Is baptism a requirement?
- Thread starter rturner76
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Ligurian
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Baptism:
To discover who the Father sent
John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
To repent for the Kingdom of Heaven
John 1:23 He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
Matthew 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, He departed into Galilee; ... 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
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Baptism seems kinda like an Elusian Mystery.
Pays Atlantiques Décrits Par Homère by Theophile Cailleux, describes the process as one of washing in sea water, and then rinsing in the river which flowed down to the sea... to wash your sins away. I don't think his books were ever translated into English. (The overall theme probably discouraged that from happening. He, like other authors, think Homer must have brought the Iliad from the North Sea region... and thinks Atlantis was also there. I'm not saying he's wrong about that last part, given the lost land of Lyonesse... and the Rosicrucian theme of the two Michael's mounts acting as hidden pillars of Hercules on either side of the English Channel. There are some fairly startling pics in the Jennings book Rosicrucians, and the Wash at the Troad from books of Cailleux and Wilkins, etc.) In any case, the process described by Cailleux regarding the Eleusis baptism is worth the read. Several things in the New Testament are in pre-Greek "Mythology"... History became legend and legend became myth--Lord of the Rings.
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concretecamper
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the good thief was saved under the Old Covenant. He was not Baptized under any circumstance.
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If we truly love God, then we will obey "Every word" that proceeds out of his mouth (Matthew 4:4). Baptism is one of those words. In order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord. Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized in the name of Jesus.
"And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:15-16). Listen people! Baptism is a commandment or requirement for salvation.
Anyone that is not baptized is a person with their sins yet upon them, because it is the baptism that washes away our past sins. "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16): Remember, before his crucifixion, Jesus told his disciples that his time (death) is not yet come; He also informed them that their time (death) can come at any moment.
Pay close attention to Jesus is saying in John 20: 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. So now let’s get an example of how to do this Sisters and Brothers.
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38).
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Have you yourself repented completely and totally of all sin and transgression and become obedient to each and every commandment of God in the Bible?
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ViaCrucis
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His salvation occurred while the Old Covenant was still technically in effect, as our Lord had not yet died. But I am uncomfortable with treating salvation as being fundamentally different for those before our Lord than those after our Lord. Abraham, after all, was not saved under the Old Covenant, but the New; for we are told that Abraham had faith and it was accounted to him as righteousness; our Lord Himself says that Abraham looked forward to Christ's day. The same is true of Moses and indeed all the Patriarchs and Prophets.
The Old Covenant has no provisions for salvation, it wasn't given for that purpose. Thus none was ever saved "under" the Old Covenant; rather they were saved under the New. Even before the New was enacted by the death and resurrection of our Lord, it is by His shed blood and atoning work that any one is saved. Whether in the Old Testament or the New. Whether we talk of the Patriarchs or of ourselves today.
To that end, I'd argue that the thief was saved without Baptism because A) Jesus had not yet instituted Holy Baptism and B) The power of salvation is God's to wield absolutely as He so sees fit, and thus when Christ says, "I speak honestly to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" we can trust in the word of Christ here.
That same word, "You will be with Me" is the word we receive in Holy Baptism. Through Baptism we are born again, receive the full remission of our sins, are united to Christ, to His death, burial, and resurrection. And thus to whomever the Lord says, "You will be with Me" to whomever the Lord says, "Your sins are forgiven", to whomever the Lord declares His own, are indeed His, are forgiven, and indeed have eternal life. Baptism is this same word of Christ, in visible form,
"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the Church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." - Ephesians 5:25-27
"'Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.' Why does He not say, 'You are clean through the baptism wherewith you have been washed', but 'through the word which I have spoken unto you,' save only that in the water also it is the word that cleanses? Take away the word, and the water is neither more nor less than water. The word is added to the element, and there results the Sacrament, as if itself also a kind of visible word." - St. Augustine of Hippo, Tractates on John, Tractate 80.3
-CryptoLutheran
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Actually, baptism existed within Judaism for centuries before Christ. John the Baptist developed a particular form of it and Jesus also developed His form, which His disciples were doing during his ministry. John 4:1 Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),
There has been much discussion regarding the nature of Jesus' baptism versus that of John.
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ViaCrucis
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Yes. But the topic is Christian Baptism, not Jewish tevilah which is the antecedent of Christian Baptism. In the same way, nobody ever partook of the Lord's Supper before Christ instituted it at His Last Supper. Though the Jews had been receiving bread and wine as part of the Passover since their deliverance from slavery in Egypt.
The former points toward the latter. The things of the Old Covenant point to the things of the New.
We don't have a baptism for repentance, like John; and we don't have "baptisms" like in Judaism. We have the one Baptism instituted by Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of sins, new birth, and the full application of Christ's saving and atoning work. No where does God attach the promise of forgiveness to any of the ritual washings in Judaism, or to John's baptism (John's baptism did not remit sins, it was for repentance, not forgiveness).
-CryptoLutheran
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Perhaps you missed my point. My point was simply that "Christian" baptism was practiced by the disciples of Jesus Christ during his ministry on earth and may not be the same baptism (in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) practiced after Pentecost. What do you think?
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Yep, so now since you ask that should give you courage to get moving! Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24-27) (v.24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That was the Lord’s burden, to die on the cross for the sins of man. Now as we read earlier every man must bear his own burden, and what is your burden? (v.25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You must give up your life in this world; you must not get caught up in the cares of this world. You must bring forth-good fruits of faith by keeping God’s commandments, statues, and judgments. (v.26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous and the Saints from the Sinners. (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved.
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Out of curiosity, are you affiliated with the Bible Christian denomination in Great Britain?
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ViaCrucis
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The Gospels tell us that Jesus' disciples baptized during His earthly ministry, but it's hard to call that Christian Baptism since what is called Christian Baptism is what Christ instituted after His resurrection. We call baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, for the forgiveness of sins, etc "Christian Baptism" to distinguish the Christian Sacrament from ritual washing in water as practiced in Judaism, including the work of St. John the Baptist.
I would assert that the disciples baptizing is more closely aligned with what John was doing, and it isn't until after the resurrection that our Lord institutes His Sacrament of Baptism, calling His Church to--in His bodily absence by way of His Ascension--make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. And thus the first recorded baptism (i.e. Christian Baptism) occurs on Pentecost when we read that "about three thousand were added to the Church".
-CryptoLutheran
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I agree with you with the caveat that we really don't know exactly what the doctrinal content of the baptism by Christ's disciples during His ministry entailed. We do know that it somehow differed from John's baptism, but not how it differed.
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"But when they believed Phillip preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." hen Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:13-17):
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:13-17):
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Thanks. I did not think so, since they have pretty much died out in Great Britain, like the Society of Friends (Quakers).
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Fervent
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Baptism today serves the purpose that circumcision did for the Israelite. It is a sign of the covenant with God, but just as to truly be a member of Israel they must be circumcised in spirit not just the flesh the outward sign of baptism is but a physical representation of the spiritual reality of baptism. The water and the words don't mark our entry, but those who are in attendance are reminded of the covenant God has made with us in the blood of Jesus.
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