Is the gospel more than 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

Bible Highlighter · Nov 30, 2021

Guojing said:
Scripture is like statistics, if you torture them long enough, you can use them to support any point you want.

So if you want to believe that Paul is also using your salvation doctrine, that is your choice.

But you are not explaining the verses that speak against your belief that is clearly in error here.

Guojing · Nov 30, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But you are not explaining the verses that speak against your belief that is clearly in error here.

As I said, I am not here to change your mind regarding your salvation doctrine.

I am happy just to understand what it really meant.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 30, 2021

Guojing said:
As I said, I am not here to change your mind regarding your salvation doctrine.

I am happy just to understand what it really meant.

We are told to earnestly contend for the faith. So I don’t understand why you would not want to convince me of your belief by explaining the verses I put forth to you. But I know the real reason why. I don’t believe you can explain the verses I have put forth to you with any rational logic by reading the verses plainly.

Guojing · Nov 30, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
We are told to earnestly contend for the faith. So I don’t understand why you would not want to convince me of your belief by explaining the verses I put forth to you. But I know the real reason why. I don’t believe you can explain the verses I have put forth to you with any rational logic by reading the verses plainly.

Once you participate in such bible discussions over the Internet long enough, you will realize this, people rarely change their minds here.

And that is perfectly understandable, once one is able to care enough for a doctrine to be able to type them out in words, they have formed that over many years of reflection.

So it is highly unlikely for people to change their minds just because a stranger over the Internet says something different, at least not until the long run.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 30, 2021

Guojing said:
Once you participate in such bible discussions over the Internet long enough, you will realize this, people rarely change their minds here.

And that is perfectly understandable, once one is able to care enough for a doctrine to be able to type them out in words, they have formed that over many years of reflection.

So it is highly unlikely for people to change their minds just because a stranger over the Internet says something different, at least not until the long run.

God’s Word will not return void. Don’t do it for me, but do it to help the reader who is passing by searching for the truth. But again…. I know why you really are not offering any explanation on the verses I put forth to you. It’s because there is no real rational explanation to give. The verses I put forth to you mean what they say.

Guojing · Dec 1, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
God’s Word will not return void. Don’t do it for me, but do it to help the reader who is passing by searching for the truth. But again…. I know why you really are not offering any explanation on the verses I put forth to you. It’s because there is no real rational explanation to give. The verses I put forth to you mean what they say.

Please don't presume you are the only one with the truth

BNR32FAN · Dec 1, 2021

Guojing said:
You can go to the Greek of course, but I prefer to let the Bible interpret itself.

Romans 4:5 had Paul clearly distinguishing the belief and the works aspect from the term "faith".

You have a different interpretation of that verse?

Like I said it’s not the works that are taken into consideration but the motivation behind the works.

BNR32FAN · Dec 1, 2021

Guojing said:
It was not James who said that but the author of Hebrews

James would say Abraham was justified when he offered Issac

James used Issac’s offering as one example of Abraham’s works. Abraham was already counted as righteous long before he offer Issac on the alter the day he left for the promised land.

BNR32FAN · Dec 1, 2021

Fervent said:
Jesus told a parable along those lines in Matthew 21:28-32. The issue in James isn't that Abraham wouldn't be justified by his faith, but that faith isn't lip-service. :

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”

“The first,” they answered.

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Jesus told them that tax collectors and prostitutes would enter the kingdom of God before them because they got the answer right not because they got it wrong. The message here is that they knew better but they weren’t practicing what they were preaching.

Bruce Leiter · Dec 1, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Is the gospel more than 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

In regards to certain verses (below) that refer to the gospel: This would not be the case.

While Galatians 2:14, Romans 1:16-17, and Romans 2:16 appear to teach additional details for the gospel at first glance, this is simply not the case.

I was reading the context of Galatians 2:14 and Romans 2:16 and I figured it out in what they are saying. These are not different aspects (or new additional details) of the gospel being described in these verses. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is still the gospel. The context of Galatians 2:14 is verse 16.

For Paul said,
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16).

Peter and Barnabas were trying to be justified by the works of the Law of Moses by trying to compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews (See Galatians 2:14). So when Peter and Barnabas did not walk according to the truth of the gospel, it was in their trying to be justified by the Law.

As for Romans 2:16:
This also is dealing with those who are trying to be justified by the Law. Jesus will judge the secrets of men according to Paul’s revealed gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Which men? Those who are trying to be circumcised instead of trusting in Jesus.

Romans 2:26 says
“Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?”

Romans 3:1 says
“What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

Romans 1:16-17 is now an easy one to figure out. It is talking about Justification (Which is our Initial and Foundational Salvation). It is being saved by God’s grace without the works of the Law. For when a person accepts the gospel and is broken, they are changed. They will have a new heart with new desires. They will be guided by the Holy Spirit to obey God’s Word. To love God and others will truly be possible. But it is only by the gospel mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. It is only by God’s grace and mercy.

Consider my insight after decades of study and preaching on this subject. Jesus in Matthew 5 affirmed the Old Testament law, so what is the solution? Here's mine, which I think can be defended biblically. The external forms of the Old Testament laws have disappeared when Jesus died on the cross. For example, the unclean foods (we need to overcome inner uncleanness), bloody sacrifices (Jesus' perfect sacrifice), and the Sabbath (Jesus' Lord's Day because of his resurrection). The inner meaning of the law continues on. For example, God's Ten Commandments present us with inner principles of preserving life, not taking it ("You shall not murder"); keeping sex only in marriage ("You shall not commit adultery"); and preserving the truth ("You shall not give false testimony").

Guojing · Dec 1, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
James used Issac’s offering as one example of Abraham’s works. Abraham was already counted as righteous long before he offer Issac on the alter the day he left for the promised land.

Notice I used the term justified, rather than "counted as righteous"?

That is exactly what James was distinguishing in James 2:21-24.

If you read what he is saying there literally, without reading into the passage, he is making a difference between righteous and justified

Guojing · Dec 1, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Like I said it’s not the works that are taken into consideration but the motivation behind the works.

Do you notice what the Lord said to Cain, all the way back in Genesis 4:6-7 KJV?

If you read it literally, without reading into the passage, is God giving a second chance to Cain by telling him to "do" what is right, rather than "believe" what is right?

Danthemailman · Dec 1, 2021

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. That's not hard to understand. Just hard for many people to ACCEPT.

BNR32FAN · Dec 2, 2021

Guojing said:
Notice I used the term justified, rather than "counted as righteous"?

That is exactly what James was distinguishing in James 2:21-24.

If you read what he is saying there literally, without reading into the passage, he is making a difference between righteous and justified

the very definition of the word justified is being counted as righteous.

BNR32FAN · Dec 2, 2021

Guojing said:
Do you notice what the Lord said to Cain, all the way back in Genesis 4:6-7 KJV?

If you read it literally, without reading into the passage, is God giving a second chance to Cain by telling him to "do" what is right, rather than "believe" what is right?

But doing what is right from the wrong motivation won’t save someone.

“And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Guojing · Dec 2, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
the very definition of the word justified is being counted as righteous.

For us in the Body of Christ, that is definitely true.

I am just repeating what James is saying in James 2:21-24 to the 12 tribes of Israel, and taking it literally.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

If you do that for the above passage, you will notice James distinguish between the 2. But if you prefer to read into the passage, I am fine too.

Guojing · Dec 2, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
But doing what is right from the wrong motivation won’t save someone.

“And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You seem to have an issue with reading a passage literally?

BNR32FAN · Dec 2, 2021

Guojing said:
For us in the Body of Christ, that is definitely true.

I am just repeating what James is saying in James 2:21-24 to the 12 tribes of Israel, and taking it literally.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

If you do that for the above passage, you will notice James distinguish between the 2. But if you prefer to read into the passage, I am fine too.

I believe the usage James was intending was “to be shown or evinced as being righteous” which is one of the definitions of the Greek word being used.

BNR32FAN · Dec 2, 2021

Guojing said:
You seem to have an issue with reading a passage literally?

The Old Testament taught justification by works, justification by faith wasn’t revealed until the New Testament. That was the stumbling block for the Jews. So you have to look at the scriptures as a whole message taking into consideration the whole message.

Guojing · Dec 2, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
The Old Testament taught justification by works, justification by faith wasn’t revealed until the New Testament. That was the stumbling block for the Jews. So you have to look at the scriptures as a whole message taking into consideration the whole message.

I am asking you what God told Cain in Genesis 4:6-7.

There is no Old Testament, nor were there Jews, in Genesis 4.

Is the gospel more than 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

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