Can Salvation be lost?

A_Thinker

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Matthew 7 describes believers who thought they did wonderful works in His name and yet Jesus told them to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (sin). So if a believer does good, and yet they also justify sin, they are not going to make it.
Matthew 7 describes persons who claimed (to Jesus) that they did many wonderful WORKS ... in His name. So ... these thought (at best) that they were part of Jesus' kingdom ... because of their PERFORMANCE.

Jesus clarified their misunderstanding ... by explaining that He NEVER KNEW THEM. So ... it was not a matter of what they did ... but rather a matter of RELATIONSHIP to Jesus. That relationship is gifted by FAITH.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
 
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A_Thinker

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“Every believer sins ... and yet, is still saved by the grace of God.” ~ A Thinker.
Honestly ... you cited me as saying a lot more than this.

Perhaps you would like to compare ...

" ... you basically say that no believer cannot stop committing grievous sins this side of Heaven. In your view a believer will always commit grievous sin accidentally their whole lives (Which means godly living and righteous living is thus … thrown out the door)."
 
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A_Thinker

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You said… “of course not” to…. My question… do accursed people go to Heaven?
... and, I was quite clear ... that the commission of sin does not necessarily denote that one does not love Jesus. I am quite sure that I used Peter ... as a biblical example of this ...
 
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... and, I was quite clear ... that the commission of sin does not necessarily denote that one does not love Jesus. I am quite sure that I used Peter ... as a biblical example of this ...

Sorry, Peter is not an example in defending your view of a sin and still be saved plan of salvation. You believe you there is no Christian who does not sin and thus.... they will sin again accidentally as a matter of fact. Yet, they are still magically saved somehow because they have a belief alone in Jesus as their Savior. As I told you before, there is a huge difference between stumbling on the road to recovery and eventually overcoming the sin of alcoholism vs. saying I will always accidentally slip up into alcoholism in the future the rest of my life.
 
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Honestly ... you cited me as saying a lot more than this.

Perhaps you would like to compare ...

" ... you basically say that no believer cannot stop committing grievous sins this side of Heaven. In your view a believer will always commit grievous sin accidentally their whole lives (Which means godly living and righteous living is thus … thrown out the door)."

You think all sin condemns. So that would cover the grievous sin part (even if you don't believe there are sins not unto death and sins unto death outside of 1 John 5:16-17). Again, you said, I quote:

“Every believer sins ... and yet, is still saved by the grace of God.”
~ A Thinker.

Again, this suggests that no believer can stop sinning accidentally this side of Heaven because you are saying that every believer sins (implying all believers). Yet, they are still saved by God's grace as you said. So how is this really different than those who set out to sin and think they are saved? A person who is addicted to a particular sin may struggle with that sin, and yet, that if they never overcome that sin it merely shows that they love their sin more than God. So sin is their real master and not God.
 
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A_Thinker

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You think all sin condemns. So that would cover the grievous sin part (even if you don't believe there are sins not unto death and sins unto death outside of 1 John 5:16-17).
So ... you don't believe that all sin condemns ?

So what you do with Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death ... " ???
 
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No ... I believe in God's grace ... which is quite miraculous ...

You can believe in it all you like... but if it is not how the Bible describes it, then that is an imaginary grace and not the real deal. For God cannot agree with our thinking that we can sin and still be saved on some level. Salvation does not work like that. God is good and holy, and just in all He does.
 
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So ... you don't believe that all sin condemns ?

So what you do with Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death ... " ???

In context, what sin does Paul refer to when he writes his letter to the Romans? He refers to sins that God condemns (See: Romans 1:28-32).

You can check out my biblical case for certain sins not leading unto spiritual death in this CF thread here:

Sins Not Unto Death
 
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A_Thinker

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You can believe in it all you like... but if it is not how the Bible describes it, then that is an imaginary grace and not the real deal. For God cannot agree with our thinking that we can sin and still be saved on some level. Salvation does not work like that. God is good and holy, and just in all He does.
You make salvation meritorious ... when God is quite clear that there is nothing we can do to merit salvation.

That's the entire message of the OT, ... that we (in ourselves) don't have what it takes to merit God's favor. That's what the whole failure of Israel is about.

And in the NT, Jesus comes ... bringing GRACE (i.e. the forgiveness of sins) ... and, thus, atonement with God.

God makes us His children through the righteousness and the blood of His Son Jesus. Our righteousness doesn't count for anything anymore ... because it simply cannot compare to that of Christ's. It would only condemn us anyway ... as it is nothing more than filthy rags.

We are saved through God's love, and Christ's righteousness, and our faith. That is our part. God has prepared works for His children, but they are works borne out of salvation ... and not at all meritorious of salvation.

As Paul writes to the believers at Ephesus ...

Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace are you saved;))

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
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A_Thinker

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For God cannot agree with our thinking that we can sin and still be saved on some level.
Of course God doesn't agree with our thinking. We're dust, ... and God hasn't forgotten that, even if we have ...

Psalm 103

13 As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities them that fear him.

14 For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.
 
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You make salvation meritorious ... when God is quite clear that there is nothing we can do to merit salvation.

Nobody can initially save themselves by their works alone without God’s grace. A person cannot earn salvation by works when they first come to God so as to be saved. But neither can a person later turn God’s grace into a license to sin and disobedience, either.

Merit definition:

The quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.​

Source:
(Oxford Dictionary):
MERIT English Definition and Meaning | Lexico.com

Does the Bible teach that you have to be good or worthy to enter the Kingdom?

Yes, it does.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
 
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That's the entire message of the OT, ... that we (in ourselves) don't have what it takes to merit God's favor. That's what the whole failure of Israel is about.

No it isn’t. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for ignoring the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy.

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Matthew 23:23).

“But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Luke 11:42).

Yes, they needed God’s grace by accepting Jesus as their Messiah, but another problem of the Jews is that they did not obey Him.

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” (John 8:47).
 
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God makes us His children through the righteousness and the blood of His Son Jesus.

While we declare His righteousness for the remission of past sins through faith in his blood (Romans 3:25), we also need to walk in the light as He is in the light so that the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse us from all sin, too.

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).​

Walking in the light = Loving your brother by the indirect wording found in 1 John 2:9-11.
So yes. We have to believe in His blood for salvation, but we have to love our brother ALSO in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin, too. Well, that’s if you believe this verse in your Bible.
Also see 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15.
 
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Our righteousness doesn't count for anything anymore ... because it simply cannot compare to that of Christ's. It would only condemn us anyway ... as it is nothing more than filthy rags.

When you read Isaiah 64:6, you also have to read the verse above it that says,

“Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness,…” (Isaiah 64:5).​

God meets him that rejoices and works righteousness.
So obviously the… “our righteousness are as filthy rags” is in reference to one striving to do good outside of God’s instructions. Those are the kind of righteous deeds that are like filthy rags.
 
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God makes us His children through the righteousness and the blood of His Son Jesus. Our righteousness doesn't count for anything anymore ...

Easily refuted if you just read and believe John 5:29 that says,

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

Or if you read and believe the apostle Paul who says,

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).
 
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Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace are you saved;))

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to Initial Salvation and Foundational Salvation. For we have been quickened (Ephesians 2:1). How many times is a believer quickened? Just one time. Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by God’s grace and it is the gift of God. How many times do you receive a gift? Just one time, right? So… this is talking about Initial Salvation. So Ephesians 2:8-9 is the first aspect of salvation of being saved by God’s grace without the deeds of the Law. But that does not mean there is not a second aspect of salvation that follows, though. In fact, we know there is if you were to read and believe 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is a part of being saved by God’s grace). But there is a call of the gospel in 2 Thessalonians 2:14 (not that it is the gospel). The call of the gospel (verse 14) is that… God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (verse 13) (Please read very slowly 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 several times).

Paul was arguing against the heresy at that time of which I call Circumcision Salvationism. This was a false heresy that said a person had to first be saved by circumcision instead of having faith in Jesus. For this heresy was addressed at the Jerusalem council (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also fought against this heresy, as well (See: Galatians 5:2). For if a person thought they had to first be saved by circumcision they would be making the Law or Works the basis of their salvation. This is why Paul spoke negatively of the Law (the Old Law) and works in the way that he did. Paul was not saying he was without Law. See: 1 Corinthians 9:21.

Granted, we are not under the 613 Laws of Moses. Believers do not have to keep the Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, holy days, animals sacrifices (if there was a temple), etc. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands (See: Hebrews 7:12). We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers as found in the New Testament.
 
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A_Thinker

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Easily refuted if you just read and believe John 5:29 that says,

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
Our righteousness is faith/belief ...

Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Galatians 3

6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
 
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Scripture says nothing of Initial Salvation and/or Foundational Salvation. That is your addition to scripture ...

So you don’t think we are initially saved? No believer ever has a starting point at first being saved? You don’t believe we stand upon the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4? When a Christian stands upon something like the gospel that is sort of like a house standing upon a foundation.
 
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