Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Ceallaigh · Nov 29, 2021

Fervent said:
Not at all. Just an understanding of Greek case endings and what they imply. There's nothing complicated about the grammar, any one literate in Greek would be able to understand it without issue. The issue is that in English we can infer an implicit subject for "all" but reality is that it's an adjective not a noun so it requires more to be a substantive. The meaning is clear in English when the context is considered, but the Greek grammar removes any possible doubt that the translation introduced.

So you're saying that you're fully literate in Koine Greek?

Fervent · Nov 29, 2021

MMXX said:
So you're saying that you're fully literate in Koine Greek?

Literate enough to translate passages with the assistance of Accordance. We're talking prepostions and nouns which is all taught within the first semester of a college course on Greek.

Ceallaigh · Nov 29, 2021

Fervent said:
Has MMXX finally stopped denying that he's a UR proponent?

Considering that my mind isn't made up regarding UR, would it be honest for me to say that I'm a proponent of it?

Der Alte · Nov 29, 2021

MMXX said:
* **

MMXX said:
Doesn't everything belong to He who made it?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Ceallaigh · Nov 29, 2021

Fervent said:
Literate enough to translate passages with the assistance of Accordance. We're talking prepostions and nouns which is all taught within the first semester of a college course on Greek.

What do you mean by assistance of Accordance? And what exactly is your formal education in Koine Greek?

Fervent · Nov 29, 2021

MMXX said:
Considering that my mind isn't made up regarding UR, would it be honest for me to say that I'm a proponent of it?

If your mind isn't made up, why do you keep trying to invent ways to preserve 1 Cor 15 as a proof text when the UR reading has been eliminated both based on Paul's central theme in the passage as well as being grammatically eliminated in the Greek?

Fervent · Nov 29, 2021

MMXX said:
What do you mean by assistance of Accordance? And what exactly is your formal education in Koine Greek?

By assistance of Accordance I mean that I rely on Accordance to fill gaps in my vocabulary and occasionally to identify the case of some of the nouns and adjectives to some degree(I always forget the genitive and dative endings), but primarily use it in order to conjugate difficult verbs and identify the purpose of certain features like the middle voice in difficult passages. So software-assisted translation is about the extent of my literacy. My formal training in Koine Greek is equivalent to completing a first year seminary program of Greek, meaning nouns, prepositions and some verbal conjugation.

Ceallaigh · Nov 29, 2021

Der Alte said:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Considering at least some of that applies to all of us, isn't that what redemption is all about?

And if I want to see how those verses are reasoned out, I'd be inclined to see what once saved always saved teachers have to say about it. Although that's another issue I haven't made up my mind on.

Ceallaigh · Nov 29, 2021

Fervent said:
If your mind isn't made up, why do you keep trying to invent ways to preserve 1 Cor 15 as a proof text when the UR reading has been eliminated both based on Paul's central theme in the passage as well as being grammatically eliminated in the Greek?

From my perspective you're the one inventing ways to prove something doesn't say what it appears to say, and I'm challenging that because of the fact that my mind isn't made up.

Fervent · Nov 29, 2021

MMXX said:
From my perspective you're the one inventing ways to prove something doesn't say what it says, and I'm challenging that because of the fact that my mind isn't made up.

I'm not inventing anything, in English there are two possibilities as constructed:
1)All die in Adam, all are made alive in Christ.
2)All in Adam die, all in Christ are made alive.

In the first case we have an implied subject(as "all" being an adjective cannot be the subject on its own) and you read that "all" as referring to mankind or some other construction necessary to make UR work. But all just means every member of a class and we cannot assume what class is meant, or even that they are referring to the same class as these are independent clauses. In the second case, it is clear that there are two different classes and it requires argument that these two different classes are actually the same class. To assume it is nothing more than to bring into the verse the very meaning you are trying to prove from it by way of assumption. So the UR reading depends upon the first case being the correct form, with the preposition in the predicate. But the Greek doesn't have that ambiguity as it is clear that "in Adam" and "in Christ" are in the subject of the sentence and that they are what completes "all" to make it a substantive. It's not invention, it's called grammar.

Ceallaigh · Nov 30, 2021

Fervent said:
I'm not inventing anything, in English there are two possibilities as constructed:
1)All die in Adam, all are made alive in Christ.
2)All in Adam die, all in Christ are made alive.

In the first case we have an implied subject(as "all" being an adjective cannot be the subject on its own) and you read that "all" as referring to mankind or some other construction necessary to make UR work. But all just means every member of a class and we cannot assume what class is meant, or even that they are referring to the same class as these are independent clauses. In the second case, it is clear that there are two different classes and it requires argument that these two different classes are actually the same class. To assume it is nothing more than to bring into the verse the very meaning you are trying to prove from it by way of assumption. So the UR reading depends upon the first case being the correct form, with the preposition in the predicate. But the Greek doesn't have that ambiguity as it is clear that "in Adam" and "in Christ" are in the subject of the sentence and that they are what completes "all" to make it a substantive. It's not invention, it's called grammar.

It seems to me that you're the one making a simple straightforward sentence into something ambiguous, requiring complicated grammatical formulas and the use of software to get right. Since you demonstrate being quite determined to reject what you see as a "UR reading to make UR work" I don't see how you can view it objectively. Rather it seems you're building a clock to tell someone what time it is via conformation bias.

Hmm · Nov 30, 2021

Der Alte said:
As they say in Greek αν περπατάει σαν πάπια If it walks like a duck.

Or as they say in Team Hell, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a member of one of the numerous species of waterfowl in the family Anatidae, not to be confused with loons or divers, grebes, gallinules or coots.

Ceallaigh · Nov 30, 2021

Hmm said:
Or as they say in Team Hell, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a member of one of the numerous species of waterfowl in the family Anatidae, not to be confused with loons or divers, grebes, gallinules or coots.

Who are you calling a coot?

Hmm · Nov 30, 2021

Der Alte said:
the Hell No! crowd will not accept what it literally means

Quite the opposite. It's the Hell No! crowd who are saying that "all" literally means "all" in this verse.

As they do in the following verses:

1. “This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)

2. “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11)

3. “God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation.” (Col. 1:19, 21, 22)

4. In Jesus Christ is “the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:21)

5. The Gospel is “good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” (Luke 2:10)

6. God appointed Jesus “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” (Heb. 1:2)

7. “And I, [Jesus] if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (literally “drag” in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)

8. “As God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God have Him.” (John 17:2)

9. The Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” (John 13:3)

10. “Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18)

11. Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

12. Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)

13. “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

14. “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.” (John 3:35)

15. “Since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)

16. Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Co. 1:15, 16)

17. “All shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)

18. “The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)

19. “Of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36)

20. “Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)

21. “Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

22. “All nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Ps. 86:9)

23. God’s Spirit “will be poured out on all flesh.” (Joel 2:28)

24. “The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

25. “The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)

26. “The earth is the Lord’s and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.” (Ps. 24:1)

27. “All the kings of the earth shall praise you, 0 Lord, when they hear the words of your mouth.” (Ps. 138:4)

28. “The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works. ALL your works shall praise you, Oh Lord.” (Ps.145:8-10)

29. “All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. All those who go down to the dust (death) shall bow before You.” (Ps. 22:27, 29)

30. “Oh You Who hears prayer, to you all flesh will come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them.” (Ps. 65:2-4)

31. “Through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. all the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you.” (Ps. 66:3, 4)

32. “There is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; there is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord all the descendants of Israel shall be justifed and shall glory.” (Isaiah 45:21-25)

33. “In this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And he shall destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces.” (Isaiah 25:6-8)

34. “All the nations of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 18:18)

35. “All the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 12:3, 28:14)
Romans chapter 1 through chapter 11 culminates in his emphatic declaration: “For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” (Rom 11:32)

That's my naive reading anyway but I think I'll stick with it unless you can demonstrate that "all" doesn't mean "all" in all these verses. Do you not think Scripture is trying to tell us something important with this repetition of "all", to say nothing of all the "every's" and "whole worlds" etc. in many other verses?

Sometimes we need to put aside our preconceptions and simply listen to what the Bible is saying rather than trying to explain it away all the time with pseudo-scholarship.

Ceallaigh · Nov 30, 2021

Der Alte said:
Well I tried that about 2 decades or so ago but UR-ites like you came back with "Yeah but what about this, that or the other?" So I responded with more research and acquired more current resources, e.g. BDAG, BDB, EOB, etc. I cover all the bases out of the gate. And I'm in no hurry, take your time read any of my posts try, try, try to refute anything I post. This is basically my full time job, I'm retired X3.
I have stated what I believe a multitude of times but nobody wants to hear it, they bombard me with their laundry list of out-of-context proof texts. Then I have head them off at the pass and provide my evidence.
See e.g. how in this thread. 1 Cor 15:22 is repeatedly interpreted out-of-context

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
I have explained it more than once another poster has also explained it but the Hell No! crowd will not accept what it literally means.
It is impossible to understand "in Adam" and "in Christ" the same way. As written both occurrence of the word "in" are present tense. But we know that all mankind is NOT "in Christ."

Funny, I was watching a pastor going over UR on youtube, and he mentioned all the "yeah buts" to what he was presenting. As far as education, experience and resources go, you know there are UR proponents who can match any UR opponent out there. So going on about qualifications and credentials et al seems moot considering both sides have them in spades.

Der Alte said:
Well I tried that about 2 decades or so ago but UR-ites like you came back with "Yeah but what about this, that or the other?" So I responded with more research and acquired more current resources, e.g. BDAG, BDB, EOB, etc. I cover all the bases out of the gate. And I'm in no hurry, take your time read any of my posts try, try, try to refute anything I post. This is basically my full time job, I'm retired X3.
I have stated what I believe a multitude of times but nobody wants to hear it, they bombard me with their laundry list of out-of-context proof texts. Then I have head them off at the pass and provide my evidence.
See e.g. how in this thread. 1 Cor 15:22 is repeatedly interpreted out-of-context

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
I have explained it more than once another poster has also explained it but the Hell No! crowd will not accept what it literally means.
It is impossible to understand "in Adam" and "in Christ" the same way. As written both occurrence of the word "in" are present tense. But we know that all mankind is NOT "in Christ."

Sounds to me like you felt you had to resort to a certain method if tactics, like your gish gallops, that allow you to crow about their surrender and your victory, over and over. Stuck in a loop.

Ceallaigh · Nov 30, 2021

Hmm said:
Quite the opposite. It's the Hell No! crowd who are saying that "all" literally means "all" in this verse.

As they do in the following verses:

1. “This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)

2. “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11)

3. “God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation.” (Col. 1:19, 21, 22)

4. In Jesus Christ is “the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:21)

5. The Gospel is “good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” (Luke 2:10)

6. God appointed Jesus “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” (Heb. 1:2)

7. “And I, [Jesus] if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (literally “drag” in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)

8. “As God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God have Him.” (John 17:2)

9. The Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” (John 13:3)

10. “Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18)

11. Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

12. Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)

13. “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

14. “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.” (John 3:35)

15. “Since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)

16. Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Co. 1:15, 16)

17. “All shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)

18. “The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)

19. “Of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36)

20. “Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)

21. “Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

22. “All nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Ps. 86:9)

23. God’s Spirit “will be poured out on all flesh.” (Joel 2:28)

24. “The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

25. “The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)

26. “The earth is the Lord’s and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.” (Ps. 24:1)

27. “All the kings of the earth shall praise you, 0 Lord, when they hear the words of your mouth.” (Ps. 138:4)

28. “The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works. ALL your works shall praise you, Oh Lord.” (Ps.145:8-10)

29. “All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. All those who go down to the dust (death) shall bow before You.” (Ps. 22:27, 29)

30. “Oh You Who hears prayer, to you all flesh will come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them.” (Ps. 65:2-4)

31. “Through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. all the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you.” (Ps. 66:3, 4)

32. “There is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; there is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord all the descendants of Israel shall be justifed and shall glory.” (Isaiah 45:21-25)

33. “In this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And he shall destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces.” (Isaiah 25:6-8)

34. “All the nations of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 18:18)

35. “All the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 12:3, 28:14)
Romans chapter 1 through chapter 11 culminates in his emphatic declaration: “For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” (Rom 11:32)

That's my naive reading anyway but I think I'll stick with it unless you can demonstrate that "all" doesn't mean "all" in all these verses. Do you not think Scripture is trying to tell us something important with this repetition of "all", to say nothing of all the "every's" and "whole worlds" etc. in many other verses?

Sometimes we need to put aside our preconceptions and simply listen to what the Bible is saying rather than trying to explain it away all the time with pseudo-scholarship.

Yeah, but...

Fervent · Nov 30, 2021

MMXX said:
It seems to me that you're the one making a simple straightforward sentence into something ambiguous, requiring complicated grammatical formulas and the use of software to get right. Since you demonstrate being quite determined to reject what you see as a "UR reading to make UR work" I don't see how you can view it objectively. Rather it seems you're building a clock to tell someone what time it is via conformation bias.

Then clearly you don't understand what I am saying. As written the position of the preposition is ambiguous and my two re-writings remove that ambiguity to show the possibilities. It's not "complicated grammatical formulas" as it is purely about the positioning of the preposition, whether it is in the subject or the predicate. It's about as basic as grammar gets, and if you don't understand grammar then you cannot truly parse a sentence so your interpretation skills are essentially worthless. "All" is a describing word(since adjective seems too complicated for you) so we have to know what it is describing for it to be the subject. So where do you find what "all" is describing?

Fervent · Nov 30, 2021

Hmm said:
Quite the opposite. It's the Hell No! crowd who are saying that "all" literally means "all" in this verse.=

That's not the issue at all, because "all" certainly means "all." But "all" is an adjective, not a noun. So "all" what? "All" Europeans? "All" sparrows? "All" chickens? What does "all" refer to?

Ceallaigh · Nov 30, 2021

Fervent said:
Then clearly you don't understand what I am saying. As written the position of the preposition is ambiguous and my two re-writings remove that ambiguity to show the possibilities. It's not "complicated grammatical formulas" as it is purely about the positioning of the preposition, whether it is in the subject or the predicate. It's about as basic as grammar gets, and if you don't understand grammar then you cannot truly parse a sentence so your interpretation skills are essentially worthless. "All" is a describing word(since adjective seems too complicated for you) so we have to know what it is describing for it to be the subject. So where do you find what "all" is describing?

Just because I think you're overcomplicating it, doesn't mean that it's too complicated for me.

Fervent · Nov 30, 2021

MMXX said:
Just because I think you're overcomplicating it, doesn't mean that it's too complicated for me.

If you think basic grammar is complicated, then it's too complicated for you. It is essentially as if we are talking math and I speak of arithmatic and you call that overcomplicated. It's basic elements of semantics.

Ceallaigh · Nov 30, 2021

Fervent said:
If you think basic grammar is complicated, then it's too complicated for you. It is essentially as if we are talking math and I speak of arithmatic and you call that overcomplicated. It's basic elements of semantics.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. If you want to make yourself out to be smarter and better educated, you should avoid that. As for all your posturing, I know of Greek Orthodox PhD's who hold the UR view of that and other verses.

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

May God be with you and bless you.

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