Revaluations 6:9

LaLuz12

Member
Nov 29, 2021
22
10
35
PA
✟8,519.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hello all,

Again, I apologize if this is the wrong section.. but there are so many sections it’s hard to pick.

I was reading Revelations 6:9 and was very confused by the souls under the alter.

why were they not at peace? Why would they be concerned about getting vengeance? Why would they be asking for anything at all? Shouldn’t they be at rest because they died knowing that God has it all under control…

I’m so confused…
 

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,648
6,108
Massachusetts
✟583,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
why were they not at peace?
I think what "friend of" says could help to answer this question. And we see in scripture how God of Heaven can at times be very displeased with certain things . . . though He is in Heaven.

Why would they be concerned about getting vengeance?
I think desire for vengeance can be different ways.

Vengeance can be with mere desire to make an evil person suffer.

Vengeance can bring what is better so the evil is stopped or hindered.

The vengeance can in itself not cause any suffering to the evil person, but the evil person might get nasty and upset at how the victim has turned out to be blessed by God. In such a case, the evil one is under the revenge of simply missing out, though he or she is not directly made to suffer.

Why would they be asking for anything at all?
Well . . . they are under the altar . . . and might have to stay there until God brings the vengeance of the end. So, may be they would appreciate getting out from under that altar and we can all be sharing together while admiring and glorifying Jesus.

They haven't been resurrected, yet. The resurrection comes and with this the removing of evil from this earth. And once the earth is new we live on the new earth, versus being under the altar.

Now, of course, they are told to rest a little longer, right? So, perhaps God agrees with you, that they have no need to ask for anything, since they are honored to be . . . right under the altar.

On the other hand, God does plan to have vengeance and to have us on the new earth; so it is fine to pray for what is God's will.

So, I would say we all could have more to learn about this. I am only offering a few things that come to mind.

Shouldn’t they be at rest because they died knowing that God has it all under control…
Well . . . yes . . . they are told to rest, aren't they? So, may be Heaven agrees with you! :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,648
6,108
Massachusetts
✟583,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
My thing is.. aren’t they showing concern for things of earth and they are in heaven? But while you’re on earth you are to show concern for the things on heaven… I can go on and on.. lol I guess I need to sit on that idea for a while.
God Himself cares about what's in Heaven and He cares about what is going on on this earth.

Consider how Jesus was in Heaven itself, but Jesus cared about us enough to come here to save us so we may share with Him in heavenly love and goodness.

Yes, God's word says to think on things above. But above there is compassion for ones here on earth! Plus, God's will is from Heaven, even if it has to do with what God does on earth.

So, mainly God's word means to seek what is above. But yes do care about things down here . . . but with wisdom from above > James 3:17.

"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy." (James 3:17)

Oh yes, and God's word says that "godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come." (in 1 Timothy 4:8)

So, yes we need to seek what is above, which is godliness; but this godliness . . . like how God cares about things down here . . . will have us caring about God and His good in Heaven and also about what's going on here.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Hello all,

Again, I apologize if this is the wrong section.. but there are so many sections it’s hard to pick.

I was reading Revelations 6:9 and was very confused by the souls under the alter.

why were they not at peace? Why would they be concerned about getting vengeance? Why would they be asking for anything at all? Shouldn’t they be at rest because they died knowing that God has it all under control…

I’m so confused…

Kindred to this ...

Genesis 4:10
"What have you done?" replied the LORD. "The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground.

John was in vision and He saw all those
that were slain for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

They are crying out for justice.

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest (in the grave) a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

More martyrs to come.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Hello all,

Again, I apologize if this is the wrong section.. but there are so many sections it’s hard to pick.

I was reading Revelations 6:9 and was very confused by the souls under the alter.

why were they not at peace? Why would they be concerned about getting vengeance? Why would they be asking for anything at all? Shouldn’t they be at rest because they died knowing that God has it all under control…

I think the issue is the assumption that the dead are content and have no worries about what happens on the Earth. Clearly the dead are concerned about their brethren on the Earth and are upset that the enemy is still harming members of the Church. Sure they know God has it under control but they still have emotions and are still imperfect beings even when in a non-bodily form.
 
Upvote 0

LaLuz12

Member
Nov 29, 2021
22
10
35
PA
✟8,519.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think the issue is the assumption that the dead are content and have no worries about what happens on the Earth. Clearly the dead are concerned about their brethren on the Earth and are upset that the enemy is still harming members of the Church. Sure they know God has it under control but they still have emotions and are still imperfect beings even when in a non-bodily form.

So do you mean that we can expect to be imperfect even after we rejoin with Christ? Then why do people say there’s no more suffering in heaven?
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
So do you mean that we can expect to be imperfect even after we rejoin with Christ?

Yes. Look to the resurrection and rapture and the receiving of immortal bodies for imperfection.




Then why do people say there’s no more suffering in heaven?

The no more suffering language is found in the eternity chapter of Revelation and people and God the Father and Son will be living on the Earth not in heaven.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
So even after we are separated from our earthly bodies we will have the same kind of issues that are tied to them?… like the desire for vengeance? Hmm..

Well, the souls in the 5th seal simply ask when God will avenge their deaths and God tells them more have to die as they did before that will happen.


Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
Upvote 0

Bob_1000

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2021
613
129
53
Mid-West
✟20,776.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hello all,

Again, I apologize if this is the wrong section.. but there are so many sections it’s hard to pick.

I was reading Revelations 6:9 and was very confused by the souls under the alter.

why were they not at peace? Why would they be concerned about getting vengeance? Why would they be asking for anything at all? Shouldn’t they be at rest because they died knowing that God has it all under control…

I’m so confused…
The altar was the cross where the blood of the Lamb was shed. Those under the altar were those Old Testament believers who were literally underneath the cross in the “heart of the earth” aka Abraham’s bosom.

I don’t know why they were concerned with vengeance but the important part of that story is that the day this happened is the day they put on the righteousness of Christ aka white robes. All of that happened the day Jesus died on the cross.
 
Upvote 0

jamiec

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2020
474
215
Scotland
✟42,255.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Hello all,

Again, I apologize if this is the wrong section.. but there are so many sections it’s hard to pick.

I was reading Revelations 6:9 and was very confused by the souls under the alter.

why were they not at peace? Why would they be concerned about getting vengeance? Why would they be asking for anything at all? Shouldn’t they be at rest because they died knowing that God has it all under control…

I’m so confused…

Why "under the altar" ?

IMO, the passage is referring to the bronze altar described in Exodus 27.1-8 & 38.1-7. The bronze altar, like the ark of the covenant, was portable, and was carried with staves. It, or one like it, was present in the Temple built by Solomon.

I think the reason describing the "souls" as "under the altar" may be, to emphasise their God-given security from evil, to compare & contrast them with their "brethren" on Earth, who must still face persecution. Their unity with their brethren on Earth is shown by their prayer. The white garments given to them remind the hearer or reader that these souls are martyrs, like Antipas referred to earlier. The whiteness of the garments is a symbol of their holiness & purity & blamelessness, & so, of their fitness to worship God & to near to Him. Bearing witness to God, including witnessing to Christ by suffering death for Him, is a recurrent motif in Rev. John is himself a witness to Christ - that is why he is on Patmos - and the 7 letters are addressed to possible martyrs-to-be.

The psychology of the "souls under the altar" is not the point; The book is not concerned with psychological realism - apocalyptic writings, of which Rev is one, are not concerned with that. Psychology plays a part in books that are set in the everyday world, so we have plenty of psychology, observation of motives, analysis of why people act as they do, in the accounts of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Judah, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, the Judges, Samuel, Saul, Jonathan, David, Solomon, & several of the Prophets.

Rev is not that kind of book. Like a great deal of apocalyptic writing, it is concerned with

"justify[ing] the ways of God to man"

- with facing questions such as "Why does God allow this ?". As is Job, as are many of the Psalms, as are large stretches of the Prophets. These books are not concerned with case studies in the psychology of individuals, such as we find in the Book of Jeremiah, which shows us Jeremiah's self-doubt, anguish, doubts, frustration, uncertainties, suffering of persecution, & lack of success. Instead of looking at the psychology of characters in Rev, it is more helpful to ask, "What is the function of this character in Rev ?" Instead of concerning itself with human psychology, apocalyptic writing seeks to discover why God acts as He does, and (as a consequence of what God does) how that is fair, both to His People, and, to their oppressors.

They want their blood to be avenged upon those who dwell upon the Earth (IOW, upon those who are the objects of God's wrath and judgement), not out of any motive of vindictiveness and bloodthirstiness, but because they want gods righteous judgement to be done upon Earth. It is certain that God's wrath will come upon sinners, as the Gospel warns. So, as the souls under the altar are in heaven with God, they long for God's judgement to be done. There is no doubt that God's will is going to be done, so they want it to be done and long for it to be done.

So the "souls under the altar" have several functions:

1. as point-of-view characters, expressing the longing of the persecuted Church on Earth for God to avenge their blood;

2. as POV characters expressing the longing of the Church on Earth for God's "Kingdom [to] come, on Earth, as it is in Heaven", a longing which is fulfilled in Rev 20;

3. as souls who, like John & his hearers, have to wait for the coming of the Messiah (and, with Him, of His Kingdom). His Coming is certain, therefore, so, is the Coming of the Kingdom - but it is "not yet"; and in the meantime, satan and the powers seemingly subject to him appear to have it all their own way, as per Rev 12-13. The relevance of this to Christians in China & other countries is obvious.

4. as holy and pure souls, "made perfect" in Christ, who can therefore be close to Him, and "dwell in the house of the Lord for ever" - He, of course, being that house.

5. as souls who pray for God's Will and Purpose to be done - which is exactly how the Church on Earth is taught by Christ to pray.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Learning & Growing

Active Member
Jan 13, 2022
35
49
USA
✟27,298.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
God Himself cares about what's in Heaven and He cares about what is going on on this earth.

Consider how Jesus was in Heaven itself, but Jesus cared about us enough to come here to save us so we may share with Him in heavenly love and goodness.

Yes, God's word says to think on things above. But above there is compassion for ones here on earth! Plus, God's will is from Heaven, even if it has to do with what God does on earth.

So, mainly God's word means to seek what is above. But yes do care about things down here . . . but with wisdom from above > James 3:17.

"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy." (James 3:17)

Oh yes, and God's word says that "godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come." (in 1 Timothy 4:8)

So, yes we need to seek what is above, which is godliness; but this godliness . . . like how God cares about things down here . . . will have us caring about God and His good in Heaven and also about what's going on here.
I just keep thinking about Jesus cursing the fig tree... and can't quite reconcile it all. How could Jesus be so angry with a single tree yet also say that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed that grows and becomes a big tree. There's so much here... sorry I'm just rattling on with too many things and not really addressing what this thread was wrestling with. Sorry LOL :)
 
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,648
6,108
Massachusetts
✟583,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
How could Jesus be so angry with a single tree yet also say that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed that grows and becomes a big tree.
You are asking why Jesus could curse a fig tree, while >
why were they not at peace? Why would they be concerned about getting vengeance? Why would they be asking for anything at all? Shouldn’t they be at rest because they died knowing that God has it all under control…
So, Jesus is judging a tree and the souls are calling for vengeance. So, they maybe are doing a similar thing > both the cursing and the vengeance can remove what is wrong in order to make way for something better > fruitful love trees and ones living in God's love on the new earth.

So, I consider your question is indeed related with LaLuz's concern.

My opinion is that Jesus curses the fig tree as an illustration of how God will not be pleased with people who do not bear fruit. If ones are not fruitful, this means they have not been loving, not preparing for the loving in Heaven and on the new earth. And so, they will need to be removed to elsewhere.

And I think this can relate to what the souls under the altar really are concerned about. They do not only desire revenge. But God's vengeance will remove the ones who have been anti-love, so that now there can be all which is of Heaven and the new earth . . . instead of evil people going on and on getting attention while they continue to ruin things on this earth.

Jesus shows how what He speaks will happen > the fig tree does dry up. And so, likewise, all He speaks during the day of judgment will happen . . . all with the result that what is unproductive and evil will be removed and only loving will remain and be getting attention.

And I now think of this > all judgment has been committed to Jesus >

"'For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,'" (John 5:22)

He speaks, and the fig tree dries up; He speaks judgment, and it is done. So, you can see how the souls under the altar are not cheering for ones on this earth, but they know who to call to, for results! :)
 
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

I'm back
Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,210
8,688
55
USA
✟676,606.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hello all,

Again, I apologize if this is the wrong section.. but there are so many sections it’s hard to pick.

I was reading Revelations 6:9 and was very confused by the souls under the alter.

why were they not at peace? Why would they be concerned about getting vengeance? Why would they be asking for anything at all? Shouldn’t they be at rest because they died knowing that God has it all under control…

I’m so confused…

I believe we should examine more fully the verse. First, this entire alter reference here in Revelation is reminiscent of the alter of burnt offerings in the old testament.

We see in Exodus 29:12 and Leviticus 4:18 that the blood of the sacrifices would be thrown against the base of the altar, which I'm seeing as the souls "beneath the alter"

Why? Because of Genesis 4:10 The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground."

Basically, this is God's sense of justice to "hear" the blood unjustly spilt cry out for justice...

It is the same view in revelation. Gods justice must be served after His Mercy is complete. The slain must be given justice for the holocaust that was done. (Holocaust means burnt offering).

So it's not that the saved children of God aren't having total peace in heaven, it's God's sense of justice pictured here, and Him saying this isn't yet My justice on display, for that more time will pass.

This passage is to all of us who will hear God's Words through John the Revelator, we can have peace that whatever we must suffer here in this life will be avenged with God's perfect justice, a justice just as perfect as His Mercy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Benjamin Müller

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2018
622
447
Western New York
✟43,598.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Revelation 6:9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?” Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Well, I believe that when you die, you die. You're dead. You're not going to heaven, but rather that you wait for the resurrection so I will interpret according to my beliefs.

These are souls of the saints who were killed for the Word of God. The altar was where the sacrifices were held in the Old Testament, and so these saints being under the altar had sacrificed their lives for the Word of God. It wasn't they, themselves, crying out, but their blood was crying out.

Each of them received a white robe which symbolizes conversion, sainthood, eternal life. They had received their reward, so to speak. And they would rest, sleep in the earth, until all things be fulfilled.

Genesis 4:10 "And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground."

Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Numbers 35:33 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.”

The final verse is where the vengeance plays is. The land cannot be cleansed until the blood of the evil men which had sent them to their deaths was also shed.

God says 'Vengeance is mine I will repay'.

Revelation 19:2 "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Randy777

Well-Known Member
Oct 18, 2017
1,174
312
Atlanta
✟91,969.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hello all,

Again, I apologize if this is the wrong section.. but there are so many sections it’s hard to pick.

I was reading Revelations 6:9 and was very confused by the souls under the alter.

why were they not at peace? Why would they be concerned about getting vengeance? Why would they be asking for anything at all? Shouldn’t they be at rest because they died knowing that God has it all under control…

I’m so confused…
Since they all cried out together with the same words that suggests they were prompted for the testimony given as their testimony coincides with the opening of the 5th seal. I think they were/are comforted by God. Who could take that away from them as they were faithful servants of God and in Gods hands?
 
Upvote 0