Does "Israel" mean "the church"?

All of those whom Christ has redeemed, regardless of when they lived in history (from Abel to now) have always been both "Israel" and "the church".

Acts 7:38 uses the term "church in the wilderness" to describe the group of people who "exodus"(ed) from Egypt. Just as Paul used the term "Israel" to include gentiles grafted in.

Christ is the "seed of Abraham" at the same time "the church" (Old Testament or New Testament believers) is "the body of Christ".

There were unsaved people who "perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief" just as there are people who believe they are Christians whom Christ will tell them: "I never knew you; depart from me you workers of iniquity." (Now aint that the scariest verse in the Bible!)

Those who are truly elect; have never been replaced by anyone!

com7fy8 said:

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." (Romans 2:28-29)I understand that God said that any Israelite who went against Him would be cut off from Israel.

But Jesus had Jews who did not go against God; so these were the ones still included in the one nation of Israel. And our Apostle Peter says we in Jesus are "a holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9). We who have been Gentile sinners, but have trusted in the Messiah of Israel, have joined in with the Jews who have not refused their Messiah Jesus. We are like Ruth who was fully accepted because she lived for God and proved herself to the honorable Jews.

So, we have not replaced Israel, but have joined with the genuine Israel of those who have not gotten themselves cut off.

But yes I find that interesting how now many Jews have moved back into the land of Palestine. But it is not clear that they are confessing Jesus as their Messiah. And the prophecies that I recall say Israel will return to the LORD . . . not only to their land! And in the Torah the Jews have been warned that if they refuse the LORD, they can be put out of their land. So, unless they repent and trust in Christ, even now they are still at risk of being put out, possibly. Except for one thing > we have Jesus people visiting and living in the Palestine area. So, whose land is that? I consider 1 Corinthians 3:21-23 >

What I get from this is that if we are God's children, all that belongs to God is ours . . . already . . . now. Therefore, we own the land of Palestine, no matter how the world's politicians pretend they decide who gets what. And already some number of us are living there, walking about there, enjoying. What we do with it all is what matters . . . in sharing with our Father

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2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone. All of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

Daniel9v9 said:

There's some confusion here. The Church has not replaced the nation of Israel. "The Church" means "God's chosen people". And this at one point was Israel, which we, gentiles, have now been grafted into.

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It was the righteous, i.e. the faithful and obedient, within OT Israel, who were God's Chosen People.

The unrighteous, unfaithful and disobedient, He slew by the thousands.

Today and since Christ, we His Church are His Chosen People.

The Church is Israel:
Just as the Gentile Ruth, an ancestor of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, could say to the Israelite Naomi: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God. Ruth 1:16, so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel. Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12-19, Galatians 3:29

That is: all genetic Jews in the church remain members of Judah or Benjamin, the tribes they were born into. Romans 11:1 And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel and so will be assigned into its tribes, as per: Ezekiel 47:21-23, Isaiah 66:21 and as seen by John in Revelation 7:9

So the entire church represents the 12 tribes of Israel. This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved by the New Covenant, which is made only with the Israel of God. Hebrews 8:10

John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church. God knows who His people are, Amos 9:9, and every believer will be placed in the tribe suited to their abilities and characteristics. Revelation 7:9-14

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are ethnic Jews, Acts 22:3 or ethnic Gentiles, Romans 16:4b, have become spiritually-circumcised Israelites, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus. Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13

The books of James and Peter are addressed to the twelve tribes, which is the same as addressing people in the church, people with faith in Christ , James 1:3, that is: Christians, people who have been born again in Jesus and who anticipate His Return.

All those in the church, from every tribe, race, nation and language, are spiritually Abraham's seed, by their faith. Galatians 3:29 And Abraham's seed is Israel. Isaiah 41:8-10 So the entire church membership are Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16

This literally means we are the ‘Overcomers for God’, or ‘God’s Victorious people’. Seen in each of the seven Church’s of Revelation and in Isaiah 56:1-8

Not just the Jews in the church, but also the Gentiles in the church, are all spiritually Abraham's seed of promise as Isaac was and as Jesus is the one and only true Seed. And so the peoples of the church, Jews and those from every race, nation and language, every faithful believing Christian is an heir of all the as yet, unfulfilled promises made by God to Israel in all of the Bible: Romans 8:16-18, Ephesians 1:11-14

Zechariah 8:7-8 The Lord says: I am going to rescue My people from wherever they are in the world and I will bring them back into the holy Land, to Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God in truth and righteousness.

The Prophesies are clear; it is a people that God foreknew whom He will rescue, redeem, restore and forgive their sins and misdeeds. No other than the Northern tribes of the House of Israel, scattered among the nations and ‘lost’ to our knowledge, but not to God. Now; they are the bulk of the faithful Christian peoples.

Biblewriter said:

God has clearly stated that 2/3 of all the inhabitants of the land are going to be killed (Zechariah 24) and in Ezekiel 20. He said that He would purge the rebels from among those returning. But then, in both Isaiah 4 and Zechariah 23, He said that He would cause all the rest of them to repent.

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Be helpful to get your Bible refs right.
Those who will repent, will be the survivors. Of both the House of Judah and of Israel. The wicked reprobates will be dead.

The Bible is quite clear: it will be people from every tribe, race nation and language, who will go with Jesus into the Millennium. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9

Daniel9v9 said:

Yes, that's what's implied by "Israel" proper. It's the same as the distinction we make between the visible church, which consists of true believers on one hand and nominal Christians and false teachers on the other, and the invisible Church, which is the Church, proper, which only consists of true believers in Jesus.

We even confess this in our creeds: "I believe in one holy catholic (or Christian) and apostolic Church". That is, it's an article of faith and not something we can observe with our eyes. For the nation of Israel in the OT, it was the same, but at the same time different because they were a Theocracy. That is, according to the Law, it was very clear who was God's people and who was cut off from being His people. So, when we refer to Israel as the chosen people of God, that does imply His faithful people and not merely all ancestors. Not to mention that there were gentiles included in Israel, who were very much a part of God's people, such as Job and Ruth.

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I concur fully. Unfortunately, however, in dispensationalism, Israel has a much different meaning than it does in historical Christian orthodoxy. In order to perpetuate its ideology of two peoples of God, dispensationalism insists that Israel is a racial entity identified as the genetic descendants of Abraham. While this is a demonstrable fallacy not only Scripturally but also scientifically, it is nonetheless a pervasive and pernicious influence and deception in a vast portion of the contemporary Christian Church.

Thus, in order to counter the insistent and persistent racialization of God and His Word, it is necessary to continually reinforce and reemphasize the Scriptural recognition of true Israel as those who are identified and distinguished not genetically, but spiritually; not by physical DNA, but by two genes of spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

Biblewriter said:

But there is no rational way to even pretend that the prophecies of Ezekiel have ever been fulfilled.

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Depends which ones you are talking about. The first 15 chapters include a couple of visions about Heaven (who knows), history lessons of how far his people had fallen, or about the first destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the people of Israel. That was all fulfilled.

Ezekiel 16:60-63 is the first futuristic reference alluding to the remembrance of his covenant that won't be broken, which could refer to the restoration of the temple in Nehemiah's day.

Ezekiel 17:20-23 could also refer to this time, or it could refer to the genetic path to Jesus. (A few ways you could interpret this, all fulfilled.)

Anyway, the next 8 chapters are various somewhat redundant justifications of the sins of Israel and Judah.

Chapter 25 is for other nations, fulfilled as listed, though in some cases it took a few centuries.

Chapter 26 is the first disputed prophecy against Tyre, since it was actually Alexander the Great that destroyed Tyre (the island city). Nebuchadnezzar did destroy the land settlement, but did not conquer the island so some skeptics claim this did not get fulfilled, so there is controversy.

Ezekiel 29 is the biggest problem for the prophetic world, mostly because of verses 17-20. First off, it's out of place. The rest of Ezekiel is mostly in chronological order, but 29:1 says the 10th year, 30:20 is the 11th year, and in the middle is 29:17 which is the 27th year. (You can review every other date marker in Ezekiel and see that this is the only exception.) Second, it never happened according to any historical source. Nebuchadnezzar did not succeed in conquering and making Egypt desolate for 40 years. However, if you remove these 4 verses, then chapter 29-30 result in a perfect historical fulfillment in Cambyses of Persia's conquest of Egypt 70 years later.

So if you assume Ezekiel wrote this when he says he did, then his track record is pretty good. It's only after chapter 34 that there is some dispute between the preterist/futurist/historicist mindsets.

Biblewriter said:

You are ignoring GOD’S own explanation of what HE meant by saying “not all Israel is of Israel.” Verse 8 begins with the words, That is,” and verse 9 begins with the word “For.” These two beginnings CLEARLY show that these verses, and those that follow, are explaining what God had just said.

And what was the explanation? God gave two examples of SOME, but not ALL, of the physical seed of Abraham being chosen as his “seed.”

So this scripture does not even imply that anyone who is not a physical descendant of Israel could become an Israelite. It is only teaching that being a physical descendant of Israel is not enough. To be a true Israelite, a person must also share the faith of Abraham.

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Those of Israel (proper) are grafted back into the tree (Jesus)

Romans 11:24
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches (Israel proper), be grafted back into their own olive tree.

no.... all share the faith of Jesus ... all are one in Him.

Jesus fulfilled EVERYTHING .... all covenants .... all promises .... He is the only one who can.

It's not the faith of Abraham ... it's the faith of Jesus.

Christ is “true Israel,” this means that all who believe in Christ whether they are Jew or Gentile are now part of Israel by relation of their identification with Jesus, the true Israelite

Jesus is the true Israel, and the church becomes the Israel of God as it unites to True Israel (Jesus). The same is true for ethnic Israel, whom God has not abandoned. But their only hope is to be united with Jesus, the ultimate suffering servant.

Biblewriter said:

Many people insist that in Bible prophecy, the many promises made to “Israel,” actually meant “the church.” This doctrine is defended by a wide spectrum of ideas. One end of this spectrum is a claim that all the promises of God are conditional, and that “Israel,” having failed to meet the conditions of the promises made to her, lost them, and they were transferred to “the church.” At the opposite end of ths spectrum is a claim that there has only been one single “people of God” throughout all the ages. So this one “people of God,” which were called “Israel” in the Old Testament, are the same people that are now called “the church.” But however this doctrine is reached, the people who teach it insist that it is clearly taught in the New Testament. This claim, however, is factually incorrect. There are, indeed, a few places in the New Testament that can rationally be INTERPRETED to mean that “the church” is “Israel.” But there is NOT EVEN ONE passage, anywhere in the entire Bible, that actually SAYS that. So this doctrine is UNQUESTIONABLY based on INTERPRETATION, rather than on EVEN ONE actual statement of scripture.

But while they INTERPRET the name “Israel” to mean “the church,” this INTERPRETATION falls down when we come to the many other names used by God in making the many promises found in the Old Testament. For God did not JUST promise end time blessings to the NATION of Israel. (And, yes, He actually did specifically use the word “NATION.”) He also made similar promises to each of the ancient sub-nations of Ephraim and Judah, and to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name. And no scripture even HINTS at an idea that ANY of these fourteen other names means “the church.”

This INTERPRETATION also breaks down when we come to God’s EXPLICITLY STATED promises concerning a PLOT OF REAL ESTATE in the Middle East. Ezekiel 36:1-10 promises the “mountains of Israel,” along with “the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken,” that they will again be “inhabited” by “all the house of Israel, all of it.” Further, Ezekiel 47:13-20 SPECIFICALLY defines the borders of this PLOT OF REAL ESTATE, and the following chapter, Ezekiel 48, specifies how this PLOT OF REAL ESTATE will be divided among the twelve tribes of Israel, naming each tribe, and specifying the location of its individual PLOT OF REAL ESTATE. There is no rational way to even PRETEND that all this refers to “the church.”

The end result of this doctrine is that these people are using THEIR INTERPRETATIONS of the MEANINGS of some scriptures that NEVER, EVEN ONCE, actually SAY what they INTERPRET them to MEAN, as an excuse to DENY that other scriptures MEAN what they EXPLICITLY SAY.

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What promise is left to fulfill to geopolitical Israel?

Biblewriter said:

You cannot provide even one scripture that teaches this.

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If I may, scripture clearly states that only a remnant do the will of the Father. These are the elect aka saved from the second death.
Blessings

Biblewriter said:

As differentiated from the THEORY that "Israel" means "the church,"

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What you have yet to address, is the more than 20 clearly stated Prophesies which tell how the Lord will Judge the people currently referred to as Israel.
The Christian Church too; will face this forthcoming time of fiery Judgment, 1 Peter 4:12 but most will survive. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

But the Judgment of Judah results in only a remnant surviving. A holy seed; Isaiah 6:11-13

The other thing that you don't seem to consider, is - the known fact of the new nation of Israel was to have been called, correctly; Judah.
But Ben Gurion changed it to Israel at the last moment.
They have wrongly used 'Israel', it does not apply to them and the Jews know it.
The true Israelites of God, can only be individual people who love the Lord, accept Jesus and keep the Commandments.

Biblewriter said:

In my book, “Ancient Dispensational Truth,” I presented HARD PROOF that most of the main doctrines of Dispensationalism were standard doctrine throughout the first four centuries of the church.

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Does your HARD PROOF include the following?

Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXIII, 130 AD
"Christians are the True Israel"

Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD
"Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race.

Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD
"As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 1
"This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 34, Paragraph 1
"Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham..."

John Chrysostom on Galatians 6:15-16
"Observe the power of the Cross, to what a pitch it hath raised him! not only hath it put to death for him all mundane affairs, but hath set him far above the Old Dispensation. What can be comparable to this power? for the Cross hath persuaded him, who was willing to be slain and to slay others for the sake of circumcision, to leave it on a level with uncircumcision, and to seek for things strange and marvellous and above the heavens. This our rule of life he calls "a new creature," both on account of what is past, and of what is to come; of what is past, because our soul, which had grown old with the oldness of sin, hath been all at once renewed by baptism, as if it had been created again. Wherefore we require a new and heavenly rule of life. And of things to come, because both the heaven and the earth, and all the creation, shall with our bodies be translated into incorruption. Tell me not then, he says, of circumcision, which now availeth nothing; (for how shall it appear, when all things have undergone such a change?) but seek the new things of grace. For they who pursue these things shall enjoy peace and amity, and may properly be called by the name of "Israel." While they who hold contrary sentiments, although they be descended from him and bear his appellation, have yet fallen away from all these things, both the relationship and the name itself. But it is in their power to be true Israelites, who keep this rule, who desist from the old ways, and follow after grace."

Further proof of who are the real Israelites, in God's eyes:
Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to me, all you who follow after righteousness.
Consider the Rock [Jesus] from which you were cut. {born again]
Consider Abraham your father and Sarah who gave you birth. [Spiritually]
When I called him, he was only one, I Blessed him and made him many.

People who try to make the mixed race peoples of the Jewish State of Israel, into anything other than just another basically atheistic nation, are fooling themselves and have missed seeing the amazing Plan of God to obtain for Himself a people who bear the proper fruit of the Spirit.

Biblewriter said:

Many people insist that in Bible prophecy, the many promises made to “Israel,” actually meant “the church.” This doctrine is defended by a wide spectrum of ideas. One end of this spectrum is a claim that all the promises of God are conditional, and that “Israel,” having failed to meet the conditions of the promises made to her, lost them, and they were transferred to “the church.” At the opposite end of ths spectrum is a claim that there has only been one single “people of God” throughout all the ages. So this one “people of God,” which were called “Israel” in the Old Testament, are the same people that are now called “the church.” But however this doctrine is reached, the people who teach it insist that it is clearly taught in the New Testament. This claim, however, is factually incorrect. There are, indeed, a few places in the New Testament that can rationally be INTERPRETED to mean that “the church” is “Israel.” But there is NOT EVEN ONE passage, anywhere in the entire Bible, that actually SAYS that. So this doctrine is UNQUESTIONABLY based on INTERPRETATION, rather than on EVEN ONE actual statement of scripture.

But while they INTERPRET the name “Israel” to mean “the church,” this INTERPRETATION falls down when we come to the many other names used by God in making the many promises found in the Old Testament. For God did not JUST promise end time blessings to the NATION of Israel. (And, yes, He actually did specifically use the word “NATION.”) He also made similar promises to each of the ancient sub-nations of Ephraim and Judah, and to each of the twelve tribes of Israel by name. And no scripture even HINTS at an idea that ANY of these fourteen other names means “the church.”

This INTERPRETATION also breaks down when we come to God’s EXPLICITLY STATED promises concerning a PLOT OF REAL ESTATE in the Middle East. Ezekiel 36:1-10 promises the “mountains of Israel,” along with “the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken,” that they will again be “inhabited” by “all the house of Israel, all of it.” Further, Ezekiel 47:13-20 SPECIFICALLY defines the borders of this PLOT OF REAL ESTATE, and the following chapter, Ezekiel 48, specifies how this PLOT OF REAL ESTATE will be divided among the twelve tribes of Israel, naming each tribe, and specifying the location of its individual PLOT OF REAL ESTATE. There is no rational way to even PRETEND that all this refers to “the church.”

The end result of this doctrine is that these people are using THEIR INTERPRETATIONS of the MEANINGS of some scriptures that NEVER, EVEN ONCE, actually SAY what they INTERPRET them to MEAN, as an excuse to DENY that other scriptures MEAN what they EXPLICITLY SAY.

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Of course. Israel means Israel. It isn't difficult to understand.

The church has had an identity crisis from its very beginning. If the church REALLY knew what God has promised them, they would not covet the promises made to Israel. Also, they seem to think God cannot manage more than one covenant at a time.
God made a covenant with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and the church. Did any covenant replace or delete any prior covenant? Of course not. God can multi-task. He is building HIS kingdom and He knows what He is doing.

Acts29 said:

Did any covenant replace or delete any prior covenant? Of course not.

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Matthew 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

2 Corinthians 3
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Acts29 said:

Of course. Israel means Israel. It isn't difficult to understand.

The church has had an identity crisis from its very beginning. If the church REALLY knew what God has promised them, they would not covet the promises made to Israel. Also, they seem to think God cannot manage more than one covenant at a time.
God made a covenant with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and the church. Did any covenant replace or delete any prior covenant? Of course not. God can multi-task. He is building HIS kingdom and He knows what He is doing.

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Where do you get this from? Colossians 2:14 plainly and unambiguously declares, that Christ's atonement resulted in the “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The Greek word for “Blotting out” here is exaleiphō (eks-ä-lā'-fō) meaning: ‘to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out’

These old covenant ordinances (rites and rituals) pertaining to the ceremonial law were obliterated at the cross.

For those that still anticipate the renaissance of the old abolished ordinances we need to ask: When did (or will) the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances” occur? From this passage it is clear, Christ “took it out of the way” by “nailing it to his cross.” These ordinances embraced the old covenant civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. They were finished at the cross.

Colossians 2:16-17 tells us: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

The Greek word translated “holyday” here is heorte meaning feast or festival. Of 27 mentions of this word in the normally precise KJV, it is interpreted “feast” in all of them apart from here.

New American Standard interprets: “Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”

The Living Bible says, “So don't let anyone criticize you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating Jewish holidays and feasts or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these were only temporary rules that ended when Christ came. They were only shadows of the real thing-of Christ himself.”

Paul is saying here that the old covenant feasts and festivals simply served as types and shadows of things that were to come. They looked forward to the new covenant arrangement and the reality and substance in Christ. The Jews of Ezekiel’s day and Zechariah’s day would never have understood this.

Colossians 2:20-22 finally sums up the sums up the biblical position today: “Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?”

This is not talking about the moral law, it is talking about the ceremonial law. It is a redundant system. Christ took the whole old system away. The old Mosaic ceremonial law is completely gone. It is useless.

Christianity took us away from the old Mosaic ceremonial law completely. Those who argue for a return to the old system fail to see that it has been rendered obsolete through the new covenant.

Hebrews 7:18-19 makes clear: “For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”

This word “disannulling” is taken from the Greek word athetesis meaning cancellation.

The phrase “weakness and unprofitableness” used here to describe the old abolished system actually reads asthenes kai anopheles literally meaning: feeble and impotent useless and unprofitable.

It is hard to believe that you would promote the return, on the new earth of all places, of such a hopeless discarded arrangement.