What is Abortion?

SilverBear · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Those were special circumstances and war. Killing happens in war, and is still regrettable, but is not the same kind of killing as murder is. And it especially is not the same as a people killing their own sons and daughters, which is called "abominable" by the Word of God.

are you aware of how often we are biblically called upon to kill children?

truefiction1 · Dec 1, 2021

SilverBear said:
are you aware of how often we are biblically called upon to kill children?

I'm aware. Are you aware that these killings we're embedded in God's plan for the salvation of the world? It is important that those children were taken when they were taken. But God can decide such things, whereas we are not permitted, because we are not the Father.

SilverBear · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
I'm aware. Are you aware that these killings we're embedded in God's plan for the salvation of the world? It is important that those children were taken when they were taken. But God can decide such things, whereas we are not permitted, because we are not the Father.

This applies just as well to abortion. It's part of God's plan

GodLovesCats · Dec 1, 2021

SilverBear said:
I think the most significant problem in trying to associate abortion with some form of human sacrifice lies in the fact that until very recently a fetus was not considered a human being or more specifically it was not considered to be so because it lacked a soul. Opinions will vary at just when it was believed that a soul was granted to a fetus. The two most common were that the soul entered the body with the first breath and exiting the body with the last breath. This all relates to our many strange ways of blessing people when they sneeze. A stillbirth, while a sad event, was not considered a death as without the first breath the fetus was never alive. The other time considered is related and it is at the potential time when a fetus COULD breathe if born, so a fetus became a human being at about 7 months when it was possible for a fetus of that age to be born AND take a breath.

Starting with Genesis 2:7, the Bible repeatedly refers to the first breath as when life begins. That is likely the reason not all Jews, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christians are willing to admit the begging of a new human life is conception. I see it as when God gives humans their souls. Nothing else makes sense to me.

I can't agree with the belief that stillborn human beings never died. They were alive and died in utero. No obstetrician would tell you that dead fetus was never alive. But it was only alive biologically. It didn't have a soul because it never took the Biblical "breath of life."

At the same time, I believe aborted and miscarried fetuses (which there are very few of, despite what the pro-life people like to believe) go to heaven. Jesus said, "Let all the little children come to Me, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven."

truefiction1 · Dec 1, 2021

SilverBear said:
This applies just as well to abortion. It's part of God's plan

Abortion is murder, in the very least, and worse yet it is child sacrifice to Satan. God did not order it. God has forbidden both. Offenses are committed and people are the ones committing them, not God. God's plan also factors in the betrayal by Judas, the son of perdition. That betrayal is a transgression against God and so is abortion.

SilverBear · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Abortion is murder, in the very least, and worse yet it is child sacrifice to Satan. God did not order it. God has forbidden both. Offenses are committed and people are the ones committing them, not God. God's plan also factors in the betrayal by Judas, the son of perdition. That betrayal is a transgression against God and so is abortion.

you are engaging in special pleading. you want a medical proceudre to be considered human sacrifice but have no problem with the killing of children after they are born "Are you aware that these killings we're embedded in God's plan for the salvation of the world?"

truefiction1 · Dec 1, 2021

SilverBear said:
you are engaging in special pleading. you want a medical proceudre to be considered human sacrifice but have no problem with the killing of children after they are born "Are you aware that these killings we're embedded in God's plan for the salvation of the world?"

God has a problem with those who take it upon themselves to kill, period. "Thou shall not kill" is a commandment. Abortion is killing. It kills children before they are able to be born.

GodLovesCats · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Many Christians consider a child in the womb to be a living soul because Elizabeth's child (the Forerunner John) leapt in her womb (rejoiced) upon hearing the greeting of the mother of the Lord. The unborn child breathes through his or her mother. The preborn child cannot live without what is in the air, it gets this through their mother. God knits us together in our mother's womb, and there is an "us" from that moment of conception from which God begins knitting us together. We are not a thing. We are a person: God's unique handiwork. This is how many regard the preborn child. A fetus is not considered a human being by many, sure, but if a fetus really is a human person does it really matter what people consider them to be or not to be?

Stop right there. Personhood was never granted to fetuses because that is literally and legally impossible. A person is a born human being, period. This fact has been true since the first humans roamed the Earth. While being knit in the mother's womb, a human is just that - a human, not a person. But feel free to say that growing human is a baby or child as they are called in the Bible, which does not lie. We are definitely God's creations.

Aren't some babies killed after delivery if the abortion attempt failed, as done by the likes of Kermit Gosnell? Even stillborn children are considered a death by their mothers sometimes.

If this ever happens, the doctor must be locked up for life. That is murder. Most doctors are more likely to let the unwanted baby live with or without disabilities if an abortion attempt fails.

truefiction1 · Dec 1, 2021

ChristianForCats said:
Stop right there. Personhood was never granted to fetuses because that is literally and legally impossible. A person is a born human being, period. This fact has been true since the first humans roamed the Earth. While being knit in the mother's womb, a human is just that - a human, not a person. But feel free to say that growing human is a baby or child as they are called in the Bible, which does not lie. We are definitely God's creations.

If a pregnant woman is assaulted with violence and the violence causes the death of the fetus, it's been legally considered murder of the child inside the mother's womb, to varying degrees. So I think that to say that personhood was never granted to fetuses because it is literally and legally impossible is largely debatable. Since the earliest recorded history of Christianity, abortion was considered to be murder, and has been considered by the Church to be murder even by those who speculated that life/the soul began to exist sometime after conception. The killing of a fetus at any time after conception has always been condemned by the Church as an act of murder, and this evidence indicates that a person is "conceived" a human being, period. A person is not "born" a human being.

truefiction1 · Dec 1, 2021

ChristianForCats said:
If this ever happens, the doctor must be locked up for life. That is murder. Most doctors are more likely to let the unwanted baby live with or without disabilities if an abortion attempt fails.

And then, of course, there are late term abortions in which an electively aborted child is delivered via caesarian section so that the tissues are literally still living, or fresh, for the purpose of research. Just a few days more and the child would have been born, but because of a "choice" this person was deprived of being born. True story. Isn't the willful act of depriving a child of being born an act of murder? Sure seems like it to me.

GodLovesCats · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
If a pregnant woman is assaulted with violence and the violence causes the death of the fetus, it's been legally considered murder of the child inside the mother's womb, to varying degrees. So I think that to say that personhood was never granted to fetuses because it is literally and legally impossible is largely debatable. Since the earliest recorded history of Christianity, abortion was considered to be murder, and has been considered by the Church to be murder even by those who speculated that life/the soul began to exist sometime after conception. The killing of a fetus at any time after conception has always been condemned by the Church as an act of murder, and this evidence indicates that a person is "conceived" a human being, period. A person is not "born" a human being.

The literal and legal definitions of murder prevent any abortion from being called murder. The only people who call it murder are pro-lifers who wish it was unconstitutional. They want to believe it is murder when, at least in the United States, that is constitutionally impossible, to push their anti-choice narrative.

If fetuses were people, they would be counted on the U.S. Census every 10 years. They would be labeled U.S. citizens. Birthdays would mean nothing. The 14th Amendment could not be more clear: only persons "born or naturalized" can be citizens of the United States and have the rights to life, liberty, and property.

Of course, I am not saying churches should stop condemning abortion. I am just explaining what is wrong with the way they do it - calling people murderers, baby killers, etc. Wanting to lock up women instead of, as Jesus often taught, helping them with love and kindness. What happened to, "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you," a sentence straight out of the Lord's mouth? When used by all churches to condemn abortion, the word murder is both completely false and completely misogynistic.

truefiction1 · Dec 1, 2021

ChristianForCats said:
The literal and legal definitions of murder prevent any abortion from being called murder. The only people who call it murder are pro-lifers who wish it was unconstitutional. They want to believe it is murder when, at least in the United States, that is constitutionally impossible, to push their anti-choice narrative.

If fetuses were people, they would be counted on the U.S. Census every 10 years. They would be labeled U.S. citizens. Birthdays would mean nothing. The 14th Amendment could not be more clear: only persons "born or naturalized" can be citizens of the United States and have the rights to life, liberty, and property.

Of course, I am not saying churches should stop condemning abortion. I am just explaining what is wrong with the way they do it - calling people murderers, baby killers, etc. Wanting to lock up women instead of, as Jesus often taught, helping them with love and kindness. What happened to, "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you," a sentence straight out of the Lord's mouth? When used by all churches to condemn abortion, the word murder is both completely false and completely misogynistic.

Abortion was illegal in the United States until 1973 AD, I think, because it was legally considered to be murder, as well as morally considered to be murder. An unconstitutional court ruling declared it to be legal. So what? It's still murder whether an evil people legalize it or not. The killing of Jews and other undesirables was legalized under the 3rd Reich. They were murderers, regardless of what was permitted by the governing powers.

PloverWing · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
I won't provide all the Scriptural evidence here. However, I will pose the question: Even in the absence of any traditional idolatry (pagan religion), isn't it true that, in our times, "ideologies" sometimes take the place of the ancient mythologies, and are therefor false religions, or "idols"?

[ Note: I'm quoting just this excerpt for brevity, but I intend to respond to the whole post; I'm not trying to take anything out of context. ]

I agree that there is a persistent human impulse toward religion. I don't know if it's universal -- there are lots of atheists -- but it's pretty widespread, and it seems to persist down the centuries.

I also agree that there are ideologies that serve some of the same purposes as religions, for some people. Many non-religious people have a code of ethics that they follow. Some people follow dietary regimens (vegetarian or vegan, e.g.) that seem similar in their effect to the kosher laws, making eating a discipline of mindfulness. Some non-religious people have a personal philosophy of some sort that provides meaning in their life. So in those ways, I agree that there are ideas outside the "official" religions that can function in similar ways to religions in people's lives.

I think it's misstating it, though, to describe these philosophies as gods that people make sacrifices to. I acknowledge St Paul's turn of phrase in Philippians. Even so, I'd rather not refer to something as a sacrifice to a god unless I really mean that.

truefiction1 · Dec 1, 2021

PloverWing said:
[ Note: I'm quoting just this excerpt for brevity, but I intend to respond to the whole post; I'm not trying to take anything out of context. ]

I agree that there is a persistent human impulse toward religion. I don't know if it's universal -- there are lots of atheists -- but it's pretty widespread, and it seems to persist down the centuries.

I also agree that there are ideologies that serve some of the same purposes as religions, for some people. Many non-religious people have a code of ethics that they follow. Some people follow dietary regimens (vegetarian or vegan, e.g.) that seem similar in their effect to the kosher laws, making eating a discipline of mindfulness. Some non-religious people have a personal philosophy of some sort that provides meaning in their life. So in those ways, I agree that there are ideas outside the "official" religions that can function in similar ways to religions in people's lives.

I think it's misstating it, though, to describe these philosophies as gods that people make sacrifices to. I acknowledge St Paul's turn of phrase in Philippians. Even so, I'd rather not refer to something as a sacrifice to a god unless I really mean that.

So what of the many killings that took place on account of the ideologies of Fascism (the Nazis) and Marxism (the Communists)? Scholars of human culture, such as Earnest Becker, deemed these ideologies to be religions, and those who were murdered were understood to be sacrifices, complete with the shedding of human blood, for the sake of an imagined utopia (heaven on earth). Humans are killed in the name of something, are they not being sacrificed for the sake of something? Do those who perform these human sacrifices have to be consciously aware that they are performing human sacrifices at the bequest of demons in order for it to be so? St. Paul said that "all the gods of the gentiles are demons". The gentiles were probably not aware that their deities were actually demons, but this lack of awareness did not negate the reality, which was that they were worshipping and sacrificing to demons. Likewise, when an ideologue propagates human sacrifice in the name of the false thing that they believe in, are they not also in reality worshipping and sacrificing to demons whether they are aware of it or not?

SilverBear · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
God has a problem with those who take it upon themselves to kill, period. "Thou shall not kill" is a commandment. Abortion is killing. It kills children before they are able to be born.

yet God commands his followers kill others for dozens of reasons.

PloverWing · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Do those who perform these human sacrifices have to be consciously aware that they are performing human sacrifices at the bequest of demons in order for it to be so?

I would say so, yes.

truefiction1 · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
So what of the many killings that took place on account of the ideologies of Fascism (the Nazis) and Marxism (the Communists)? Scholars of human culture, such as Earnest Becker, deemed these ideologies to be religions, and those who were murdered were understood to be sacrifices, complete with the shedding of human blood, for the sake of an imagined utopia (heaven on earth). Humans are killed in the name of something, are they not being sacrificed for the sake of something? Do those who perform these human sacrifices have to be consciously aware that they are performing human sacrifices at the bequest of demons in order for it to be so? St. Paul said that "all the gods of the gentiles are demons". The gentiles were probably not aware that their deities were actually demons, but this lack of awareness did not negate the reality, which was that they were worshipping and sacrificing to demons. Likewise, when an ideologue propagates human sacrifice in the name of the false thing that they believe in, are they not also in reality worshipping and sacrificing to demons whether they are aware of it or not?

It seems reasonable to me, and entirely likely, that demons are being worshipped and sacrificed to by many who aren't even aware that they are doing it. Hence the saying of the Lord: "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". This He prayed while he was being sacrificed by them, on the Cross. But those who were responsible for sacrificing Him, whose works did He say that they were doing? In John 8:40-44 Christ claims that those who would have him killed were children of the devil, which means that the devil is their god. They thought they were children of Abraham, and of God. Their sacrifices were to demons, apparently.

truefiction1 · Dec 1, 2021

SilverBear said:
yet God commands his followers kill others for dozens of reasons.

When did God tell anyone to kill a human being by abortion?

SilverBear · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
If a pregnant woman is assaulted with violence and the violence causes the death of the fetus, it's been legally considered murder of the child inside the mother's womb, to varying degrees. So I think that to say that personhood was never granted to fetuses because it is literally and legally impossible is largely debatable. Since the earliest recorded history of Christianity, abortion was considered to be murder, and has been considered by the Church to be murder even by those who speculated that life/the soul began to exist sometime after conception. The killing of a fetus at any time after conception has always been condemned by the Church as an act of murder, and this evidence indicates that a person is "conceived" a human being, period. A person is not "born" a human being.

Actually no it was not considered murder until very recently. "there is evidence that some early Christians believed, as the Greeks did, in delayed ensoulment, or that a fetus does not have a soul until quickening, and therefore early abortion was not murder" OM Bakke When Children Became People: The Birth of Childhood in Early Christianity 1996
J. Hurse Abortion and Catholic Thought 2016

SilverBear · Dec 1, 2021

truefiction1 said:
And then, of course, there are late term abortions in which an electively aborted child is delivered via caesarian section so that the tissues are literally still living, or fresh, for the purpose of research. Just a few days more and the child would have been born, but because of a "choice" this person was deprived of being born. True story. Isn't the willful act of depriving a child of being born an act of murder? Sure seems like it to me.

yet unless the fetus is already dead such a procedure is illegal in the United States

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