Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

parousia70 · Dec 2, 2021

Timtofly said:
Can you point out the end of all things has already happened? The end of computers has not, as we are still posting our thoughts back and forth.

Why do I need to?
And what does computers have to do with it?
You claimed the end of all things is contextual.
You yourself freely admit the end of all things doesn’t literally mean the end of ALL things.

On that, we agree.

grafted branch · Dec 2, 2021

Timtofly said:
Overcome has too many connotations to be held to the same meaning in every instance.

The only humans overcome in Revelation 13:7 are the 144k. They retreat to Mt. Zion during the 42 months. The only 2 witnesses face Satan during those 42 months. The 2 witnesses are overcome at the end and their bodies lay dead in the street of Jerusalem for 3.5 days. Then resurrected and taken to heaven.

In Revelation 11:7 it says the 2 witnesses are overcome and killed. The word “overcome “ doesn’t mean to kill in this case else Revelation 11:7 says they shall be killed and killed; this wouldn’t make sense. How are you interpreting the word overcome?

Timtofly said:
In both cases overcome does not mean they stopped being redeemed. The 144k did not even die. They were sealed not to die. They left the earth, because the 2 witnesses took over.

I completely agree that salvation can’t be lost . I was trying to point out that those who do believe salvation can be lost can interpret the word “overcome” as believers losing their salvation.

grafted branch · Dec 2, 2021

Timtofly said:
Not a good analogy to claim Revelation 13 is in the past. It cannot work in any time frame period, if that is your point. How can it be true in the past, but not true in the future? If you claim it cannot be true in the future, then it cannot be true in the past either. Time has nothing to do with it being true or not.

Satan has never had 42 months rule that was utter desolation. No one ever recorded even meeting Satan and lived to tell about it. Those future 42 months has Satan literally physically in control in Jerusalem. All humanity knows it as it happens. Not some past historical cover up.

I think the word “saint” in Revelation 13:7 is referring to national Israel. Looking at verses such as Deuteronomy 14:2 would suggest that the entire nation (both the saved and unsaved) was considered as being set apart by God.

The word saint <40> means set apart by God, holy, sacred.

The reason Revelation 13 can’t be future for those who think OSAS is that New Testament saints can’t ever be overcome. In Revelation chapters 2 and 3 every church is told, in various ways, that if they overcome they will be saved.

So if true believers are being overcome in Revelation 13 then you have Satan overcoming believers while simultaneously believers overcome Satan. This simply doesn’t make sense.

DavidPT · Dec 2, 2021

grafted branch said:
So my next question is this, when we see the word “saints” in Revelation 13:7, would you say that this word is being used in a similar way?

Can “saints “be referring to a group of people that comprise both believers and unbelievers?

The reason I ask is because they are overcome by the beast but according to Revelation 12:11 they can overcome by the blood of the Lamb. So to me it would appear that some saints can indeed overcome the beast while apparently some saints will be overcome by the beast.

This seems similar to the statement they are not all Israel who are of Israel. What are your thoughts on this?

IMO, you are looking at some of this wrong. They are allowed to be overcome by the beast in order to test them to see if they can overcome the beast while being overcome by the beast. To pass the test means to not worship the beast regardless what degree the beast is overcoming them at the time. To fail the test means to worship the beast, thus give up and find an easier way to deal with things. Simply worship the beast and these problems go away. But for how long, though? Until God starts executing His vials of wrath on those that have chosen to take the easier way about things by worshiping the beast rather than not worshiping the beast.

This is yet another reason why the beast can't be out of the pit until in the end of this age. The vials of wrath pertain to those worshiping the beast. For example, if someone was worshiping this same beast 200 years ago, 300 years ago, or even 100 years ago, how can the vials of wrath be poured out on them as well if they are all already long dead and gone and that the vials of wrath are future still?

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

How can one apply this multiple times to different time periods?

grafted branch · Dec 2, 2021

DavidPT said:
IMO, you are looking at some of this wrong. They are allowed to be overcome by the beast in order to test them to see if they can overcome the beast while being overcome by the beast. To pass the test means to not worship the beast regardless what degree the beast is overcoming them at the time. To fail the test means to worship the beast, thus give up and find an easier way to deal with things. Simply worship the beast and these problems go away. But for how long, though? Until God starts executing His vials of wrath on those that have chosen to take the easier way about things by worshiping the beast rather than not worshiping the beast.

This is yet another reason why the beast can't be out of the pit until in the end of this age. The vials of wrath pertain to those worshiping the beast. For example, if someone was worshiping this same beast 200 years ago, 300 years ago, or even 100 years ago, how can the vials of wrath be poured out on them as well if they are all already long dead and gone and that the vials of wrath are future still?

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

How can one apply this multiple times to different time periods?

Every instance of the word “overcome” in Revelation is the same Greek word <3528>. The definition according to Strong’s is to conquer, prevail.

It just doesn’t make sense to me that true believers prevail against the beast while the beast prevails against the believers.

Do you have a different definition of “overcome”?

DavidPT · Dec 2, 2021

grafted branch said:
Every instance of the word “overcome” in Revelation is the same Greek word <3528>. The definition according to Strong’s is to conquer, prevail.

It just doesn’t make sense to me that true believers prevail against the beast while the beast prevails against the believers.

Do you have a different definition of “overcome”?

Even though the beast prevails against the saints by having them put to death because they refuse to worship it, this means that they have overcome the beast because they allowed it to overcome them the same way Christ allowed those to overcome Him by nailing Him to the cross, yet, Christ still overcame them, regardless. It's all about what it means in the end. In the end those that don't worship the beast have overcome the beast. It even says so in this verse below.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

The Greek word for victory in this verse is nikao.

It means this...

from nikh - nike 3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively):--conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.

Isn't that the same Greek word you are referring to?

parousia70 · Dec 2, 2021

DavidPT said:
For example, if someone was worshiping this same beast 200 years ago, 300 years ago, or even 100 years ago, how can the vials of wrath be poured out on them as well if they are all already long dead and gone and that the vials of wrath are future still?

...How can one apply this multiple times to different time periods?

I don't know how one can remain a futurist when appealing to this logic.

As you correctly point out, The same event can't take place multiple times in multiple different time periods.

How could Jesus Come as a thief upon those at Sardis who did not watch (Revelation 3:3) and also Come as a thief in our future?

grafted branch · Dec 2, 2021

DavidPT said:
Even though the beast prevails against the saints by having them put to death because they refuse to worship it, this means that they have overcome the beast because they allowed it to overcome them the same way Christ allowed those to overcome Him by nailing Him to the cross, yet, Christ still overcame them, regardless. It's all about what it means in the end. In the end those that don't worship the beast have overcome the beast. It even says so in this verse below.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

The Greek word for victory in this verse is nikao.

It means this...

from nikh - nike 3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively):--conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.

Isn't that the same Greek word you are referring to?

Exactly, the beast never got the victory over those seen standing on the sea of glass.

Revelation 13:7 states it was given unto the beast to overcome them. Should we draw the conclusion that the beast didn’t exercise his power on some of the saints?

Revelation 11:7 the beast that comes out of the pit does overcome the 2 witnesses. Regardless of that overcoming they are raise to their feet and the Spirit of life enters into them in Revelation 11:11. However the 2 witnesses died in the condition of being overcome.

If you believe salvation can be lost, I can understand how these verse can make sense to a premil. However if someone believes in OSAS then these verses, in my opinion, have to have already taken place against national Israel.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 2, 2021

grafted branch said:
Every instance of the word “overcome” in Revelation is the same Greek word <3528>. The definition according to Strong’s is to conquer, prevail.

It just doesn’t make sense to me that true believers prevail against the beast while the beast prevails against the believers.

Do you have a different definition of “overcome”?

The context is different in each case as I've tried to tell you before. In the case of believers it's talking about them spiritually overcoming the beast. In the case of the beast making war with the saints and overcoming them it's talking about the beast physically overcoming the saints. Why you can't understand this is beyond me.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 2, 2021

parousia70 said:
I don't know how one can remain a futurist when appealing to this logic.

As you correctly point out, The same event can't take place multiple times in multiple different time periods.

How could Jesus Come as a thief upon those at Sardis who did not watch (Revelation 3:3) and also Come as a thief in our future?

It really is a wonder to me that you're not a full preterist with the way you talk. You don't believe He will come as a thief in the future and destroy His enemies at that time? What exactly do you think will happen when He comes in the future?

DavidPT · Dec 2, 2021

parousia70 said:
I don't know how one can remain a futurist when appealing to this logic.

As you correctly point out, The same event can't take place multiple times in multiple different time periods.

How could Jesus Come as a thief upon those at Sardis who did not watch (Revelation 3:3) and also Come as a thief in our future?

What makes one a futurist in this regard is the fact none of the vials have even been poured out yet. But if they already have, it would be silly to apply this to the future if it already happened in the past. I grasp your point. But unless you or someone else can undeniably prove the vials of wrath have already been poured it, it makes zero sense to not be a futurist in that case.

This is also why the 42 month reign of the beast can't be spanning hundreds of years like some might tend to think. Because if so, we are then back to how the first vial can be poured out on different ppl not even living in the same time period?

DavidPT · Dec 2, 2021

grafted branch said:
Exactly, the beast never got the victory over those seen standing on the sea of glass.

Revelation 13:7 states it was given unto the beast to overcome them. Should we draw the conclusion that the beast didn’t exercise his power on some of the saints?

Revelation 11:7 the beast that comes out of the pit does overcome the 2 witnesses. Regardless of that overcoming they are raise to their feet and the Spirit of life enters into them in Revelation 11:11. However the 2 witnesses died in the condition of being overcome.

If you believe salvation can be lost, I can understand how these verse can make sense to a premil. However if someone believes in OSAS then these verses, in my opinion, have to have already taken place against national Israel.

Believing one's salvation can be lost is not just a Premil thing, it's also an Amil thing as well. There are Premils who believe in OSAS and there are Premils that believe in NOSAS. There are Amils who believe in OSAS and there are Amils that believe in NOSAS. As to me, my position is NOSAS. Both OSAS and NOSAS are compatible with Premil. Only OSAS is compatible with Amil. NOSAS certainly isn't. Yet, there are Amils that believe in NOSAS, regardless.

grafted branch · Dec 2, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
The context is different in each case as I've tried to tell you before. In the case of believers it's talking about them spiritually overcoming the beast. In the case of the beast making war with the saints and overcoming them it's talking about the beast physically overcoming the saints. Why you can't understand this is beyond me.

And I can’t understand why you can’t see that believers being physically killed isn’t considered being overcome, it’s the opposite, it magnifies Christ. In Philippians 1:20 it states that Christ will be magnified in Paul’s body whether it be by life or death.

Would you want you head stone to read “Spiritual Jew was overcome by Satan”? I don’t know of anyone who truly believes that Christians are overcome by death, Christ took care of that problem at the cross.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 2, 2021

grafted branch said:
And I can’t understand why you can’t see that believers being physically killed isn’t considered being overcome, it’s the opposite, it magnifies Christ.

Being overcome physically is an entirely different thing than being overcome spiritually.

In Philippians 1:20 it states that Christ will be magnified in Paul’s body whether it be by life or death.

Would you want you head stone to read “Spiritual Jew was overcome by Satan”? I don’t know of anyone who truly believes that Christians are overcome by death, Christ took care of that problem at the cross.

Ridiculous question which makes me wonder if you're actually reading what I'm saying. For some reason you're acting as if the word "overcome" can only apply to being spiritually overcome. That is simply not the case.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 2, 2021

DavidPT said:
Believing one's salvation can be lost is not just a Premil thing, it's also an Amil thing as well. There are Premils who believe in OSAS and there are Premils that believe in NOSAS. There are Amils who believe in OSAS and there are Amils that believe in NOSAS. As to me, my position is NOSAS. Both OSAS and NOSAS are compatible with Premil. Only OSAS is compatible with Amil. NOSAS certainly isn't. Yet, there are Amils that believe in NOSAS, regardless.

Nonsense alert. Every time you bring this up I'm going to give you a hard time about it because you're the only one who ever tries to make the argument that NOSAS is incompatible with Amil. It absolutely is compatible with Amil and I have showed how. You just choose to ignore my explanation.

It should tell you something that you're the only one who tries to make the argument that NOSAS is incompatible with Amil. That is becaues it's not a valid argument. Otherwise, more than one person would try to make it. It's a ridiculous claim and shows your lack of understanding of what Amils actually believe. It is absolutely not true that only OSAS is compatible with Amil. If you actually understood what Amils believe (you don't, even after all these years because you don't even try to look at things from our perspective) then you wouldn't make that argument.

parousia70 · Dec 2, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
It really is a wonder to me that you're not a full preterist with the way you talk. You don't believe He will come as a thief in the future and destroy His enemies at that time?

There is only ONE Coming of Christ as a thief prophesied in scripture, and it was promised to befall actual living, breathing, blood pumping, First Century peoples. (Revelation 3:3)

It is NOT an event that happens again and again.

What exactly do you think will happen when He comes in the future?

I have no idea. I don't even pretend to know.
The timing and details of that event have not been reveled to men (Deuteronomy 29:29)
I have no reason to even speculate. Such is not my charge in this life. My Charge is to Subdue Kindgoms and Establish Righteousness like the Hebrews 11 Heroes before me. And we cannot fail (Matthew 16:18)

There has not been even one single end time prognosticator since the 1st century that has been correct in their "Last Days" predictions. All have failed.
Every. Last. One.
Why would I want to hang my hat with that lot?

Just Like the 1900+ years of Christians who have come and gone before me, odds are, I will draw my final breath long before that event comes to pass, so any speculating, guessing, hand wringing or fretting about it would only serve as a distraction from my comission stated above.

I've witnessed the destruction such distraction can bring about in our world, and I will take no part in it.

parousia70 · Dec 2, 2021

DavidPT said:
What makes one a futurist in this regard is the fact none of the vials have even been poured out yet. But if they already have, it would be silly to apply this to the future if it already happened in the past. I grasp your point. But unless you or someone else can undeniably prove the vials of wrath have already been poured it, it makes zero sense to not be a futurist in that case.

This is also why the 42 month reign of the beast can't be spanning hundreds of years like some might tend to think. Because if so, we are then back to how the first vial can be poured out on different ppl not even living in the same time period?

So what of Revelation 3:3 then?
Was Jesus Mistaken? or worse yet, Outright Lying to those people?

What would those at Sardis have thought when the event Jesus promised would be fall them, never did?

How could Jesus even make such a promise TO them, if your contention is that it was never meant to come to pass FOR them?

How could they (or we) ever trust ANYTHING Jesus said after He delivered such a monumental, prophetic failure?
In fact, Scripture is clear that we Can't. (Deuteronomy 18:22)

Hammster · Dec 2, 2021

parousia70 said:
There is only ONE Coming of Christ as a thief prophesied in scripture, and it was promised to befall actual living, breathing, blood pumping, First Century peoples. (Revelation 3:3)

It is NOT an event that happens again and again.

I have no idea. I don't even pretend to know.
The timing and details of that event have not been reveled to men (Deuteronomy 29:29)
I have no reason to even speculate. Such is not my charge in this life. My Charge is to Subdue Kindgoms and Establish Righteousness like the Hebrews 11 Heroes before me. And we cannot fail (Matthew 16:18)

There has not been even one single end time prognosticator since the 1st century that has been correct in their "Last Days" predictions. All have failed.
Every. Last. One.
Why would I want to hang my hat with that lot?

Just Like the 1900+ years of Christians who have come and gone before me, odds are, I will draw my final breath long before that event comes to pass, so any speculating, guessing, hand wringing or fretting about it would only serve as a distraction from my comission stated above.

I've witnessed the destruction such distraction can bring about in our world, and I will take no part in it.

They didn’t know what we know.

3 Resurrections · Dec 2, 2021

Jesus Himself defines for us what "overcoming" means in Revelation. That definition is found in Revelation 3:21.

"To him that overcometh, will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne." Just how did Jesus "overcome" and then sit down on His Father's throne? He accomplished this by His crucifixion death. This was followed by His resurrection, after which He was enthroned at God's right hand in heaven. What to the world looked like Christ being defeated and "overcome" by physically dying was actually necessary for Jesus to "overcome" by resurrecting Himself from the grave. Apparent disaster was actually a victory, not only for Himself, but for any saints who are put to death for their faith in Him. "But thanks be to God who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ". "We are more than conquerors through Him who loved us."

In those first-century days of persecution, for the believer who would try to "save his life" physically by compromising his faith under persecution, this person would "lose his life" by missing out on the AD 70 bodily resurrection. Likewise, whoever was willing to "lose his life" physically for Christ's sake and the gospel's during that period of persecution before the AD 70 bodily resurrection would thereby "save it" by being given the "crown of life" in that day. This doesn't have anything to do with losing one's salvation status as a child of God. Rather, it has to do with those dying before AD 70 being able to joyfully participate in that soon-coming bodily resurrection at Christ's return. Those saints who did not die before then would be left to wait until the next resurrection event in the distant future instead.

For all those in Revelation's 7 churches who were encouraged to "overcome", they were being given assurances that if they were "faithful unto death", they would be given the "crown of life" in that next, up-coming resurrection event when Christ returned.

grafted branch · Dec 2, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
Jesus Himself defines for us what "overcoming" means in Revelation. That definition is found in Revelation 3:21.

"To him that overcometh, will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne." Just how did Jesus "overcome" and then sit down on His Father's throne? He accomplished this by His crucifixion death. This was followed by His resurrection, after which He was enthroned at God's right hand in heaven. What to the world looked like Christ being defeated and "overcome" by physically dying was actually necessary for Jesus to "overcome" by resurrecting Himself from the grave. Apparent disaster was actually a victory, not only for Himself, but for any saints who are put to death for their faith in Him. "But thanks be to God who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ". "We are more than conquerors through Him who loved us."

In those first-century days of persecution, for the believer who would try to "save his life" physically by compromising his faith under persecution, this person would "lose his life" by missing out on the AD 70 bodily resurrection. Likewise, whoever was willing to "lose his life" physically for Christ's sake and the gospel's during that period of persecution before the AD 70 bodily resurrection would thereby "save it" by being given the "crown of life" in that day. This doesn't have anything to do with losing one's salvation status as a child of God. Rather, it has to do with those dying before AD 70 being able to joyfully participate in that soon-coming bodily resurrection at Christ's return. Those saints who did not die before then would be left to wait until the next resurrection event in the distant future instead.

For all those in Revelation's 7 churches who were encouraged to "overcome", they were being given assurances that if they were "faithful unto death", they would be given the "crown of life" in that next, up-coming resurrection event when Christ returned.

Thanks for posting your view of this.

I would say the most clear definition of what overcoming involves is found in Revelation 12:11, the blood of the Lamb. The dragon gives the beast in Revelation 13 his power, seat, and authority. Since the dragon can be overcome by the blood of the Lamb then so can the beast, therefore the saints that are overcome in Revelation 13:7 are not relying on the blood of the Lamb.

Let me get your thoughts on Revelation 11. The 2 witnesses are overcome and killed. They then ascend to heaven in verse 12. Did the 2 witnesses overcome and take part in the AD 70 resurrection? If so then would you also say they overcame and at the same time they were overcome?

Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Psalm 144:1

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Well-Known Member

Similar threads