Modern day systemic racism, does it exist?

rturner76 · Dec 2, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Do you have evidence that this is happening to the extent to explain few blacks living in trailer parks? Or are you just assuming.

Only the crazy things I have heard landlords say. Not highrise managers but private landlords.

Ken-1122 said:
If there were limited choices, they wouldn't be forcing people to live there, only a select few who want to live there would be allowed.

Trailer parks aren't public housing so......it's private property managers and people who decide to live in a trailer park. If you apply for public housing, you go to a highrise. Most of which end up being in the inner city. There are a few in the suburbs but they use many of those for the elderly and disabled.

Ken-1122 · Dec 2, 2021

RDKirk said:
There is a whole ground-swell (you've apparently missed) of annoyance from black women that the media is replacing them with bi-racial women because "good dark, light bad" is definitely not a thing with white women who are making the casting decisions.

So you can point to a bunch of movies, TV shows, and commercials that feature blond haired white women, and I can point to just as many movies, TV shows, and commercials that feature black women

Ken-1122 · Dec 2, 2021

RDKirk said:
In another thread, I took time to explain that there was a bifurcation of cultural direction that occurred with the Great Northern Migration (more accurately called the Great Urban Migration). It's visible as the difference between Malcolm X and Martin Luther King.

With the spread and popularization of electronic media post WWII, the transmission of culture in America changed from parents and grandparents to electronic media. I also explained that when electronic media discovered black people in the late 60s, the media created and imposed "ghetto" as a new surface cultural meme that became the dominant concept of "black culture," and, yes, black people who have no reason by neighborhood or parentage to have adopted any of that "ghetto" culture yet have done so because electronic media informs them of what "being black" means.

One almost has to have been there to see it happen, because it was rapid enough to see within one lifetime. Our social direction (and our BMI) was changed between the 60s and the 80s.

Before I respond to this, would you mind explaining some of the aspects of this Ghetto Culture, and point out some known black celebrities you know of that are a part of said culture? Also what of the black people who are not a part of this Ghetto culture; are they less black?

Ken-1122 · Dec 2, 2021

rturner76 said:
I was a Real Estate agent for some years and I know for a fact that people who concentrated on a particular area do in fact steer people to the neighborhood or away from the neighborhood. You can't do that. You are supposed to show them any house in the area and the price range they chose. Many leave much of the search to the agent so they assume that what the agent shows them is what is available so they don't question it. I have seen agents do it. They just have to be really slick about it. An experienced agent knows who they can steer and who is doing their own research and will notice.

Okay so you know of some racist landlords. This is an example of racism; not systemic racism.

rturner76 said:
No, but a Black American from New York has more in common with a Black American from LA than a black man from Ghana or Nigeria or South America. I didn't mean to imply that all black people are the same in America.

My point is; black people are Americans and there is no single American culture. When I grew up as a kid in California, I spent a year with my Grandma in Alabama and though the kids in Alabama looked like me, they were of a completely different culture than I was used to living in California.

rturner76 said:
Only the crazy things I have heard landlords say. Not highrise managers but private landlords.

Again; just racism not systemic racism

rturner76 said:
Trailer parks aren't public housing so......it's private property managers and people who decide to live in a trailer park. If you apply for public housing, you go to a highrise. Most of which end up being in the inner city. There are a few in the suburbs but they use many of those for the elderly and disabled.

Are you saying where you live people on section 8 are restricted to public housing? That they aren't allowed to live in affordable housing privately owned by landlords?

IWalkAlone · Dec 2, 2021

I see no evidence of systemic racism. Why does the left keep accusing America? The answer, political gain

RDKirk · Dec 2, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
So you can point to a bunch of movies, TV shows, and commercials that feature blond haired white women, and I can point to just as many movies, TV shows, and commercials that feature black women

No, you certainly can't point to "just as many." Oh, no.

Even if racism were not the determining factor, sheer demographics would dictate otherwise...unless you're including bi-racial women and other "ambiguous race" women as "black"...which is precisely the point that unambiguously black women make.

Ken-1122 · Dec 2, 2021

RDKirk said:
No, you certainly can't point to "just as many." Oh, no.

Even if racism were not the determining factor, sheer demographics would dictate otherwise...unless you're including bi-racial women and other "ambiguous race" women as "black"...which is precisely the point that unambiguously black women make.

My point was I see plenty of black women and men represented in the media and movies. When you consider the average black person in the US is only 65% subsarahan African (according to ancestory.com), the vast majority of people considered black in this country are technically bi-racial and those who are purely black are probably mostly African immigrants. But when compared to other races in the movies, (like mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, etc.)I see black people well represented in the media.

RDKirk · Dec 2, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
My point was I see plenty of black women and men represented in the media and movies. When you consider the average black person in the US is only 65% subsarahan African (according to ancestory.com), the vast majority of people considered black in this country are technically bi-racial and those who are purely black are probably mostly African immigrants. But when compared to other races in the movies, (like mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, etc.)I see black people well represented in the media.

No, your point was:

Ken-1122 said:
But with white women it is good dark, light bad. Perhaps people want more of that they don't have; dark people want to look lighter, light people want to look darker.

That point is unsubstantiated. Now you're just moving the goalpost.

Estrid · Dec 2, 2021

RDKirk said:
No, you certainly can't point to "just as many." Oh, no.

Even if racism were not the determining factor, sheer demographics would dictate otherwise...unless you're including bi-racial women and other "ambiguous race" women as "black"...which is precisely the point that unambiguously black women make.

Looks to me that the question of the op has been
thoroughly demonstrated to be a big no.

rturner76 · Dec 2, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Again; just racism not systemic racism

I believe the problem is systemic so agree to disagree.

Ken-1122 said:
Are you saying where you live people on section 8 are restricted to public housing? That they aren't allowed to live in affordable housing privately owned by landlords?

No, I'm saying it's two separate programs. Section 8 is a voucher that you can take anywhere a landlord will accept it. Highrise housing is government-owned highrise apartments that take a portion of your income like section 8 but it's state-funded, not federal. You often don't get a choice.

RDKirk · Dec 2, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Before I respond to this, would you mind explaining some of the aspects of this Ghetto Culture, and point out some known black celebrities you know of that are a part of said culture? Also what of the black people who are not a part of this Ghetto culture; are they less black?

You know I've spoken at considerable length about this, but here are some links to my past posts:

American Descendants of Slavery and Our Chit'lin' Culture

American Descendants of Slavery and Our Chit'lin' Culture

American Descendants of Slavery and Our Chit'lin' Culture

American Descendants of Slavery and Our Chit'lin' Culture

American Descendants of Slavery and Our Chit'lin' Culture

Ken-1122 · Dec 2, 2021

RDKirk said:
No, your point was:

That point is unsubstantiated. Now you're just moving the goalpost.

I said that more in retaliation to the person who made the unsubstantiated claim that with other races, they believe light is good, dark is bad. True there may be some darker people who want to lighten their skin, but there are just as many white people who want to darken their skin. Systemic Racism has nothing to do with it IMO

RDKirk · Dec 2, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
I said that more in retaliation to the person who made the unsubstantiated claim that with other races, they believe light is good, dark is bad. True there may be some darker people who want to lighten their skin, but there are just as many white people who want to darken their skin. Systemic Racism has nothing to do with it IMO

The philosopher Chris Rock once asked the white people in his audience how many would like to be him. He noted that none of the white people was willing to be him...even though he was rich.

IWalkAlone · Dec 2, 2021

RDKirk said:
The philosopher Chris Rock once asked the white people in his audience how many would like to be him. He noted that none of the white people was willing to be him...even though he was rich.

How many blacks want to be white? Talent and wealth? I might have to think about that.

coffee4u · Dec 2, 2021

RDKirk said:
The philosopher Chris Rock once asked the white people in his audience how many would like to be him. He noted that none of the white people was willing to be him...even though he was rich.

What point are you going for here? I hope this isn't some attempt to say the audience don't want to be him because they are white and he is black. Please tell me you are not assuming things about people you don't know and a situation you know nothing about.

Not wanting to be him could be for so many different reasons. Certainly some people may not want to be him because he is black but that does not mean everyone holds to that reason. Off the top of my head:

You are happy to be yourself and don't wish to be anyone else.
He's male. -No thanks. I'm female like half of his audience is probably was. They may not want to change that.
He's American - No thanks.
He's divorced 2016 -No thanks
Why? Due to infidelity and a inappropriate contentography addiction -Big Big NO thanks.
What is his faith? -Nothing is more important that your faith.
I don't know what his personality is like but saying things like "We know how black people feel about Ferguson — outraged, upset, cheated by the system, all these things."
No single person speaks for their entire community whether its a community based around race, social class, disability, religion, anything. You can only speak for yourself or others who have publicly stated they agree with you and even then there is no guarantee they will always agree with you. Added to his infidelity and inappropriate contentography addiction that does not speak well of his character. So another No.
What else does he have going for him except he is rich?

Do we even know the context around that question? Was it serious or humorous? For all we know the question was connected to his act. What if he had said he fell in the trash after tripping over a cat and who wanted to be him that night?

Really it's meaningless to bring it up.

Ken-1122 · Dec 3, 2021

RDKirk said:
The philosopher Chris Rock once asked the white people in his audience how many would like to be him. He noted that none of the white people was willing to be him...even though he was rich.

Chris Rock is not a philosopher, he is a joke! He stands in front of people and they laugh at him; and he has made a fortune doing this. Such a person should not be taken with no more than a grain of salt when it comes to political issues and real life events; I’m surprised you would actually take such a person seriously.
Chris never asked white people anything, he simply stood in front of his fans and CLAIMED white people don't want to be him.
I on the other hand asked dozens of people of all races would they choose to be another race if they could, and about half the white people said they would rather be mixed race (white/black, white/asian, etc) instead of only white; but 100% of all black people said they would remain black. if being white is so great, how come half the white folks don't wanna be white, and if being black is so oppressive and difficult, how come none of them want to be anything else? Of course I live in the Western USA, ask the people around you and see what kind of response you get.

Estrid · Dec 3, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
I said that more in retaliation to the person who made the unsubstantiated claim that with other races, they believe light is good, dark is bad. True there may be some darker people who want to lighten their skin, but there are just as many white people who want to darken their skin. Systemic Racism has nothing to do with it IMO

You need to retaliate against me?
What in my comment on Asian preference in
skin tone calls for seeking vengeance?

RDKirk · Dec 3, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Chris Rock is not a philosopher, he is a comedian. As a comedian he has said some stupid things over the years; that was one of the most stupid things he has ever said, but after all he is paid to make people laugh, not tell the truth. Chris never asked white people, he simply stood in front of his fans and CLAIMED white people don't want to be him. It would be foolish to take the word of a comedian seriously.
I on the other hand asked dozens of people of all races would they choose to be another race if they could, and about half the white people said they would rather be mixed race (white/black, white/asian, etc) instead of only white; but 100% of all black people said they would remain black. if being white is so great, how come half the white folks don't wanna be white, and if being black is so oppressive and difficult, how come none of them want to be anything else? Of course I live in the Western USA, ask the people around you and see what kind of response you get.

How many white Boomers wanted to be mixed race?

essentialsaltes · Dec 3, 2021

RDKirk: "I also explained that when electronic media discovered black people in the late 60s, the media created and imposed "ghetto" as a new surface cultural meme that became the dominant concept of "black culture," and, yes, black people who have no reason by neighborhood or parentage to have adopted any of that "ghetto" culture yet have done so because electronic media informs them of what "being black" means.

One almost has to have been there to see it happen, because it was rapid enough to see within one lifetime. Our social direction (and our BMI) was changed between the 60s and the 80s."

Ken-1122 said:
Before I respond to this, would you mind explaining some of the aspects of this Ghetto Culture, and point out some known black celebrities you know of that are a part of said culture? Also what of the black people who are not a part of this Ghetto culture; are they less black?

I don't have RDKirk's perspective on all this, but rather than focus on celebrities, I would focus on what image was part of mass entertainment's menu of black-centered productions for mass network audiences in the time period he's talking about (including little white kids like me, who watched all of this, and am still fond of a lot of it).

Fat Albert and his gang played in a junkyard.

Sanford and Son was about a man who owned... a junkyard.

Good Times - set in the projects in inner-city Chicago

What's Happening? - set in Watts

And then you have the flipside, which plays a bit on fish-out-of-water

Diffrent Strokes: After their mother dies, two black kids (from Harlem! Trifecta!) are adopted by the rich white guy who employed their mom. (What about their dad? Trick question: black children have no fathers.)

The Jeffersons: Black man gets his start from a settlement from a bus accident to start a dry-cleaning business and 'move on up' to the East Side. You can almost hear the chitlin in the theme song...

Well we're movin' on up
To the east side
To a deluxe apartment in the sky
Movin' on up
To the east side
We finally got a piece of the pie

Fish don't fry in the kitchen
Beans don't burn on the grill
Took a whole lotta tryin'
Just to get up that hill

RDKirk · Dec 3, 2021

essentialsaltes said:
RDKirk: "I also explained that when electronic media discovered black people in the late 60s, the media created and imposed "ghetto" as a new surface cultural meme that became the dominant concept of "black culture," and, yes, black people who have no reason by neighborhood or parentage to have adopted any of that "ghetto" culture yet have done so because electronic media informs them of what "being black" means.

One almost has to have been there to see it happen, because it was rapid enough to see within one lifetime. Our social direction (and our BMI) was changed between the 60s and the 80s."

I don't have RDKirk's perspective on all this, but rather than focus on celebrities, I would focus on what image was part of mass entertainment's menu of black-centered productions for mass network audiences in the time period he's talking about (including little white kids like me, who watched all of this, and am still fond of a lot of it).

Fat Albert and his gang played in a junkyard.

Sanford and Son was about a man who owned... a junkyard.

Good Times - set in the projects in inner-city Chicago

What's Happening? - set in Watts

And then you have the flipside, which plays a bit on fish-out-of-water

Diffrent Strokes: After their mother dies, two black kids (from Harlem! Trifecta!) are adopted by the rich white guy who employed their mom. (What about their dad? Trick question: black children have no fathers.)

The Jeffersons: Black man gets his start from a settlement from a bus accident to start a dry-cleaning business and 'move on up' to the East Side. You can almost hear the chitlin in the theme song...

Well we're movin' on up
To the east side
To a deluxe apartment in the sky
Movin' on up
To the east side
We finally got a piece of the pie

Fish don't fry in the kitchen
Beans don't burn on the grill
Took a whole lotta tryin'
Just to get up that hill

A major part of your example is that Fat Albert was the very first depiction of African-Americans in children's television programming. There had never been an African-American kid or adult in children's programming before then.

Your example of Good Times is controversial among blacks, because it was observed at the time that the network killed off the strong father figure to enlarge the antics of the idiot teenage son. Black audiences began to turn away from the show at that point.

That was the period of time that the tough movie private detective Shaft (essentially the first black superhero in the electronic media) was turned into the weaselly informant pimp Huggy Bear on network television.

There were a few standout exceptions of blacks in non-ghetto dramatic roles in that time...I can think of five or six offhand...but dramas weren't what the younger generation was watching, and those characters were mostly minor players (Diane Carroll as "Julia" being the only starring role).

Modern day systemic racism, does it exist?

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