Grapes in Israel are harvested in the fall. Passover occurs in the spring. Unfermented grape juice will not last that long. Also, the swelling of wineskins occurs during the fermenting process.
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It is permissive for Christians to eat meat today
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Grapes in Israel are harvested in the fall. Passover occurs in the spring. Unfermented grape juice will not last that long. Also, the swelling of wineskins occurs during the fermenting process.
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So they got drunk on grape juice?
"And do not get drunk with wine, which is debauchery, but be filled by the Spirit," Ephesians 5:18
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Reluctant Theologian
אַבְרָהָם
Respectfully I recognise your SDA bend with the theory the word 'wine' didn't always refer to an alcoholic drink: I personally just don't think that theory is defensible in the light of so many texts that highlight the joyful and stimulant effect of wine; the fact that bursting wine (oinos) shows fermentation, and the following verses clearly showing Jesus was drinking (wine):
Luke 7:33-34
For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine (oinos), and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
Or Romans 14:21
It is good not to eat meat or drink wine (oinos) or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
If wine (oinos) would not contain alcohol it could never have been a stumbling issue. The same for the association with sinners in Luke 7.
Clearly alcoholic wine is used in Jesus parables, is associated with Jesus himself, or was drunk by the believers addressed in Romans. My point is not to prove the word could never be used for non-alcoholic grape juice; it is to prove the alcoholic version is all over the place
1st century Judaism is not known for its anti-alcohol stance; neither does Jesus teach against it (He didn't introduce new dietary laws).
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Isabelle13
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Spirit told me to avoid meat so i became vegetarian.
To torture innocent animals and then kill them is anti-Christian to me. This is what animals go through with todays factory farming. There is no heart, no compassion and no light.
This industry should not be supported.
I can absolutely understand if some people need meat to survive. But honestly how many? Very few today. So many alternatives. To kill someone innocent because of something so self-absorbed as taste for meat is very dark in my world.
I do not mean that all people who do are dark. The indoctrination is strong. We are bombarded with propaganda.
I recommend people to think deep about this.
The difference between meat for survival vs taste. It could be a test.
I
To torture innocent animals and then kill them is anti-Christian to me. This is what animals go through with todays factory farming. There is no heart, no compassion and no light.
This industry should not be supported.
I can absolutely understand if some people need meat to survive. But honestly how many? Very few today. So many alternatives. To kill someone innocent because of something so self-absorbed as taste for meat is very dark in my world.
I do not mean that all people who do are dark. The indoctrination is strong. We are bombarded with propaganda.
I recommend people to think deep about this.
The difference between meat for survival vs taste. It could be a test.
I
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You've said in two different threads "Spirit told me...." just as I quoted.
Which spirit are you talking about?
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FredVB
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@Isabella13, it could be a test for people these days, you are right, and godliness is involved with how we choose, in things.
The animal foods represent an inefficient use of plant protein in that animals have to consume many pounds of grain or forage to produce one pound of meat. For example, in 2003, Cornell University Professors David Pimentel and Marcia Pimentel showed that it takes 13 kilograms (a kilogram is 2.2 pounds) of grain and 30 kilograms of forage to produce one kilogram of beef; 21 kilograms of grain and 30 kilograms of forage to produce a kilogram of lamb; 5.9 kilograms of grain to produce a kilogram of pork; 3.8 kilograms of grain to produce a kilogram of turkey; 2.3 kilograms of grain to produce a kilogram of chicken, and 11 kilograms of grain to produce one kilogram of eggs. Livestock in the United States consume 7 times as much grain as is consumed by the entire U.S. human population and the grains fed to U.S. livestock could feed 840 million humans who had a plant-based diet.
Likewise, animal agriculture involves an inefficient use of water. The Pimentel study states that one kilogram of animal protein requires about 100 times more water than does 1 kilogram of grain protein. According to another, more recent study, one kilogram of beef requires 15,415 liters of water (a gallon is 3.78 liters); sheep meat (lamb and mutton) 10,412 liters; pork 5,988 liters; and chicken 4,325 liters. A kilogram of apples requires 822 liters of water; bananas 790 liters; cabbage 237 liters; tomatoes 214 liters; potatoes 287 liters; and rice 2,497 liters. Most estimates vary between 1,000 to 2,000 gallons of water needed to produce a gallon of milk.
With so much grown for feeding animals used in agriculture it leaves more people starving to death when it could be reversed, there is harmfulness to natural environments, use of more resources, water and land, and resulting in more pollution from animal waste, and contribution to greenhouse gases that cause climate change, that could all be reversed with not using anything from animals still.
Animal agriculture the main cause of critical issues to our world, that will continue worsening things as much unless we really change a lot right away. With the sustainability issues we need to address avoiding anything using animals and growing what is needed for food from vegetation is necessary.
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/humans-destroyed-83-of-wildlife-report/
www.forksoverknives.com
With continuing to have meat and animal products our lives will be shortened from it. Diet related diseases, epidemic in our culture but not at all in societies apart from modern industrial western culture, include cancers, heart attacks and strokes, hypertension, diabetes, and many problems such as rheumatoid arthritis and much more. There are studies that can be checked and lives have really been saved with change to the healthy way. Animal products have very addicting substances. People do not readily choose to give it up. We can still be much healthier, and youthful in meaningful ways, with good variety of vegetables and fruits, and whole grains, and no animal products or processed foods. The healthy way with just whole food plant-based meals is known to doctors and I see many sites that back that up, there is plenty of information for it. I would not say much for being healthy with being vegan if there was not the healthy way, finding it was revolutionary for me.
Animal products have very addicting substances. People do not readily choose to give it up. I managed still. I never tire of using hummus, and I use a whole lot of hummus. With this, I never miss any kind of cheese or alternative for it. And I make a great special sauce with it. I had given up having meat earlier and it was not hard after having diminished the amount of meat I ate in any period. It has been a straight eight years from when I started using hummus shortly after choosing to just have vegan food, and finding it before I found vegan cheese, and then not feeling a need for that alternative.
The animal foods represent an inefficient use of plant protein in that animals have to consume many pounds of grain or forage to produce one pound of meat. For example, in 2003, Cornell University Professors David Pimentel and Marcia Pimentel showed that it takes 13 kilograms (a kilogram is 2.2 pounds) of grain and 30 kilograms of forage to produce one kilogram of beef; 21 kilograms of grain and 30 kilograms of forage to produce a kilogram of lamb; 5.9 kilograms of grain to produce a kilogram of pork; 3.8 kilograms of grain to produce a kilogram of turkey; 2.3 kilograms of grain to produce a kilogram of chicken, and 11 kilograms of grain to produce one kilogram of eggs. Livestock in the United States consume 7 times as much grain as is consumed by the entire U.S. human population and the grains fed to U.S. livestock could feed 840 million humans who had a plant-based diet.
Likewise, animal agriculture involves an inefficient use of water. The Pimentel study states that one kilogram of animal protein requires about 100 times more water than does 1 kilogram of grain protein. According to another, more recent study, one kilogram of beef requires 15,415 liters of water (a gallon is 3.78 liters); sheep meat (lamb and mutton) 10,412 liters; pork 5,988 liters; and chicken 4,325 liters. A kilogram of apples requires 822 liters of water; bananas 790 liters; cabbage 237 liters; tomatoes 214 liters; potatoes 287 liters; and rice 2,497 liters. Most estimates vary between 1,000 to 2,000 gallons of water needed to produce a gallon of milk.
With so much grown for feeding animals used in agriculture it leaves more people starving to death when it could be reversed, there is harmfulness to natural environments, use of more resources, water and land, and resulting in more pollution from animal waste, and contribution to greenhouse gases that cause climate change, that could all be reversed with not using anything from animals still.
Animal agriculture the main cause of critical issues to our world, that will continue worsening things as much unless we really change a lot right away. With the sustainability issues we need to address avoiding anything using animals and growing what is needed for food from vegetation is necessary.
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/humans-destroyed-83-of-wildlife-report/
www.forksoverknives.com
With continuing to have meat and animal products our lives will be shortened from it. Diet related diseases, epidemic in our culture but not at all in societies apart from modern industrial western culture, include cancers, heart attacks and strokes, hypertension, diabetes, and many problems such as rheumatoid arthritis and much more. There are studies that can be checked and lives have really been saved with change to the healthy way. Animal products have very addicting substances. People do not readily choose to give it up. We can still be much healthier, and youthful in meaningful ways, with good variety of vegetables and fruits, and whole grains, and no animal products or processed foods. The healthy way with just whole food plant-based meals is known to doctors and I see many sites that back that up, there is plenty of information for it. I would not say much for being healthy with being vegan if there was not the healthy way, finding it was revolutionary for me.
Animal products have very addicting substances. People do not readily choose to give it up. I managed still. I never tire of using hummus, and I use a whole lot of hummus. With this, I never miss any kind of cheese or alternative for it. And I make a great special sauce with it. I had given up having meat earlier and it was not hard after having diminished the amount of meat I ate in any period. It has been a straight eight years from when I started using hummus shortly after choosing to just have vegan food, and finding it before I found vegan cheese, and then not feeling a need for that alternative.
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FredVB
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Not being under the law means not being subject to judgment from the law, that is what is enabled for us in Christ, the law is still carried out. Morality applies, the law showed it, and commandments do not become exempt just because we are not subject to the judgment that Christ bore for us instead. Those not in Christ are still subject to judgment.
The ideal is the perfect will of Yahweh God. But who cares for coming to that? It is in Heaven as it was in the beginning, when there was the Garden provided for us. No killing and no death was involved. Now, we choose, are we going to go on involved in killing and death, or not?
There is not the unhealthy way with the perfect will of God. God shows care for creatures in the Bible, and we are liable for not showing the care, Proverbs 12:10. See Forks Over Knives, the healthiest way for any of us, avoiding many health problems widespread in our society.
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FredVB
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RDKirk said:
This response was with a dismissive quip in which essential explanation, the torture and slaughter of animals who are innocent, was not addressed. If it is thought using products from that process which continues can be with godliness, reconsider that with a look at Proverbs 12:10. That explains what spirit one has.
The significance of the creation account being right is that God made the world in perfection, and there was no killing and constant death in cycles to get to that. God made this world perfectly and there was no fault or shortcoming in it. The troubles in the world came from curses on it, when there was rebellion and falling to sin, with sins continuing, from humanity.
Our change to vegan living can be for the healthier way, with what we eat being whole foods, to have what is better for us, that most miss on, and would not believe, while remaining in ignorance about it.
Forks Over Knives (2011)
See www.forksoverknives.com.
Modern pioneers like T. Colin Cambell, PhD; Caldwell Esselstyn, MD; Dean Ornish, MD; John McDougall, MD; Neal Barnard, MD; and others are leading the charge. Thanks to these doctors and researchers, along with an emerging body of scientific evidence from all corners, we now know that a whole-food, plant-based diet is more powerful at preventing and treating chronic diseases than any medication or procedure. We are so convinced by the evidence that we believe if this diet came in a pill, it would be heralded on the front pages of newspapers and magazines around the world for its effectiveness.
Here are just a few of the significant life-changing results you may expect:
Prevent and reverse the leading chronic ailments. A whole-food, plant-based diet can prevent, halt, and even reverse heart disease and diabetes. Other diseases that are also positively impacted by this type of diet include: high cholesterol, high blood pressure, obesity, and overall mortality. Cancer is also significantly affected by this diet. In fact, the foods that make up this diet are the exact same foods that were recommended in the first "surviving cancer" dietary recommendations. There is also evidence that a plant-based diet may reduce the risk of diverticular disease, gallstones, rheumatoid arthritis, gout, and kidney disease. Furthermore, after switching to a plant-based diet, people routinely report experiencing or seeing in others improvements in a range of ailments, including osteoporosis, arthritis, headaches, acne, asthma, sexual dysfunction, reflux, lupus, inflammatory bowel disease, constipation, irritable bowel syndrome, dementia, Alzheimer's, multiple sclerosis, infertility, insomnia, and sleep apnea. They even find themselves experiencing fewer or less intense colds, viruses, and allergies.
Reach your ideal weight. Our friend Doug Lisle likes to point out that humans and their domesticated pets are the only earthly creatures that suffer from being overweight and obese ... in spite of the fact that we're also the only creatures who practice portion control! Why is this the case? It's simple. All the other animals on earth are eating foods that are appropriate for their species. If we also eat foods that are appropriate for our species -- whole, plant-based foods -- then we, too, will be able to eat without portion control and will naturally reach a comfortable weight.
Improve mental clarity Eating a whole-food, plant-based diet improves cognitive function and protects against dementia and Alzheimer's disease. Most people experience greater clarity of thought, improved ability to concentrate, and better memory.
Experience only positive effects, not "side effects". These can include better mood, sounder sleep, improved bowel function, and more vibrant skin. You will have more energy to do the things you love, like playing with your children or grandchildren, biking, gardening, walking, swimming. You may even want to exercise more. By contrast, medical procedures and medications can have all sorts of major unintended negative consequences.
Quoted from Forks Over Knives Plan.
Destructiveness to this earth is happening from us and it is largely from animal agriculture with the demand for animal products among us, this is confirmed, while God hates that destructiveness. Revelation 11:18. Now we really need to have less demand on the world. It is very urgent now, and the urgency is growing.
Humans Have Broken a Fundamental Law of the Ocean - NewsBreak
God did not create sentient animal creatures in this world to just use as food continuously, they desire to live too, and feel and have terror of their oncoming death, use of food from them is NOT better for our health, and it is using a lot more resources and is worse for the environment. It simply is not according to the perfect will of God and God is not intending for use of animals for food to last, there are scriptures showing this and none showing it was to keep continuing.
The animals could have worthwhile lives, those which are among the millions and the billions in animal agricultural industry are in miserable conditions for just a small portion of what could be a natural lifespan for them and go through torturous processes while mere babes just overgrown to be prepared and slaughtered, and the birds used in the industry have no regulation for protection and no limit to the suffering they are put through.
I can't stop killing every being, but I can choose with what I buy at a store to eliminate contribution to demand for animal products, that is most meaningful.
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If a vegan diet were what the human body is currently fitted for (post Fall), then somewhere on earth there would be vegan human social groups. There are none. There have been none. There have been, however, social groups that are almost purely carnivore.
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True but they had a process for preserving Juice and simply letting it ferment does not produce wine - it produces very unsavory rotten grapes -- you need a kind of leaven called "wine yeast" for fermented wine.
Passover is part of the feast of unleavened bread - and a week prior the Jews would search the entire house to ensure nothing with any form of leaven was in the house.
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I'ts in scripture -- Lev 11- are you asking why God would bother to mention it???
Might you be "disgusted" that God would mention it??
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Actually, there is an identifiable biological determinant regarding dietary intakes of mammals. Many animals such as cows have extremely long dietary tracts (cows have four stomachs which permit them to regurgitate the fodder and chew every last nutrient out of it) which are fitted for a plant diet only. At the other extreme are mammals with extremely short digestive tracts which mean they need to have a diet with nutrient-packed food. These animals are carnivores such as lions, tigers, and bears (oh my!). They will perish just as quickly eating only vegetable matter even as herbivores will perish if fed only meat.
In between are omnivores with moderately long digestive tracts which can process both vegetable matter and meat relatively effectively. Humans are omnivores, like it or not. Humans do fairly well on a meat diet and fairly well on a plant-based diet, but a balanced diet of the two sources works best for humans.
Curiously, there are a few animals which have the digestive tract of a carnivore, but which eat only plants. Two that come to mind are pandas (which are really in their own category) and koalas. The pandas only eat one particular species of bamboo and spend virtually all of their waking moments to eating bamboo in order to sustain themselves. Koalas, likewise, eat eucalyptus leaves only. They have the advantage that eucalyptus leaves ferment in their digestive tracts, producing alcohol, which leaves them in a perpetual state of inebriation.
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Innocent animals are not tortured. They are killed as humanely as possible.
"To kill someone innocent because of something so self-absorbed as taste for meat is very dark in my world." Agreed. We should not be cannibals! BTW, an animal is not "someone".
How do you feel about murdering innocent vegetables? They are ripped from the ground and often eaten RAW!
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How do you know that Jesus did not drink fermented wine? Wine is, by definition, fermented.
There are no foods that God condemns under the New Covenant.
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True in English -- not true in Greek or Hebrew. The Bible has the term for "New Wine" specific to fresh grape juice.
"Yayin and tirosh from the Hebrew, oinos and gleukos from the Greek, and vinum from the Latin are all words that were translated into “wine” in the Bible.
The word tirosh and gleukos refers to the grape itself, a newly finished product of grape such as grape juice, boiled grape juice (which is called must), or a cluster of grapes.
The other three words have a dual meaning. They can refer to grape juice or to fermented grape juice whereas tirosh and gleukos never refer to an alcoholic substance.
Even though by definition tirosh and gleukos cannot mean an alcoholic wine, we are going to look at some verses translated “wine” and prove that they cannot possibly be referring to an alcoholic beverage ."
They boiled the new wine to keep it from putrifying - and preserve it for later.
By contrast they used wine yeast to make wine.
Mark 2:22 No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”
Context in some cases where it is ambiguous is needed to know which type it is.
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Actually new wine is not strictly speaking fresh grape juice, rather it is wine that has not undergone a complete course of fermentation. There is a world of difference between that and the pasteurized grape juice which has no potential for fermentation, unlike new wine (because pasteurization kills the yeast). It is an error to use pasteurized grape juice on a par with using white wine (which some churches use).
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