America Without Abortion

Nick Moser

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Of all the forms of divination condemned by the Church and rejected by our natural faculties of reason, logomancy is the most obviously absurd. Hobbes, the wittiest of English philosophers, tells us that words “are wise men’s counters, they do but reckon by them: but they are the money of fools.”
This is more or less my attitude toward listening to oral argument before the Supreme Court. Of course I would like to convince myself, on the basis of a seemingly trenchant line of questioning, a rhetorical flourish, or even a stray word from one of the justices, that the kritarchy is about to obviate Roe v. Wade. I also like to imagine, in my more whimsical moments, that one day the Nine will throw aside Griswold and discover in the inchoate intentions of our Founders a common law right to tobacco production and consumption. A man can dream.
All of which is to say that rather than sift through the entrails of today’s arguments in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, much less issue a prediction about the ultimate fate of Roe, I would like to make a few observations about the pro-life movement. There are certain facts that it seems unwilling to face.
The most significant of these is the reality of what we are up against. A world in which abortion is outlawed is not one that is very much like our own minus the (as many respectable anti-abortion activists would have it) invisible heap of baby corpses somewhere over the horizon. This is one of the many reasons I take issue with arguments like this one, which, among other things, attempts to justify anti-abortion legislation on the grounds that it would not meaningfully reduce the incidence of women in the workplace. Is that true? Can one say so reliably? Suppose it did reduce the number of women thus employed by 10 or 50 or 90 percent. Is there, for any sincere opponent of abortion, some hypothetical female unemployment threshold beyond which it would be unacceptable to find ourselves, even if it meant the proscription of child murder? If not, why make the case? The mind reels.
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America Without Abortion - The American Conservative
 

miamited

Ted
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Hi @Nick Moser

America has outlawed abortion before and may well do so again. That won't stop abortion any more than outlawing drugs stops drug addiction and use.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Nick Moser

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Hi @Nick Moser

America has outlawed abortion before and may well do so again. That won't stop abortion any more than outlawing drugs stops drug addiction and use.

God bless,
Ted
I hope so. Sadly Abortion has always existed(which is why urban legends like Water-Babys exist) but it should never be state-sanctioned and has only gotten worst since the state legalize killing a child.
 
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pescador

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What is so difficult about understanding that an abortion is sometimes necessary? There are fetal anomalies that insure that fetus/baby will not be able to survive on its own, often even for a few minutes. And there are also conditions that threaten the life of the mother if she carries the baby to full term. And of course this isn't addressing the issue of rape and incest, and the effect it will have on the mother for the rest of her life.

The main issue is that it is not up to the governments -- federal and local -- to interfere in the decision to abort a fetus. Like every other procedure, it must be a decision made by the woman and her physician and/or midwife.
 
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No abortion in necessary.

I assume you mean that no abortion is necessary. All that shows is that you don't understand that sometimes an abortion is absolutely, medical necessary. How would you deal with a fetus that has no lungs?
 
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Lost4words

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I assume you mean that no abortion is necessary. All that shows is that you don't understand that sometimes an abortion is absolutely, medical necessary. How would you deal with a fetus that has no lungs?

Let God's will be done.
 
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com7fy8

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For some time, the United States has had abortion outlawed; so if you know how things were during that time, this could give you some idea of how now things would be, if abortion outlawed. Among other items, ones would find ways to kill their unborn, if they chose to try to.

I suspect that we have politicians who speak against abortion . . . but in order to maintain a bloc of votes of people who are against abortion. What I would say to this possibility is, let's see you do things to help ladies who decide to keep their babies but they need support. And if you do this, now . . . already . . . this might help to cut down on abortions.

But in case politicians are fighting abortion, but they do not help mothers who decide not to have abortions . . . :sigh: - - I think you should care about the women who keep their children.
 
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Petros2015

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Suppose it did reduce the number of women thus employed by 10 or 50 or 90 percent.

... because they were too busy being employed as mothers... ?
... or because they were jailed for having an abortion ... ?

Hmm.

I guess if I didn't want women in the workplace, this would be a win-win.

I think it's also going to be a win-win-win for people who like to build jails sadly.
For the women who have them, the bootleg doctors who give them and then ultimately the children who grow up in largely fatherless families with mothers who didn't want them. That won't be every kid, but it's going to be a large number of them.

If I were an outsider to the issue I would probably advise building an infrastructure to support what the outcome will be.

The most significant of these is the reality of what we are up against. A world in which abortion is outlawed is not one that is very much like our own minus the (as many respectable anti-abortion activists would have it) invisible heap of baby corpses somewhere over the horizon.

Correct - but it will be somewhat like your own with a very visible heap of live babies whose mothers didn't want them, many of whom can't support them, in the hospitals, and then (if they didn't have gross defects) on the streets and then the courts and then the jails.

If you limit the abortion by 5% you are going to need to ramp abstinence, social support, foster care, voluntary contraception, possibly some form of age-limited involuntary contraception for youth under 20 (I know how everyone loves that idea lol perhaps Gates and Fauci can help?), adoption, education and jails by 5%* (balance that however you like and, more importantly, however you can) just to hold status quo, which (btw) isn't very good and people get very very upset about and blame everyone else if they feel it's getting worse.

So... by what % are you planning to eliminate abortion...?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I just think you might be trying to clean the outside of the cup and leaving the kids to drink the inside.
===

*somewhat amusingly, from the outsider's perspective, an increase in homosexuality is also an effective form of contraception (and possibly might be an unintended side-effect of a post abortion world), but I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume it's not on the table for the pro-life balancing agenda.

**and as an amusing addendum, many homosexual couples have an actual desire for adoption or fostering and the inability to create a child on their own. I'm wondering if the pro-life conservative movement has an equal or greater desire and if not, did they fully factor this into their math...?
 
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timf

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A nation is judged by the innocent blood that it spills.

Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Surgical abortions have accumulated a debit for us of 65 million. However, as the amount of hormones in birth control pills decrease, the primary function of the pill is not the prevention of ovulation, but the thicker mucousal lining of the uterus to prevent the implantation of the embryo.

We are many more millions of abortions than people generally think.

The cup of our iniquity may be approaching full.
 
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pescador

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A nation is judged by the innocent blood that it spills.

Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Surgical abortions have accumulated a debit for us of 65 million. However, as the amount of hormones in birth control pills decrease, the primary function of the pill is not the prevention of ovulation, but the thicker mucousal lining of the uterus to prevent the implantation of the embryo.

We are many more millions of abortions than people generally think.

The cup of our iniquity may be approaching full.

What is your basis for saying that there are many more millions of abortions than people generally think?
 
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What do you think happens to an embryo that is unable to implant into the wall of a uterus?

Embryos don't "implant into the wall of a uterus", a blastocyst does. The blastocyst is a structure formed in the early development of mammals. It possesses an inner cell mass which subsequently forms the embryo. If a blastocyst is unable to implant into the wall of a uterus it just "passes on through".

This information came directly from my wonderful wife who was a certified nurse-midwife (CNM) for decades.
 
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timf

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I don't understand what you are trying to say. By adding more detail about the process are you just trying to show off, add clarity, declare that the embryo is not human, or what? If you get hung up on the word embryo consider the word human instead.

What I was saying was the the primary mode of function for modern oral contraceptives is that by creating an environment (more mucus) that interferes with implantation, a human life is extinguished.

Given the pervasive use of these chemicals, it would not be unreasonable to consider that while surgical abortion has killed millions, this process of chemical abortion may have killed billions.

You asked for clarification.
 
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Am I just trying to show off, add clarity, declare that the embryo is not human? No, I am speaking about reality. Again, embryos don't "implant into the wall of a uterus", a blastocyst does. The blastocyst is a structure formed in the early development of mammals. It possesses an inner cell mass which subsequently forms the embryo. If a blastocyst is unable to implant into the wall of a uterus it just "passes on through".

You're playing with semantics, trying to say that a blastocyst, a fetus, and a baby are the same. They're not.

Would you say that when a woman uses birth control, she is committing murder? You're trying to put everything under the umbrella of children being murdered but it doesn't work.

Many abortions are necessary for sound medical reasons: the fetus has no chance of surviving outside the womb and/or the mother's life is in danger. It's a reality, so face it!
 
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