Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

Guojing · Nov 30, 2021

Oscarr said:
The Jews believed that someone being executed by crucifixion was a curse under their law. This is why the preaching of the Gospel including a Messiah who suffered on the cross for sin, was such an offence to them, and they could not believe that such a cursed person could actually be resurrected. In fact, the Jews who were influenced by the Sadducees did not believe in resurrection of the dead, and there were many of them. So this is why the Holy Spirit accompanied the preaching of the Gospel with signs and wonders. It is very difficult not to believe in a Saviour who has risen from the dead when a person is healed of lameness right in front of their eyes as did happen at the gate of the Temple when Peter and John told the lame man to get up and walk.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing about my point I was making to him?

As for your last point, you can claim it is very difficult, but ultimately, the leaders of the nation chose not to and killed Stephen instead, despite the signs and wonders.

That is when the nation of Israel fell.

DamianWarS · Nov 30, 2021

Guojing said:
That is for you to worry about, since I believe Jesus was not speaking to us in Matthew 28.

For me, I am glad our apostle Paul deliberately tell us
1 Corinthians 1:17

Yet Paul baptised. You're are quick to broadly apply Paul even identifying with him personally as your apostle but reject Christ's message because it's not for you.

Baptism has a high value in Christianity and we shouldn't so easily ignore messages to baptize or paul-splain it away. Noah sought every kind of animal (the nations) both clean and unclean to save them in the ark (baptism). God sends light (Christ) on day 1 to then immediately follow the waters below and above on day 2 a type of death of the unformed chaos that was. The product then is day 3 where land emerges from the waters below, a new creation and this is a baptism event. Moses leads the Israelites into the desert first going through the red Sea and then guided by a cloud by day and fire by night. Moses himself is placed in a basket and is saved from the waters. Jonah is thrown into the sea and swallowed by a whale and we have John the Baptiser. These are all baptism events and they foreshadow Christ's resurrection and our own resurrection. I don't so quickly dismiss it when Christ says to go and baptize because I wasn't physically standing in front of him when he spoke the words because of how highly valued baptism is throughout the Bible.

bbbbbbb · Nov 30, 2021

I Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise person? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than mankind, and the weakness of God is stronger than mankind.

bling · Nov 30, 2021

Oscarr said:
So why do you think that the disciples in Acts when they got together and prayed, asked the Lord for boldness to preach the word and that signs and wonders be done in the name of Jesus? So, you think that they could have preached the word without the signs and wonders and still turned the world upside down?

Also, explain to me why out of all the thousands who went forward at Billy Graham crusades, where there were no signs and wonders, less than 5% actually went on to be long-term committed Christians?

You ask an interesting question: “So, you think that they could have preached the word without the signs and wonders and still turned the world upside down?”

The unregistered house churches in China have grown from maybe just 4 million registered members prior to the bamboo curtain going up, to 175 million today and is growing rapidly. There is no news of any members doing obvious outward miracles, but all are emersed adult baptized believers.

The devout Jews of the first century would have needed to see obvious miracles not only from Jesus, but those following Jesus and to show Gentiles were equals, to believe, at least until the destruction of the temple.

The need today is not for obvious “miracles”, but for each individual on earth to have the opportunity to see and spend time with Jesus. Every individual needs the same opportunity that the 12 had. Christians are to provide the opportunity for Christ living in and through them, to mentor, listen, talk, teach, instruct, correct, be with and really Love on the individual. If just one individual out of a Christian’s small group each year became like them (which is like Christ), we run out of people on earth in 36 years to be in our small group (all 8 billion would be in a small group).

bbbbbbb · Nov 30, 2021

bling said:
You ask an interesting question: “So, you think that they could have preached the word without the signs and wonders and still turned the world upside down?”

The unregistered house churches in China have grown from maybe just 4 million registered members prior to the bamboo curtain going up, to 175 million today and is growing rapidly. There is no news of any members doing obvious outward miracles, but all are emersed adult baptized believers.

The devout Jews of the first century would have needed to see obvious miracles not only from Jesus, but those following Jesus and to show Gentiles were equals, to believe, at least until the destruction of the temple.

The need today is not for obvious “miracles”, but for each individual on earth to have the opportunity to see and spend time with Jesus. Every individual needs the same opportunity that the 12 had. Christians are to provide the opportunity for Christ living in and through them, to mentor, listen, talk, teach, instruct, correct, be with and really Love on the individual. If just one individual out of a Christian’s small group each year became like them (which is like Christ), we run out of people on earth in 36 years to be in our small group (all 8 billion would be in a small group).

Actually, you are incorrect regarding the unregistered churches in China. There have been numerous reported miracles in China which have proven to be a powerful testimony in bringing unbelievers to faith in Jesus Christ. I, myself, have met with various Chinese Christians who themselves were the beneficiaries of divine miracles or personally were related or knew others who had miracle performed by God alone on them. To cite just one example, I had a young lady in a class who had been born with severe autism. Her parents took her to the very best doctors in China and all of them concurred that there was nothing that could be done for her other than to insitutionalize her. However, some Christians prayed for her and within a year she was completely normal.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 30, 2021

Guojing said:
Are you agreeing or disagreeing about my point I was making to him?

As for your last point, you can claim it is very difficult, but ultimately, the leaders of the nation chose not to and killed Stephen instead, despite the signs and wonders.

That is when the nation of Israel fell.

My view is that we believe the written Scriptures over and above any experience, including miraculous manifestations. If Christians are looking to miracles to validate their Christian faith, I think they are barking up the wrong tree.

Der Alte · Nov 30, 2021

I'm going to throw a wooden shoe into the machinery. In 1992 Chevy Chase made a movie "Leap of Faith"., it was fiction but based on, then current, actual travelling evangelists who were "faith healers", one in particular, Peter Popoff.
Some of these "evangelists" would hire people to pretend to be suffering from various conditions, at the appropriate time in the services they would go forward and be "miraculously healed." Quite possibly some people became Christians following these events.

Guojing · Nov 30, 2021

Oscarr said:
My view is that we believe the written Scriptures over and above any experience, including miraculous manifestations. If Christians are looking to miracles to validate their Christian faith, I think they are barking up the wrong tree.

Yes of course, our apostle Paul made it clear to us that we walk by faith and not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7)

That does not mean Israel the nation in the past did anything wrong in asking for signs. As I have already stated to you earlier, ever since Exodus 4, the nation was brought up by God, to expect signs and wonders from anyone that claims he is sent by God.

That is why the Holy Spirit did those signs for Peter during the early part of Acts.

Guojing · Nov 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
I don't so quickly dismiss it when Christ says to go and baptize because I wasn't physically standing in front of him when he spoke the words because of how highly valued baptism is throughout the Bible.

But Christ said he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, in his first coming (Matthew 15:24).

You must learn to rightly divide the word of truth, to be approved by God, as Paul instructed you to (2 Timothy 2:15)

Guojing · Nov 30, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The one who were saved and healed should be regarded as a miracle. The other who died should not be regarded as miracle because they were not healed by God. For the one who died could have died for various reasons that only God would know about. It could be that he not turn out to be fruitful for the Lord after his recovery, and he would just get sucked back in to his life of sin again, or it could be for another reason.

It is such explanations that caused people to be disillusioned with the teaching that we are to also expect signs and wonders today.

Guojing · Nov 30, 2021

bling said:
You ask an interesting question: “So, you think that they could have preached the word without the signs and wonders and still turned the world upside down?”

The unregistered house churches in China have grown from maybe just 4 million registered members prior to the bamboo curtain going up, to 175 million today and is growing rapidly. There is no news of any members doing obvious outward miracles, but all are emersed adult baptized believers.

The devout Jews of the first century would have needed to see obvious miracles not only from Jesus, but those following Jesus and to show Gentiles were equals, to believe, at least until the destruction of the temple.

The need today is not for obvious “miracles”, but for each individual on earth to have the opportunity to see and spend time with Jesus. Every individual needs the same opportunity that the 12 had. Christians are to provide the opportunity for Christ living in and through them, to mentor, listen, talk, teach, instruct, correct, be with and really Love on the individual. If just one individual out of a Christian’s small group each year became like them (which is like Christ), we run out of people on earth in 36 years to be in our small group (all 8 billion would be in a small group).

You may find this earlier post of mine interesting, given what you are saying above

Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

bling · Dec 1, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Actually, you are incorrect regarding the unregistered churches in China. There have been numerous reported miracles in China which have proven to be a powerful testimony in bringing unbelievers to faith in Jesus Christ. I, myself, have met with various Chinese Christians who themselves were the beneficiaries of divine miracles or personally were related or knew others who had miracle performed by God alone on them. To cite just one example, I had a young lady in a class who had been born with severe autism. Her parents took her to the very best doctors in China and all of them concurred that there was nothing that could be done for her other than to insitutionalize her. However, some Christians prayed for her and within a year she was completely normal.

I personally have been part of "miraculous" healing, but nothing outwardly obvious healings that could be verified with science. I would say the same for the Chinese lady you mentioned. I see a lot of good Godly logic behind healing not being scientifically verified (we are not to rely on our knowledge of God, but humble faith in God). I have two Chinese Daughter-in-Laws, supported for years preachers/teachers in China, do one-on-one Bible studies each week with four Chinese students, correspond/teach multiple Chinese young people in China over the internet. I have not gone to China nor do I speak Chinese, but many in my family have.
Most people, who come to Christianity for the miracles walk away from the task of becoming disciple makers themselves or when persecution comes. To emphasis "Christian Miracles", does not help those suffering for the cause and in need of a miraculous miracle that does not happen. What is wrong with the person who is not miraculously healed?

bling · Dec 1, 2021

Guojing said:
Are you distinguishing between signs and miracles? All signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs.

So if your point is that God still perform miracles today, no one is denying that.

What we will argue is that signs, the ones that are seen in the 4 Gospels, and the early part of Acts, are no longer valid today.

The argument that sign has ceased is straightforward:

Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)

The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)

When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-31, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)

Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)

God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).

Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)

Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)

Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)

By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).

Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.

But praise the Lord, that God still perform miracles today. For someone like Nick Vujicic, however, he may have to be contend to only receive his healing of limbs, after the rapture. (Romans 8:18-25).

I would use 1 Cor. 13:10 and so why were outward obvious miracles needed in the first century?

bbbbbbb · Dec 1, 2021

bling said:
I personally have been part of "miraculous" healing, but nothing outwardly obvious healings that could be verified with science. I would say the same for the Chinese lady you mentioned. I see a lot of good Godly logic behind healing not being scientifically verified (we are not to rely on our knowledge of God, but humble faith in God). I have two Chinese Daughter-in-Laws, supported for years preachers/teachers in China, do one-on-one Bible studies each week with four Chinese students, correspond/teach multiple Chinese young people in China over the internet. I have not gone to China nor do I speak Chinese, but many in my family have.
Most people, who come to Christianity for the miracles walk away from the task of becoming disciple makers themselves or when persecution comes. To emphasis "Christian Miracles", does not help those suffering for the cause and in need of a miraculous miracle that does not happen. What is wrong with the person who is not miraculously healed?

If anyone I know has had a scientifically-verified miracle, the young lady in China is definitely in that class. The top doctors in China, who had studied in the United States at the top medical schools, had thoroughly examined her and were in complete agreement that her autism was untreatable and there was nothing that could be done for her. If you choose to reject their united diagnosis and choose to believe that you know more about autism than they do, that is on you.

She has not walked away from the faith. In high school she led 43 of the 45 members of her school class to faith in Jesus Christ, most of whom went on to university where they are spreading the gospel. Her parents also came to faith in Christ and are active in their local church. This was also true of other young Christians I had the privilege of teaching in China.

The fact remains that God works in mysterious ways to save His people. It might be a discarded tract lying in the dirt (I have known cases of that happening) or an old Bible found in a dusty attic (I knew a lady who came to faith that way). It could even be something as simple as a beautiful sunset which sets things in motion. I have learned not to disparage any of the wide variety of means God uses to accomplish His will, which is to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10).

bling · Dec 1, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
If anyone I know has had a scientifically-verified miracle, the young lady in China is definitely in that class. The top doctors in China, who had studied in the United States at the top medical schools, had thoroughly examined her and were in complete agreement that her autism was untreatable and there was nothing that could be done for her. If you choose to reject their united diagnosis and choose to believe that you know more about autism than they do, that is on you.

She has not walked away from the faith. In high school she led 43 of the 45 members of her school class to faith in Jesus Christ, most of whom went on to university where they are spreading the gospel. Her parents also came to faith in Christ and are active in their local church. This was also true of other young Christians I had the privilege of teaching in China.

The fact remains that God works in mysterious ways to save His people. It might be a discarded tract lying in the dirt (I have known cases of that happening) or an old Bible found in a dusty attic (I knew a lady who came to faith that way). It could even be something as simple as a beautiful sunset which sets things in motion. I have learned not to disparage any of the wide variety of means God uses to accomplish His will, which is to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10).

I do not mind at all leaving this discussion with "God works in mysterious ways", which I fully agree with and I tend to underestimate the Spirit a lot and wind up surprised. Can you lead me to some publication stating the Chinese are coming to Christ because of miracles, because that is not the reason I have heard, but people are coming because they have become disciples (made to be learners, students and mentored). The Chinese are hungering for the truth since most do not trust the Communist. Iran is now being said to be the fastest growing Christian nation doubling in number in just a few years and again there are miracles happening, yet none are scientifically verifiable.
How would you go about scientifically verifying the young Chinese woman was miraculously cured?

bbbbbbb · Dec 1, 2021

bling said:
I do not mind at all leaving this discussion with "God works in mysterious ways", which I fully agree with and I tend to underestimate the Spirit a lot and wind up surprised. Can you lead me to some publication stating the Chinese are coming to Christ because of miracles, because that is not the reason I have heard, but people are coming because they have become disciples (made to be learners, students and mentored). The Chinese are hungering for the truth since most do not trust the Communist. Iran is now being said to be the fastest growing Christian nation doubling in number in just a few years and again there are miracles happening, yet none are scientifically verifiable.
How would you go about scientifically verifying the young Chinese woman was miraculously cured?

I don't know that Chinese people are any different than any other people in the world. The fact that genuine miracles are occurring in China is undoubted (at least in my mind if no one else's) but there are plenty of fake miracles and fake faith healers there, as there are everywhere else. Some Chinese do come to genuine faith after seeing or experiencing genuine miracles and most come to faith by other ways, not the least being a clear explanation of the gospel.

I am also extremely skeptical about claims of up to the hundreds of millions of Chinese people who have become Christians in our generation. The reality is that Christianity is becoming popular in China and many people there are showing an openness and affinity for it, as they do with all things American. There is an enormous gap in understanding between genuine Christians and other who profess to be Christians, but are not, in reality - as there is everywhere in the world. I would say that the average Chinese person knows more about Santa Claus than about Jesus Christ.

As for the scientific verification, the numerous reports given by the doctors who examined her and pronounced her to be completely incurable is highly significant in my mind (if nobody else's mind). These were not traditional Chinese doctors using traditional Chinese medicine, but medical doctors trained in some of the best medical schools in the world. If they did not know what they were doing then I suppose one ought to ignore all scientific and medical experts. The fact that she was cured and not merely that she had had her symptoms somewhat alleviated came as an enormous surprise to everyone involved, including the doctors who examined her afterward.

Guojing · Dec 1, 2021

bling said:
I would use 1 Cor. 13:10 and so why were outward obvious miracles needed in the first century?

So do you agree with my argument that Israel always needed signs to believe?

bling · Dec 2, 2021

Guojing said:
So do you agree with my argument that Israel always needed signs to believe?

Yes

bling · Dec 2, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
I don't know that Chinese people are any different than any other people in the world. The fact that genuine miracles are occurring in China is undoubted (at least in my mind if no one else's) but there are plenty of fake miracles and fake faith healers there, as there are everywhere else. Some Chinese do come to genuine faith after seeing or experiencing genuine miracles and most come to faith by other ways, not the least being a clear explanation of the gospel.

I am also extremely skeptical about claims of up to the hundreds of millions of Chinese people who have become Christians in our generation. The reality is that Christianity is becoming popular in China and many people there are showing an openness and affinity for it, as they do with all things American. There is an enormous gap in understanding between genuine Christians and other who profess to be Christians, but are not, in reality - as there is everywhere in the world. I would say that the average Chinese person knows more about Santa Claus than about Jesus Christ.

As for the scientific verification, the numerous reports given by the doctors who examined her and pronounced her to be completely incurable is highly significant in my mind (if nobody else's mind). These were not traditional Chinese doctors using traditional Chinese medicine, but medical doctors trained in some of the best medical schools in the world. If they did not know what they were doing then I suppose one ought to ignore all scientific and medical experts. The fact that she was cured and not merely that she had had her symptoms somewhat alleviated came as an enormous surprise to everyone involved, including the doctors who examined her afterward.

I have personally been involved with my granddaughter being diagnosed with a very rare disease, HLH, by some of the best Doctors in the world before her first birthday, with no hope of survival, yet she is a beautiful, very smart, no health issue 16-year-old today. They just say: “We must have made the wrong diagnoses.”

I do not think Chinese people know about “Santa Claus” either.

The big huge advantage the Chinese have is the fact, there big danger in trying to bring attention to yourself as a Christian Faith Healer, that will get you thrown into jail. People might be healed and twenty years ago make it public, but today shy away from publicity, which silences the fake healer.

bbbbbbb · Dec 2, 2021

bling said:
I have personally been involved with my granddaughter being diagnosed with a very rare disease, HLH, by some of the best Doctors in the world before her first birthday, with no hope of survival, yet she is a beautiful, very smart, no health issue 16-year-old today. They just say: “We must have made the wrong diagnoses.”

I do not think Chinese people know about “Santa Claus” either.

The big huge advantage the Chinese have is the fact, there big danger in trying to bring attention to yourself as a Christian Faith Healer, that will get you thrown into jail. People might be healed and twenty years ago make it public, but today shy away from publicity, which silences the fake healer.

Actually, when I was in China in March I was rather taken aback to see the standard depictions of the Jolly Old Elf in many store windows. I think the reason is that there are no commercial holidays in China during the winter. The New Year is huge, of course, but from a commercial standpoint it is valueless. In both China and Vietnam (I cannot speak for other countries in the area) there is a concerted effort to introduce the commercial aspects of the American Christmas buying season. Generally, it is not going over very well. The concept of decorating one's home seasonally and then, even worse, finding a place to store the decorations in the off-seasons is really bizarre to the cultures there.

I am delighted to hear about your granddaughter and hope that she grows up to live a happy and healthy life.

Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

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