Christian conversions

eleos1954

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Revelation, yes. I think it’s historic allegory

The book of Revelation is like a highly condensed overview of mans history but also reveals how everything will end.
 
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James_Lai

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Interesting, what you think is important is outward show, nothing has been said about truth.


Tell me, did Jesus get crucified, was he buried in a tomb and did he physically rise from the dead?
The Quran say he did not.

So which is right?

Please state your evidence for your views.

It’s beyond my OP. I don’t know anything for sure about Jesus, I wasn’t there, I’ve never met Him. So this is not a question for me. Anything is possible. It might all be true and even more, or it could all be a myth. I have no idea, have no proof of anything, but sure interesting to investigate more.

I’m seeking, I don’t hold any valid answers.

The OP are observations…. I can only look at outward show of actions, like the Book of James suggested. One can’t see faith, it’s intangible. I can see actions though. Judge by the fruits, Jesus said. Also the Bible said be wise like snakes and discern what happens around you.

For example, the cult members who willingly committed mass suicide in the US some years ago had a 100% wrong belief, but nobody can doubt the strength and sincerety of their faith… Their tragic act proved it loud and clear.
 
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Halbhh

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I know this view, and I don’t like it. There are other words of Jesus that emphasize the need to be vigilant and do hard work no matter what, serving God who sees everything at all times. What difference does it make what condition the church or the world is at?

Otherwise, if you expect the church to be in a decaying state, then it’s normalized in your mind and you aren’t motivated to try and change it?

As they say about your house, if you don’t fix a broken light switch, a blown away siding, don’t replace a broken window instead covering it with cardboard and so on, then over time you trash your home, because you in your mind accepted that it’s okay for it to be in disrepair…

We certainly are to follow Christ regardless of what most other people are doing. That's very fundamental for us. We don't follow Him only because it's what most everyone around us is doing. Maybe that's not quite what you are getting at in that first paragraph. But here's more:

And we are definitely instructed to help each other, and also to exhort/encourage each other, our brothers and sisters.

There's a lot of that here on Christian Forums. :)

And there's plenty in a church, in the ones I've seen.

The pastor is exhorting and/or encouraging us every Sunday. And we also exhort each other at times, and also encourage each other. And help each other.

It's full of warmth and love, too.

I remember we moved here to a new city and joined a church, and my wife had to had a minor procedure on a knee not long after we joined, like just a month or 2, and I was still trying to remember names, and to our surprise a member showed up with a wonderful casserole for us, unannounced (or at least to me).
 
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James_Lai

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We certainly are to follow Christ regardless of what most other people are doing. That's very fundamental for us. We don't follow Him only because it's what most everyone around us is doing. Maybe that's not quite what you are getting at in that first paragraph. But here's more:

And we are definitely instructed to help each other, and also to exhort/encourage each other, our brothers and sisters.

There's a lot of that here on Christian Forums. :)

And there's plenty in a church, in the ones I've seen.

The pastor is exhorting and/or encouraging us every Sunday. And we also exhort each other at times, and also encourage each other. And help each other.

It's full of warmth and love, too.

I remember we moved here to a new city and joined a church, and my wife had to had a minor procedure on a knee not long after we joined, like just a month or 2, and I was still trying to remember names, and to our surprise a member showed up with a wonderful casserole for us, unannounced (or at least to me).

So great to read about the positives!!! Shows the best in humanity, and I love it. Surely Christ taught exactly that.

What I was getting at, again going back to the lack of fire so to speak in the church, is maybe these two opposite ideas kind of cancel each other out.

Urgency, people in need of salvation, and narrow gate and world destruction. It’s like you get employed by a car dealership and then the manager says, 80% of our cars are junk that nobody wants and the rest 20% are going to be damaged by hail as total write-off on Thursday… Would you be motivated to sell? I don’t know. Why even bother? Just take whatever paycheck you get or quit on the spot if you only make sale commissions.

Contradicting teachings compete in your mind and eventually the one more emphasized or maybe more definitive for you wins. You can’t turn left and right simultaneously, or heat and freeze a turkey at the same time….
 
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James_Lai

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could be .... but how long will one live .... until their fate is sealed through their earthly death?

Our life is very short no matter what. 1 day or 36,500 days. Quite limited. “Life is but a blink of an eye”, my 90 years old grandma used to say.

My point is, stressing the end of the world teaching at church is totally wrong in my opinion. A grand mistake. The church should adapt a different motto, “Live as if there will never be an end to this world”… Cause it might very well be for you! Otherwise, it’s instilled in the Christian minds of every generation that today or tomorrow it’s all going to burn….

Who will ever want to do anything when taught that???

All productive goals get cancelled out…

Careless about people around, careless about the environment… Because who cares? The hotel is getting demolished this Sunday, spit on the floor and break the sink… Doesn’t matter. I’m checking out tomorrow anyway
 
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eleos1954

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Our life is very short no matter what. 1 day or 36,500 days. Quite limited. “Life is but a blink of an eye”, my 90 years old grandma used to say.

My point is, stressing the end of the world teaching at church is totally wrong in my opinion. A grand mistake. The church should adapt a different motto, “Live as if there will never be an end to this world”… Cause it might very well be for you! Otherwise, it’s instilled in the Christian minds of every generation that today or tomorrow it’s all going to burn….

Who will ever want to do anything when taught that???

All productive goals get cancelled out…

Careless about people around, careless about the environment… Because who cares? The hotel is getting demolished this Sunday, spit on the floor and break the sink… Doesn’t matter. I’m checking out tomorrow anyway

well .... if the Lord does not return .... and end sin by totally destroying it .... then the chaos in our world never ends. We live a day at a time .... but also knowing some day we will live in a world where there is no more pain or sorrow and that will be for eternity. Not caring what goes on? No that is not taught nor should it be the mind set. We have a lot to do until He returns and that is to help those in need, until He does return.

Christianity teaches that while we are living in this world to love one another (putting others before self) .... we all struggle with that .... love is worth living for and also worth dieing for (that is what Christ did). He died for you that you may receive eternal life.
 
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Sketcher

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In a protestant Christian church, when there are public conversions (or at least confessing/declaration of conversions), it’s a low-key event. Yes there could be clapping and some happy exclamations, but it all basically culminates with presenting a lootbag of books to the new believers. In some cases, there would be an Alfa course to attend afterwards. Or if you leave and never come back, chances are, you’re forgotten. In Orthodox or Catholic church, I’ve never witnessed a public conversion, only baptisms which are done postfactum.
At my church, when there's a baptism, there is loud cheering. Sometimes baptisms don't happen on a Sunday morning, sometimes there's a special service at a different time one or more times a year. Once a year, we go to a park, have a meal, the worship band plays on stage, and we do the baptisms in the lake. A guy I prayed for 15 years ago got baptized this year at one of those, I made sure I was going to be there to see it happen.

Then the whole mosque would want to congratulate, hug and kiss the man/woman…. (well, pre-2020). They would be so eager to tell you, “Oh brother, I envy you because today you are pure, cleansed of all your previous sin, in a better standing than all of us here who have been sinning, you have a clean slate”. The people really impress this thought upon you.
Which is also one of the key weaknesses of Islam - as I understand it, they believe that forgiveness for sins comparable to what Christians are promised is too good to be true. Christians get guaranteed forgiveness when we sincerely turn away from our sins and ask for it.

Overall, they immediately surround you with a robust network of support as a closed-knit community.
If a Christian church is a small one, you have that built-in. If it's a big one, you generally need to seek a smaller group, but they're advertised, available, and very supportive when you join. These are of course, the best examples, as I'm sure you are also sharing a "best example" from Islam.

So…. this tells me that Islam is practiced way more deeply and sincerely than Christianity…. Christians can sit on pews and check their emails on smartphones during service…. You can’t imagine a Muslim reach for their phone during a Juma salaat…. Islam is an all-encompassing mindset and way of life to many Muslims, but Christianity is often a nominal Sunday activity for Christians…

In Muslim countries, it’s Islam or mostly Islam that directs the public and private life. In Christian or post-Christian countries it’s just an add-on of convenience to otherwise secular life, an add-on that’s mostly kept private.
Honestly, I grew up with a couple of Muslim guys. The only difference between them and the other guys our age was they didn't eat pork products, and their dad got them up at 5:00 AM to do their morning prayers. That's it. They did the same stuff most other people did, including drinking beer while underage.

My brother also worked a 7/11 for a time, in a college town. He saw his share of students from Muslim countries. More than once he would see groups of mideastern women, without hijabs and sloshed, asking if this food or that one had pork in it.

Muslims want to know your religion first second they meet you, and learning you’re part of the umma, they turn on the “you’re one of us” mode on high gear, kinly opening up to you… Or, the “let me tell you what you’re missing” mode if you’re not. Christians can work with you side-by-side for 10 years and you’d never even once suspect they’re a Christian….
I've run into Muslims like this too. It's almost as though they run by a script when trying to convert you. They tend to be less interested in actually becoming friends with you when they see that you're firm in your beliefs.

Of course, how apostasy is treated in these two religions today is a whole different subject :) An ignorant kafir or an ex-Muslim kafir, well, not the same thing… no more ir-Rahman ir-Raheem!
To put it mildly. Disownment, death threats, being beaten and stripped naked - all of these have been reported.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Your thoughts about the below??

One striking difference I find between Christian and Muslim practice is conversions… (Or reverting as Muslims like to say, who consider all infants to be originally born Muslim).

In a protestant Christian church, when there are public conversions (or at least confessing/declaration of conversions), it’s a low-key event. Yes there could be clapping and some happy exclamations, but it all basically culminates with presenting a lootbag of books to the new believers. In some cases, there would be an Alfa course to attend afterwards. Or if you leave and never come back, chances are, you’re forgotten. In Orthodox or Catholic church, I’ve never witnessed a public conversion, only baptisms which are done postfactum. So I have no idea how it’s supposed to happen, probably simply a mental decision in private. Or perhaps the baptisms are the conversions for them. I know there’s some studying involved before you can join the faith, such as “The Law of God” course in the EO churches. For protestants, they love to lead new believers in a short “sinner’s prayer”… But not always. Some only require accepting the fundamental truths of the Gospel by faith.

Well, Muslim public conversions, on the other hand, are always a big deal. Probably the biggest of all… The whole mosque would rhythmically repeat in unison “Takbir - Allahu Akbar!” The conversion would be highly emotional, with the convert crying 9 out of 10 times during the Shahada, even if it’s a rugged man…The imam could be sobbing too, as do half of the mosque…

Then the whole mosque would want to congratulate, hug and kiss the man/woman…. (well, pre-2020). They would be so eager to tell you, “Oh brother, I envy you because today you are pure, cleansed of all your previous sin, in a better standing than all of us here who have been sinning, you have a clean slate”. The people really impress this thought upon you. They would welcome the new Muslim to their homes, invite for lunches, throw parties, shower with gifts (even poor people), provide advice on following the Din and growing in the Iman, joke about a new Muslim name for you, suggest how to dress etc… Genuine and cute. Overall, they immediately surround you with a robust network of support as a closed-knit community. They’re especially extatic if you’re not from a traditionally Muslim nation, firmly believing one day Islam would be accepted world over… A big deal for them… I experienced that, though honestly I never really accepted Islam in its entirety, all I wanted was to try it out. I did have some sincerity.

So…. this tells me that Islam is practiced way more deeply and sincerely than Christianity…. Christians can sit on pews and check their emails on smartphones during service…. You can’t imagine a Muslim reach for their phone during a Juma salaat…. Islam is an all-encompassing mindset and way of life to many Muslims, but Christianity is often a nominal Sunday activity for Christians…

In Muslim countries, it’s Islam or mostly Islam that directs the public and private life. In Christian or post-Christian countries it’s just an add-on of convenience to otherwise secular life, an add-on that’s mostly kept private.

Muslims want to know your religion first second they meet you, and learning you’re part of the umma, they turn on the “you’re one of us” mode on high gear, kinly opening up to you… Or, the “let me tell you what you’re missing” mode if you’re not. Christians can work with you side-by-side for 10 years and you’d never even once suspect they’re a Christian….

Of course, how apostasy is treated in these two religions today is a whole different subject :) An ignorant kafir or an ex-Muslim kafir, well, not the same thing… no more ir-Rahman ir-Raheem!
You've identified a serious problem with so-called Christianity. Way too many "conversions" are simply mental assent to a set of facts. Compare the very start of the church in the book of Acts with what we see today.

Lord Jesus said that we must be born again. That is the minimum requirement even to see the Kingdom of God. An individual must be convicted of sin, and that is a heart, not a mind thing. Again, the first Christians were "cut to the heart" (Acts 2:37). They said, "What must we do...?"

If you have a church full of people that see Christianity as little more than a social club or "get out of hell free" card, they will be superficial. They will treat others superficially also. At least they won't murder you if you quit being a Christian.
 
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I don’t know anything for sure about Jesus, I wasn’t there, I’ve never met Him. So this is not a question for me. Anything is possible. It might all be true and even more, or it could all be a myth. I have no idea, have no proof of anything, but sure interesting to investigate more.

Interesting that you consider the results of other peoples research to be worthless.

Do you do the same with science research, it is only valid if you have proved it?

1 Cor15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.


No resurrection no Christianity.

So what evidence do you have that proves or disproves the resurrection.
 
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Reasonable Christian

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Whether Christians are more or less devout than Muslims in general, and whether their conversions are more or less sincere in general, are unknowable. More to the point, these things are irrelevant to whether the teachings of Christianity and Islam are true or false. One can be sincere about their convictions and still be wrong. I would encourage the OP to investigate the actual claims of Christianity and Islam and decide which hold up better under scrutiny. For me, it's Christianity, and it's not even close.
 
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James_Lai

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At my church, when there's a baptism, there is loud cheering. Sometimes baptisms don't happen on a Sunday morning, sometimes there's a special service at a different time one or more times a year. Once a year, we go to a park, have a meal, the worship band plays on stage, and we do the baptisms in the lake. A guy I prayed for 15 years ago got baptized this year at one of those, I made sure I was going to be there to see it happen.


Which is also one of the key weaknesses of Islam - as I understand it, they believe that forgiveness for sins comparable to what Christians are promised is too good to be true. Christians get guaranteed forgiveness when we sincerely turn away from our sins and ask for it.


If a Christian church is a small one, you have that built-in. If it's a big one, you generally need to seek a smaller group, but they're advertised, available, and very supportive when you join. These are of course, the best examples, as I'm sure you are also sharing a "best example" from Islam.


Honestly, I grew up with a couple of Muslim guys. The only difference between them and the other guys our age was they didn't eat pork products, and their dad got them up at 5:00 AM to do their morning prayers. That's it. They did the same stuff most other people did, including drinking beer while underage.

My brother also worked a 7/11 for a time, in a college town. He saw his share of students from Muslim countries. More than once he would see groups of mideastern women, without hijabs and sloshed, asking if this food or that one had pork in it.


I've run into Muslims like this too. It's almost as though they run by a script when trying to convert you. They tend to be less interested in actually becoming friends with you when they see that you're firm in your beliefs.


To put it mildly. Disownment, death threats, being beaten and stripped naked - all of these have been reported.

Thank you very very much for sharing your own experience!
 
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James_Lai

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You've identified a serious problem with so-called Christianity. Way too many "conversions" are simply mental assent to a set of facts. Compare the very start of the church in the book of Acts with what we see today.

Lord Jesus said that we must be born again. That is the minimum requirement even to see the Kingdom of God. An individual must be convicted of sin, and that is a heart, not a mind thing. Again, the first Christians were "cut to the heart" (Acts 2:37). They said, "What must we do...?"

If you have a church full of people that see Christianity as little more than a social club or "get out of hell free" card, they will be superficial. They will treat others superficially also. At least they won't murder you if you quit being a Christian.

Thank you..
 
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James_Lai

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Interesting that you consider the results of other peoples research to be worthless.

Do you do the same with science research, it is only valid if you have proved it?

1 Cor15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.


No resurrection no Christianity.

So what evidence do you have that proves or disproves the resurrection.

I do my own research about Jesus and so far the jury is out…

Science I also doubt. Some of it I take as correct (but like to question) as it’s within my experience. Some of it I doubt and try to research. There are areas both in religion and science that are beyond my capability of research, then it’s perpetual “maybe”. There are areas I son’t understand and I won’t even go there. There are areas that I think I understand until I go there only to realize I wasn’t anywhere close to understanding them… Then I try to understand them or accept defeat.
 
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James_Lai

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Whether Christians are more or less devout than Muslims in general, and whether their conversions are more or less sincere in general, are unknowable. More to the point, these things are irrelevant to whether the teachings of Christianity and Islam are true or false. One can be sincere about their convictions and still be wrong. I would encourage the OP to investigate the actual claims of Christianity and Islam and decide which hold up better under scrutiny. For me, it's Christianity, and it's not even close.

Reasonable, thank you. Researching beleif systems - I have been doing just that for some years.

Sincerity and strength of faith I believe are measurable and knowable (not easily). I do realize my experience and discernment could be very far from sufficient sample size and good analysis…
 
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James_Lai

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At my church, when there's a baptism, there is loud cheering. Sometimes baptisms don't happen on a Sunday morning, sometimes there's a special service at a different time one or more times a year. Once a year, we go to a park, have a meal, the worship band plays on stage, and we do the baptisms in the lake. A guy I prayed for 15 years ago got baptized this year at one of those, I made sure I was going to be there to see it happen.


Which is also one of the key weaknesses of Islam - as I understand it, they believe that forgiveness for sins comparable to what Christians are promised is too good to be true. Christians get guaranteed forgiveness when we sincerely turn away from our sins and ask for it.


If a Christian church is a small one, you have that built-in. If it's a big one, you generally need to seek a smaller group, but they're advertised, available, and very supportive when you join. These are of course, the best examples, as I'm sure you are also sharing a "best example" from Islam.


Honestly, I grew up with a couple of Muslim guys. The only difference between them and the other guys our age was they didn't eat pork products, and their dad got them up at 5:00 AM to do their morning prayers. That's it. They did the same stuff most other people did, including drinking beer while underage.

My brother also worked a 7/11 for a time, in a college town. He saw his share of students from Muslim countries. More than once he would see groups of mideastern women, without hijabs and sloshed, asking if this food or that one had pork in it.


I've run into Muslims like this too. It's almost as though they run by a script when trying to convert you. They tend to be less interested in actually becoming friends with you when they see that you're firm in your beliefs.


To put it mildly. Disownment, death threats, being beaten and stripped naked - all of these have been reported.

I’ve been to the States several times on work trips and visiting friends. So, more or less briefly. D.C., upstate NY, north west mostly.

Talking to people at this forum made me really think if Canadian Christianity is not the best representative of Christianity as a whole. Or talking about my experience with Christianity, I should always specify where geographically :)

American Christians seem to indicate there’s more sincere and deeper faith over there than what has been my experience… I’ve heard so much about the Bible belt, I guess the southern states and also central prairies up to Montana?

Looking at what’s been going on in the USA our southern neighbour, it seems some extreme views, that are not so much Christian, are taking over. It’s like Christianity is going away from the American life, at least from its front side so to speak…

Anyways, it made me very interested to visit the more deeply Christian regions. Any recommendations? Not superficial nominal multitudes, maybe less percentage but really sincere and true believers??? Not quantity necessarily but quality :)
 
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James_Lai

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Which is also one of the key weaknesses of Islam - as I understand it, they believe that forgiveness for sins comparable to what Christians are promised is too good to be true. Christians get guaranteed forgiveness when we sincerely turn away from our sins and ask for it.

This is a very interesting point. I always think about this. Salvation by works vs salvation by grace. Some Christian churches I think believe in salvation by works - they might interpret it away saying it’s eventually grace, but in essence, it’s still works.

Anyways. I don’t know if it’s really seen to be too good to be true. Maybe perceived to be unfair? Unjust? Both ways - for the saved and for the condemned.

From my observation, Christians might become not as motivated or serious about their faith once realizing “they got their guaranteed ticket to heaven”… It’s a big fault too, in my opinion. For example, I saw some nasty behaviour by most Christian missionaries I met in the mission field away from anybody’s control… No accountability, they break bad… As for Muslim missionaries, as a rule they would walk the talk in similar circumstances, though not without bad apples among them as well of course
 
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James_Lai

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I’m thinking, maybe it’s secular upbringing, critical thinking, free access to almost any information, basically, the kind of education one gets in family and formal schooling that makes Christians in the West less sincere and not as strong in faith?? Because more and more reasons to doubt, or to live by other ideas and values and to have Christianity no more than an add-on for familial or cultural reasons…

So if Islamic societies get there, Islam would experience the same? Islam is 500 years behind from Christianity though… So they are where Christianity was 500 years ago
 
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I’ve been to the States several times on work trips and visiting friends. So, more or less briefly. D.C., upstate NY, north west mostly.

It made me really think if Canadian Christianity is not the best representative of Christianity as a whole. Or talking about my experience with Christianity, I should always specify where geographically :)

American Christians seem to indicate there’s more sincere faith over there… I’ve heard so much about the Bible belt, I guess the southern states and also central prairies up to Montana?

Looking at what has been going back on in the USA our southern neighbour, it seems some extreme views, that are not so much Christian, are taking over. It’s like Christianity is going away from the American life, at least from its front side so to speak…

Anyways, it made me very interested to visit the more deeply Christian regions. Any recommendations? Not superficial nominal multitudes, maybe less percentage but really sincere and true believers???
The Bible Belt is in the American South.

I don't live there, but I have briefly visited.

You'll find conservative and liberal churches all over the place. My church is evangelical and conservative in doctrine, though perhaps you could say we're more moderate in terms of traditional practice. I suppose you could say we value doctrine, evangelical calling, and traditions in that order. Our doctrine informs our high priority on loving people in the community. So I prefer and recommend churches like that. I'm sure there are plenty that exist inside and outside the Bible Belt.

I don't know much about Christianity in Canada, but a church that mine has worked with did have a pastor who moved up to Kingswood University for a while before he moved again. So you might find a good enclave of Christianity around there. Also, there are Canadian believers on CF that I have chatted with over the years who are as solid as Christians from the US. They're from all over Canada.
 
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