coming and the end of this world age we are talking about this one that we are presently in.

DavidPT said:

There was water involving the earth in Genesis 1 and there was water involving the earth per Noah's flood. Noah's flood obviously involved judgment. Nowhere in Genesis 1 does it say any of that involved judgment.

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That's where verses in Isaiah and Jeremiah come in. You'll see judgement came in.

God said he did not create the earth in vain. He created it to be inhabited. He did not create the earth in a ruined state covered in water. To believe so would be to not believe his words In Isaiah 45.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

The same word for vain is the very same word for void in Genesis 2.


Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." We see here the earth is covered in water. This is what Peter is talking about that by the word of God (this very verse) the earth was standing in and out of the water and that this world perished.

was
1961 hayah
hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon, altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, use.

void
922
bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:
KJV - emptiness, void.

He talks about this world in Jeremiah as well as Job (when the morning stars sang together)

Jeremiah 4:22; "For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and, lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Jeremiah 4:24; "I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

God literally shook the earth. Talk about a big bang. That's why places looked like they used to fit together on certain maps.

Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Nothing survived this earlier judgement. We know Noah and his family survived that flood. But again, we have the fossils from that earlier time.

Jeremiah 4:26; "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

But I don't have a problem if people want to believe God created the earth in vain/void and covered in water and started from there. But I don't believe that going by Isaiah, Job, Jeremiah and 2nd Peter.

I try and take the bible as a whole and search out these truths. In doing so, I've dropped alot of past beliefs, (rapture, etc) but have also been opened up to many others that I did not know.

ETA, sorry to the OP for derailing the thread.

Timtofly said:

Peter was talking about the scoffers, not Christians. However many Christians have listened to the scoffers.

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Yes, he was talking about time in general. And then goes on to describe how old the heavens and the earth really are. Meaning not much time has passed in relative terms to to how long Christ has been gone and the promise of his coming.

JulieB67 said:

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." We see here the earth is covered in water. This is what Peter is talking about that by the word of God (this very verse) the earth was standing in and out of the water and that this world perished.

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That earth perished in Noah's Flood. No earth perished in Genesis 1:1.

Having no form and void, meant just that. Then there was water.

Timtofly said:

Having no form and void, meant just that. Then there was water.

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Land was under that water.

Genesis 1:9 "And God said, "Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear:" and it was so."

This is the first time dry land appeared in this age. God didn't just separate the waters and said let "land" appear he said let the dry land appear, meaning land was here and obviously it was wet since it was covered in water. He didn't just create a bunch of water to start with. Again, he created it not void as he states in Isaiah, he created it to be inhabited.