Tithing?

Vince53 said:

How do you identify the most genuine Christians in a church? Why, by the financial records, of course., especially if they're tithers. But is this a Biblical standard? Let's have some courteous responses, Gang!

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Of course that's not a biblical standard. And of course "the most genuine Christians" aren't observable by financial records. That's just incredibly silly.

Tithing is not a requirement, nor is it commanded whatsoever.

The practice of the Church is that since we are Christ's Church meant to serve one another and our neighbors, we generously volunteer our time and resources out of genuine love for one another.

In the middle ages it was far more common for bakers to donate bread, dairy farmers to donate cheese, clothes-makers to donate clothes, cobblers donate shoes, etc. Those who had, gave what they had in order for those who lacked to be provided for. The Church has always, since the beginning, operated through a redistribution of wealth. The rich are called to serve the poor. The powerful are called to serve the weak.

In the United States, where there is a very firm and explicit wall of division between church and state, churches are wholly independent of the state, and therefore do not receive any state tax funding. In other parts of the world, such as various countries in Europe, churches actually receive state funding through various "church taxes". This means that in places like the US, churches are entirely reliant on funding through donation. And so the standard and ancient practice of taking up collections now also includes setting aside some of that donated money for basic maintenance, property taxes, electricity, utilities, paying staff and clergy. So, yeah, pastors do depend upon a stipend from the church in order to keep a roof over their head, eat food, etc. For pastors with family, this obviously is even even more important thing--as there is a whole family that needs support.

So church collections go toward necessities, paying compensatory wages, and for the general welfare of not just the congregation, but also of the local community--running food drives, food banks, shelters, and other forms of community outreach. My own church has a quilter's club where a lot of the little old ladies knit quilts which are donated monthly for poor families and the homeless around town.

Jesus says the greatest in the kingdom is the least, it is the slave, the lowly.

The greatest saints in God's kingdom, the "greatest" Christians if we should want to talk that way (I don't really think we should) are the unknowns, the forgotten, and the ones whose names are known to Christ alone. Theirs is a crown greater than any of our crowns put together. Thus the Lord says that the anonymous widow who gave up her last mite was greater than all.

-CryptoLutheran

Strong in Him said:

I'd love to see the look on the faces of pastors who insist on Biblical tithing if their congregation walked into church carrying cabbages, carrots, potatoes, beans etc, went into the kitchen to cook a stew and then sat in the pews and ate it - after inviting along any homeless people to join in.

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Actually this is pretty much what my church is like. My church is in a former store in the down town core and we run a soup kitchen 4 days a week feeding the less fortunate. Let me just say if there's any way you can talk your spiritual leaders into dong somewhat the same in your town or city you'll find your congregation will feel the sense of blessing every time you walk in the door. You just know this is a place where people are being helped. Many of our volunteers are from other churches too.

Bobber said:

Actually this is pretty much what my church is like. My church is in a former store in the down town core and we run a soup kitchen 4 days a week feeding the less fortunate. Let me just say if there's any way you can talk your spiritual leaders into dong somewhat the same in your town or city you'll find your congregation will feel the sense of blessing every time you walk in the door. You just know this is a place where people are being helped. Many of our volunteers are from other churches too.

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Sounds brilliant.

I was thinking more of the congregation turning up to a Sunday service with a load of veg and saying "here's our tithe, Pastor - according to Biblical instruction".

Dont see herbs, vegetables, or grains in -
Jesus, while on earth, watched the offering plate and noticed who gave and how much. Then He remarked "For they all put in from their abundance, but she from her need has put in everything she had - all she had to live on.” (Mark 12:41-44).

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." Mal 3:10

God required each family to give a memorial offering of half a shekel every year discussed in Exodus 30:12-16 and 38:25-28.

Ya'll want to know the real deal on tithing? All right, here you go:

First of all some have argued that the tithe is old covenant. The tithe has nothing to do with covenant. the covenants dealt with sin, not giving. Additionally, the principle of the tithe, and more so giving, predate the old covenant and the law.

Secondly, a few weeks ago I preached a message on the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law. This is both a natural principle and a spiritual one (Romans 2:28-29). In both cases the idea is the intent of the writer is more important that the words themselves. In other words there are no "loopholes" nor "gotchas" in the Word of God.

For example, Ex 35:3 says one cannot kindle a fire in your home on the Sabbath. Looking at the context it is clear the spirit of the command is concerning cooking... that a woman does not have to work all day making meals for others who are resting, she needs to rest also. However, the letter of the law would say you cannot make a fire for any reason, even to warm yourself. The spirit of the law was not for people to freeze and be miserable on cold nights (that wouldn't be very "restful").

Jesus spent considerable time fighting this mindset, especially in relationship to the sabbath. Mark 3:1-6 is a great example of Him trying to show them the spirit of the law is greater than the letter of the law. As someone else pointed out, Luke 23:23 & Luke 11:42 Jesus tries to address the spirit of giving as well.

So what's the point with tithing?

Many people, including many here, point to the tithe being about grain or food of some kind. And they are right. However, they say it like some sort of "gotcha". How funny would it be if we all brought wheat to church instead of money, ha-ha-ha. "Gotchas" were exactly what the Pharisees continually tried to trap Jesus with, especially focusing on the letter of the law instead of the spirit of it.

What was the letter of the law when it came to tithing? 10% of grain (or something similar). What was the spirit of the law when it came to tithing? To provide for those who do the full time work of the ministry (not just the people, but also the buildings and equipment), so they could focus on it. The tithe isn't about grain, it's about providing. Grain isn't a "gotcha" for now, it was simply the most efficient method for back then.

Now, before anyone get's too worked up there's another side to this as well. 10% is also the letter of the law, not the spirit, and should be treated as such. As someone here pointed out the more wealth you have the easier it is to give 10%. And just like the fire, God doesn't want someone to go hungry or homeless in order to tithe, that's not the spirit.

However, we can always give something. The Bible says, God loves a cheerful giver. Why? God want's our whole heart and He knows the number one thing that can steal our heart from Him is wealth and finances. That's been true from the beginning. Yet we need finances to get by in this world. So when we understand the principle of cheerful giving and we can give from a heart of gratitude instead of obligation or fear, our heart in lined up with God's heart, and we are in tune with His Spirit instead of the world.

Some like to say the tithe is completely OT. I'd be careful about that, the NT standard of OT principles was always to raise the bar, not lower it, and giving is clearly in the NT. In Acts they sold everything and gave it to the new church. But again, the spirit isn't about an amount nor a percentage, it's about the heart.

So, where does that leave us with the tithe? I like to look at the tithe like this: the tithe is a benchmark. If you are in a position that you cannot possibly give that much without going homeless, clearly, don't do it. But it can be a goal you can strive for. When we have goals like that we tend to do better in other areas of our finances (paying off debt, or not getting more of it for example), which is a good thing for us and biblical. If giving a tithe is easy, then consider it a starting point and ask God what He would have you do beyond that. If you have been giving cheerfully, it shouldn't be hard to find and an answer. Most of all don't get caught up in the percentage, and don't ignore the command to provide for those that do full time ministry, and do it with a cheerful heart.

All that being said, the truth is most pastors/leaders actually hate asking for offerings. They really do. I count myself among them. But it is a important spiritual principle that contributes directly their flock's personal growth. Denying them the opportunity to give, and to teach on why it is important would be stunting their spiritual growth. Giving and teaching on it IS needed. Do some leaders abuse the concept of giving and tithing, absolutely. I've heard stories that I can hardly believe. One leader, (I personally know people that attended there for a long time) actually makes his congregation give him their W-2's every year then compares them to their giving and, FROM THE PULPIT, with a gavel and everything, pronounces blessing or cursing over them based on their giving... talk about awful and controlling! For the life of me I don't know why people continue to attend that church. (the guy also thinks he has greater revelation than the Apostle Paul, so it's more of a cult than a church).

We have to understand spirit of giving is not to provide an excuse for us to give less, nor a way for leadership to control us, it is to challenge us to examine our heart and get it in tune with God AND provide for the work of the ministry.

So, if anyone is still reading this and any of the following apply to you, this is my challenge to you:

• You are making fun of the tithe due to it being about food. Stop it and check your heart.
• If you grumble every time an offering is taken. Stop it and check your heart.
• If you are searching the Bible for an excuse to not give, or give less. Stop it and check your heart.
• If you are giving out of fear. Stop it and check your heart.
  
• If you are being bullied into giving. Take a step back and seriously consider if you are in the right place.
• If you attend a local church, make that the place of your primary giving, even if you don't agree with everything they believe.

also:

• Plan your giving. Talk to God about it. Have goals for now and in the future and stick to them.
• Don't get caught up in a percentage, but don't ignore the percentage. Use the tithe as a personal measuring stick to help you get started and set your goals.
• Remember God is a cheerful giver and we are made in His image and likeness. He so loved you that He freely gave the most valuable thing He could ever give.

topher694 said:

Many people, including many here, point to the tithe being about grain or food of some kind. And they are right. However, they say it like some sort of "gotcha". How funny would it be if we all brought wheat to church instead of money, ha-ha-ha.

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That wasn't my purpose.

I have read many threads on these forums about tithing, the need to tithe, pastors asking/telling people to leave if they don't tithe and so on. My point is, and always has been, that if pastors, and others, are going to insist on tithing "because it is Scriptural", then they have to follow the rules/instructions for tithing as written in Scripture. Tithing is only taught in the OT and then it was always food, not money.
There is no "gotcha" involved. If someone insists they should receive tithes as taught in Scripture; I think they'll find that the tithe was food, not money. And that the tithers were then told to eat it in celebration for what God had done for them; taking care to include priests and the poor.

Teach people giving - yes.
Tell them that 10% is a good starting point, or something to aim for - if you like.
Accept with gratitude all that people can give, whether 20% or 5% - absolutely.
Tell people that giving 10% of their wages, before tax, is tithing, is Scriptural and nothing less is acceptable - absolutely not.

Strong in Him said:

That wasn't my purpose.

I have read many threads on these forums about tithing, the need to tithe, pastors asking/telling people to leave if they don't tithe and so on. My point is, and always has been, that if pastors, and others, are going to insist on tithing "because it is Scriptural", then they have to follow the rules/instructions for tithing as written in Scripture. Tithing is only taught in the OT and then it was always food, not money.
There is no "gotcha" involved. If someone insists they should receive tithes as taught in Scripture; I think they'll find that the tithe was food, not money. And that the tithers were then told to eat it in celebration for what God had done for them; taking care to include priests and the poor.

Teach people giving - yes.
Tell them that 10% is a good starting point, or something to aim for - if you like.
Accept with gratitude all that people can give, whether 20% or 5% - absolutely.
Tell people that giving 10% of their wages, before tax, is tithing, is Scriptural and nothing less is acceptable - absolutely not.

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If the shoe doesn't fit, you don't need to wear it. That's for you to decide. I've seen the argument many other times by many different people. It should never be a bad thing for any of us to do a little self evaluation though.

topher694 said:

If the shoe doesn't fit, you don't need to wear it. That's for you to decide. I've seen the argument many other times by many different people. It should never be a bad thing for any of us to do a little self evaluation though.

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Yes, agreed.
I just wanted to clarify that it was never my intention to mock or make it look as though I was mocking.

Vince53 said:

Topher, I consider that a very intelligent, well-written post. The case for NT tithing is stronger than most non-tithers believe.

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What IS the case for NT tithing? Because I don't see that one has ever been made.

Vince53 said:

Topher, I consider that a very intelligent, well-written post. The case for NT tithing is stronger than most non-tithers believe.

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Thanks. Clearly I've thought a lot about it, lol. But that's with good reason. As I said, I really don't like taking offerings, yet they are necessary for all the reasons I outlined, so because of that I've spent a lot of time studying the spirit behind giving so I can be presenting it in it's truest form. Not from a place of worrying about paying bills, nor from a place of hating asking people to give, but rather from a place that truly represents the spirit of the principle... that's been my goal.

I don't usually volunteer this information but perhaps it will help some people receive from what I posted. I've been pastoring a church for over 6 years. Obviously we take offerings. In that entire time I have never paid myself. I work a full time job in addition to the church. My wife leads worship and we pay her a small stipend, and I mean small, enough to do her hair and nails once a month and that's about it. That, and the church was able help send my entire family on a vacation. We put as much as we can back into the ministry so we can reach more people. While most pastors may no do what I do, I know that most pastors I know personally share a similar mindset. They aren't in it for the money, they want to reach as many people as they can AND still be able to do something nice for their spouse and family.

Strong in Him said:

What IS the case for NT tithing? Because I don't see that one has ever been made.

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That the "spirit" behind it is alive and well. Just don't get caught up in the "letter" of it.

topher694 said:

That the "spirit" behind it is alive and well. Just don't get caught up in the "letter" of it.

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Surely the "spirit" behind tithing is that the first 10% of your crops - work of your hands/livelihood - belongs to God?
But isn't NT teaching that everything belongs to God?

Strong in Him said:

Surely the "spirit" behind tithing is that the first 10% of your crops - work of your hands/livelihood - belongs to God?
But isn't NT teaching that everything belongs to God?

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The "spirit" is to keep our hearts right and provide for those doing full time ministry.
The "letter" is the percentage and form that it takes

"Everything belongs to God" predates NT, it goes back to Gen 1. Giving then, and now, is more about how much you give back to God, doing so with the right heart and recognizing He is your ultimate provider. The principle isn't new to the NT, rather the OT religious leaders messed it all up (as they did with everything) and the NT highlighted and redeemed it.

topher694 said:

Ya'll want to know the real deal on tithing? All right, here you go:

First of all some have argued that the tithe is old covenant. The tithe has nothing to do with covenant. the covenants dealt with sin, not giving.

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Well OK friend. You claim you have the REAL deal on tithing. You do know though right that no one should go by your mere assertion. Maybe you don't quite have the REAL deal? Maybe there's things we all need to look at and consider? To start I don't see how you claim tithing wasn't made articles under the Old Covenant? Surely it was for there was blessing and curses attached to it's compliance or the failing to. Lev. 27:30; Num. 18:25–28; Deut. 14:22–24; 2 Chron. 31:5–6

And Deut 28: 58 brings this out, "If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters,...." It seems to me the whole thing of Deuteronomy was about the covenant agreement of blessing and curses if we read the whole book. And the good news is Paul said we are redeemed from the curse of the law and the law doesn't apply to the Gentiles. Gal 3:16 So I don't really know where you're getting tithing had nothing to do with covenant. It seems to me it most certainly did.

Bobber said:

Well OK friend. You claim you have the REAL deal on tithing. You do know though right that no one should go by your mere assertion. Maybe you don't quite have the REAL deal? Maybe there's things we all need to look at and consider? To start I don't see how you claim tithing wasn't made articles under the Old Covenant? Surely it was for there was blessing and curses attached to it's compliance or the failing to. Lev. 27:30; Num. 18:25–28; Deut. 14:22–24; 2 Chron. 31:5–6

And Deut 28: 58 brings this out, "If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters,...." It seems to me the whole thing of Deuteronomy was about the covenant agreement of blessing and curses if we read the whole book. And the good news is Paul said we are redeemed from the curse of the law and the law doesn't apply to the Gentiles. Gal 3:16 So I don't really know where you're getting tithing had nothing to do with covenant. It seems to me it most certainly did.

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You can take it or leave it, no need to be snarky. I also explained where I'm coming from and how I practice what I preach. Did you even read what I wrote in it's entirety or just the first two paragraphs?

What you are doing here is conflating law, covenant and spiritual principles, they are different things although all interrelated to some extent.

Vince53 said:

"If you want Biblical teaching on tithing it can be found in Deuteronomy 14:22-29, Deuteronomy 26:1-2, Leviticus 27:30 and a few other places.
From these passages we can see that the tithe was always food - 10% of their crops."

Now THAT is an intelligent point that I have never heard before.

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It was also the increase of the livestock herd each year. The tenth (tithe) animal to pass under the counting rod was given as tithe to the temple.
Leviticus 27:32 Every tenth animal from the herd or flock that passes under the shepherd's rod will be holy to the LORD.

Strong in Him said:

From these passages we can see that the tithe was always food - 10% of their crops. They were to take this 10% to the temple and then eat it, in thanksgiving for what the Lord had given to them - not forgetting the priests, who had no allotments, and the poor among them.

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I believe this is incorrect. The tithe schedule went in cycles of 7 years. I believe it was the third year that your description would be accurate but most years the tithe was not eaten by the tither but was taken to the temple and stored to be eaten by the priests/ Levites who were serving their temple rotation there and 10% of the 10% was set aside for the High Priest and his family.
The tribe of the Levites were not allotted any land of their own to plant crops etc. so they needed the other tribes to care for them and their families. They ran their livestock just outside the cities/towns where they lived, I think this was rather like community property, kind'a, but don't quote me on that.

Hank77 said:

I believe this is incorrect. The tithe schedule went in cycles of 7 years. I believe it was the third year that your description would be accurate but most years the tithe was not eaten by the tither but was taken to the temple and stored to be eaten by the priests/ Levites who were serving their temple rotation there and 10% of the 10% was set aside for the High Priest and his family.
The tribe of the Levites were not allotted any land of their own to plant crops etc. so they needed the other tribes to care for them and their families. They ran their livestock just outside the cities/towns where they lived, I think this was rather like community property, kind'a, but don't quote me on that.

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You are correct. Actually there were 3 forms of tithing and it was actually kinda Dave Rasmey-esque. The first was for the Levites, the second was actually more like a savings account for the family, and the third was part of a community effort to help the poor.