Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

sovereigngrace · Nov 29, 2021

claninja said:
Ah, another classic blanket statement, with no evidence to back it up…..

And why can’t you answer a simple request that actually relates to the OP, instead of a deflecting?

Just as you demand premils to provide other scriptures, outside revelation 20, to support a literal 1,000 year reign, why can’t you provide other scripture, outside revelation 20, to support souls going to heaven to reign prior to the resurrection?

you usually jump at the bit to provide paragraph upon paragraph upon paragraph upon paragraph of scriptural support…..

I did, and you have no answer for it. Please address the Op instead of trying to derail this thread.

claninja · Nov 30, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
I did, and you have no answer for it. Please address the Op instead of trying to derail this thread.

sure, which post in case I missed it? As your OP provides no scripture that specifically states souls of dead believes go to heaven to reign.

sovereigngrace · Nov 30, 2021

claninja said:
sure, which post in case I missed it? As your OP provides no scripture that specifically states souls of dead believes go to heaven to reign.

Why are you and your fellow Extreme Preterists so uncomfortable with answering simple questions re the coming of Christ? Does Satan's little season end at Christ's literal physical future climactic parousia?

claninja · Nov 30, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Why are you and your fellow extreme Preterists so uncomfortable with answering simple questions re the coming of Christ? Does Satan's little season end at Christ's literal physical future climactic parousia?

Because you are unable to actually provide evidence for your position or counter any points I’ve made, you are attempting to falsely out me as a full preterist. It’s clearly the only tactic you have.

So I will ask: why are you so uncomfortable providing examples of your claims (1. That i don’t understand Amil and 2. You have already provided evidence that souls go to heaven to reign), is it because they don’t actually exist?

sovereigngrace · Nov 30, 2021

claninja said:
Because you are unable to actually provide evidence for your position or counter any points I’ve made, you are attempting to falsely out me as a full preterist. It’s clearly the only tactic you have.

So I will ask: why are you so uncomfortable providing examples of your claims (1. That i don’t understand Amil and 2. You have already provided evidence that souls go to heaven to reign), is it because they don’t actually exist?

Stop playing games. This thread is addressed to Premils not Extreme Preterists.

claninja · Nov 30, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Stop playing games. This thread is addressed to Premils not Extreme Preterists.

Edit: it’s also about the premise that the Amil position of revelation 20:4 being about souls reigning in heaven as the correct position. The OP is still address this aspect with supporting scripture.

Well, I’ll take your silence as acceptance that you have no examples where I was wrong about Amil, nor are you able to produce supporting scripture for revelation 20:4 being about souls reigning in heaven.

sovereigngrace · Nov 30, 2021

Guojing said:
There is no need to answer to the scriptures you present, because you are giving it your own unique interpretation, and you are not open to other possible interpretations.

Stop avoiding the Op (which disproves Premil) and just voicing your own opinions.

Guojing · Nov 30, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Stop avoiding the Op (which disproves Premil) and just voicing your own opinions.

I was affirming your opponent in this thread, that's all.

Acts29 · Nov 30, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
This is a major difference between Premillennialism and Amillennialism. This is just another reason (of many) why Christians should reject Premillennialism and embrace what Scripture says over the teaching of man.

The reality is: Jesus is allowing and permitting evil according to His sovereign purposes. He places places boundaries upon evil and limits man according to His overriding will. He elevates and removes leaders as He sees fit. Jesus is in control and there is nothing that is not under Him.

sovereigngrace said:
Two wrongs do not make a right.

I don't want to argue here, but I'd like to ask a hypothetical question. Suppose Elijah were to come and say the Amil was nothing but unbelief, would you listen to him, or reject him?

sovereigngrace · Nov 30, 2021

Acts29 said:
I don't want to argue here, but I'd like to ask a hypothetical question. Suppose Elijah were to come and say the Amil was nothing but unbelief, would you listen to him, or reject him?

Why would Elijah deny the truth? There is no way.

Acts29 · Nov 30, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Why would Elijah deny the truth? There is no way.

So, you would reject him. Noted. Many will do just that next fall.

sovereigngrace · Nov 30, 2021

Acts29 said:
So, you would reject him. Noted. Many will do just that next fall.

What are you talking about?

Timtofly · Dec 1, 2021

DavidPT said:
I never got around to mentioning it at the time, but it could be that Amils, not Premils, can fill in the missing details. I think there is more to it than them marching up to the city and God then devouring them with fire, thus that verse is likely compressed.

Amil exist to remove all detail and stick to the facts. Although some are good at hyperbole to make things sound worse than they are.

If two verses do not corroborate an idea, add detail to make them work? I don't think so. I have been accused of making things up, yet I at least try to find actual ideas in the Bible and not my imagination.

Satan being loosed is post the 1000 years, and how long did it take Eve listening to Satan to grab a fruit and take a bite? 1000 years?

Timtofly · Dec 1, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
This is a major difference between Premillennialism and Amillennialism. This is just another reason (of many) why Christians should reject Premillennialism and embrace what Scripture says over the teaching of man.

The reality is: Jesus is allowing and permitting evil according to His sovereign purposes. He places places boundaries upon evil and limits man according to His overriding will. He elevates and removes leaders as He sees fit. Jesus is in control and there is nothing that is not under Him.

Except pre-mill is the words as written.

Amil is a separate interpretation called recap, which some human invented.

John wrote Revelation 20 as an event after the Second Coming.

Human imagination takes John's words and adds the thoughts of humans outside of the Holy Spirit's specific point.

Timtofly · Dec 1, 2021

DavidPT said:
There is Ezekiel 38 and 39 that might fill in the missing details. And if so, it wouldn't help to prove Premil, it would help to prove Amil instead. Neither of those chapters involve a time 1000 years after Christ's return. Yet, those chapters involve the holy city being surrounded, and God devouring them with fire.

Ezekiel 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Edited to add: I just thought of something, though. Don't know why I didn't think about this earlier. Revelation 20:7-9 involves the camp of the saints being surrounded. Ezekiel 38-39 involves the house of Israel being surrounded while God is still hiding His face from them, thus they don't fit the camp of saints at that time. And here I have been thinking that Ezekiel 38-39 maybe supports Amil which doesn't appear to be the case at all.

Bingo!

This is talking about Jesus at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal, Revelation 6.

Same as 2 Peter 3.

Amil combine the Second Coming with the battle of Armageddon, with Satan's little season.

They are 3 separate and unrelated events.

The 6th Seal is the Mt. Of Olives event when Jesus rescues Israel. On the way down the church is raptured to meet the Lord in the air. The church is then in Paradise, and Jesus Christ the Prince is in Israel.

After the final harvest, if some souls still need to be harvested, Satan is given 42 months to carry out this harvest. Only then do we get Armageddon, no fire at all, only the Word, a sword, out of Jesus' mouth. Only then 1000 years later, do we see Satan loosed and those who follow Satan consumed by fire from heaven. Amil have convinced themselves all three events are the same event, and cannot properly distinguish them apart from each other.

It is my opinion that the Gog Magog (Ezekiel) event has been ongoing for the last 12 years over the dispute of Syria which is part of the land promised to Abraham. 1948 was only a partial restoration, as we see even Jerusalem took until 1967 to resolve. The time of the Gentiles is still a fact, so Syria will be the last thing resolved by Christ at the Second Coming.

Timtofly · Dec 1, 2021

DavidPT said:
There is nothing in the Bible anywhere that supports souls without bodies reigning in heaven being priests of God and Christ while in that state.

That is because they do have bodies. Night and day they are priest. Revelation 7:15.

"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple:"

This started at the ascension in 30AD. Matthew 27, states they had a physical bodily resurrection. The first resurrection. The second death has no power over them.

The difference between the 30AD event and the Revelation 20:4 resurrection, is that one was to Paradise. The other is to reign on earth for the next 1000 years. Both are physical resurrections. Both provide the soul avoidance of the second death. Those in sheol since Adam are still in sheol today, and will remain in sheol until after the 1000 years at the GWT.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 1, 2021

DavidPT said:
Can you at least answer as to when you think the beginning of this is meaning---and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ?

If you think the beginning of that parallels any of the thousand years, rather than all of it paralleling satan's little season after the thousand years, not that I agree with either conclusion, that alone makes your position that less convincing. At least there would be some logic to it if the beginning of that is meaning satan's little season after the thousand years. There is no logic to it if any of that parallels any of the thousand years.

In Revelation 12:17 for war and in Revelation 20:8 for battle the same Greek word is used--polemos.

Revelation 12:17 is describing something that happens immediately after Satan is cast out of heaven, though. And he was cast out long ago. So, Revelation 12:17 is not a parallel to Revelation 20:8. It does NOT say that Satan's binding has anything to do with him being bound from persecuting believers. So, why do you act as if it does?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 1, 2021

claninja said:
Christs’s unknown future parousia, is just that: Unknown in the future. Remember, I’m a partial preterist.

So, you believe that Satan's little season began with the resurrection and/or ascension of Christ and is still going on today and will continue until Christ's future parousia, right? Which means that you believe Satan's little season has lasted for almost 2,000 years so far. That doesn't seem like a "little season" to me.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 1, 2021

claninja said:
Davidpt seems to believe so.

I’m not aware of the premil belief that Christians don’t presently reign spiritually over sin because of the resurrection of Christ. However the premil believes the “type” of reigning in revelation 20:4 is different.

do you believe the spiritual reigning that the believer does now is the exact same as when the believer goes to heaven? The OP says “there is a big difference”.

Many premils do not believe that Christ is reigning now in any sense. It's kind of hard to reign with Christ if He's not even reigning at all, right? I'm amazed that you're completely missing that point. DavidPT does not represent all Premils by any means, which I already told you before.

sure, but thats irrelevant to arguing against a premil.

Click to expand...

Not as it relates to some Premils, but you're just not getting that because you seem to think that all Premils think exactly alike about everything, which is clearly not the case.

So would you agree that “away from the body” means the same thing?

Click to expand...

No. Away from the body means you're not in a body, so that's talking about someone's soul and not their body. You seem to think that someone has to have a body to be in heaven, but if that was the case then why would Paul talk in terms of being away from the body at all?

So then why are you creating a difference between “presently having a house, not made by humans hands, eternal in the heavens” and “home with the Lord”?

Click to expand...

Being at home with the Lord means being with him in heaven. Heaven is the home of the souls of the dead in Christ right now. That does not require having a body. That's why Paul talked about being away from his body but still being present with the Lord. If you need to have a body to be present with the Lord then what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and Philippians 1:21-24 would make no sense.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 1, 2021

Timtofly said:
You have control over other humans and what they do spiritually? I thought that only applied to cults?

That is not what he was saying. Our spiritual enemies are not humans.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The point was that we have authority over evil spirits/demons just like is described here:

Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” 17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.” 18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

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