Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

I suppose when you run out of bullet points, you start slinging some other stuff.

Hmm said:

By their fruits etc. The Bible has so much wisdom.

Click to expand...

Such deep wisdom that we can never find the bottom.

Deleted double post.

Hmm said:

How do you know that it's a "question of basic grammar" if you're not a specialist?

As you're now self-admittedly a non-expert in ancient Greek, why are you continuing to insist on your own theories rather than cite authoritive opinion?

Click to expand...

Your "expert" didn't try to argue some special case, and I know enough Greek grammar to break down a simple prepositional phrase in a sentence. I don't need to blindly rely on an "authority" as I can look at the arguments of experts and sift them myself. What you are trying to do now is simply make an argument from authority in a fallacious manner. If you don't understand the grammar how can you determine who is "an authority?"

MMXX said:

So the red part and the blue part have two completely different meanings? "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

Click to expand...

Something like that. As presented, Paul is actually making a double point(I'll spare you the explanation of the case endings and the function of the article in the sentence though I will get into that if you want). The translator essentially introduced an ambiguity into the English by preserving the word order that is not present in the Greek because of how the different grammars function. A more readily understandable reading would have the subject precede the preposition "For as all in Adam die, all in Christ will be made alive." Though Paul likely intended it to be understood both as a headship issue(i.e. inclusion in Christ leads to life) as well as indicating causation(through Christ's death He brought new life).

Hmm said:

But it's very hard to refute you comrade because you surround whatever it is you want to say with with masses of copied and pasted text. If you simply said what you believed, you would get more responses. I suspect though that that's the last thing you want.

Click to expand...

Well I tried that about 2 decades or so ago but UR-ites like you came back with "Yeah but what about this, that or the other?" So I responded with more research and acquired more current resources, e.g. BDAG, BDB, EOB, etc. I cover all the bases out of the gate. And I'm in no hurry, take your time read any of my posts try, try, try to refute anything I post. This is basically my full time job, I'm retired X3.
I have stated what I believe a multitude of times but nobody wants to hear it, they bombard me with their laundry list of out-of-context proof texts. Then I have head them off at the pass and provide my evidence.
See e.g. how in this thread. 1 Cor 15:22 is repeatedly interpreted out-of-context
I have explained it more than once another poster has also explained it but the Hell No! crowd will not accept what it literally means.
It is impossible to understand "in Adam" and "in Christ" the same way. As written both occurrence of the word "in" are present tense. But we know that all mankind is NOT "in Christ."

Fervent said:

Something like that. As presented, Paul is actually making a double point(I'll spare you the explanation of the case endings and the function of the article in the sentence though I will get into that if you want). The translator essentially introduced an ambiguity into the English by preserving the word order that is not present in the Greek because of how the different grammars function. A more readily understandable reading would have the subject precede the preposition "For as all in Adam die, all in Christ will be made alive." Though Paul likely intended it to be understood both as a headship issue(i.e. inclusion in Christ leads to life) as well as indicating causation(through Christ's death He brought new life).

Click to expand...

So you could come up with quite a longer and more complicated explanation of why it doesn't say what it looks like it's saying.

Major1 said:

The Order of Resurrection
…21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Click to expand...

Doesn't everything belong to He who made it?

Major1 said:

YES!

ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23)

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Jesus Christ, fixed what Adam broke for ALL who will accept His payment for their sins.

It is not brain surgery!

Click to expand...

In other words, no further thought should be put into it.

Major1 said:

You have proved that that is not the case either.

It is all about READING the Bible and believing what it says. It is actually just that simple!

Click to expand...

But if it's something like; "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive" then it's time to do brain surgery?

MMXX said:

So you could come up with quite a longer and more complicated explanation of why it doesn't say what it looks like it's saying.

Click to expand...

I could give a full accounting of the grammar to show that the ambiguity necessary for the UR reading is not present in the Greek.

Fervent said:

I could give a full accounting of the grammar to show that the ambiguity necessary for the UR reading is not present in the Greek.

Click to expand...

In other words contrary to Major1's assertion, advanced brain surgery is required.

MMXX said:

In other words contrary to Major1's assertion, advanced brain surgery is required.

Click to expand...

Not at all. Just an understanding of Greek case endings and what they imply. There's nothing complicated about the grammar, any one literate in Greek would be able to understand it without issue. The issue is that in English we can infer an implicit subject for "all" but reality is that it's an adjective not a noun so it requires more to be a substantive. The meaning is clear in English when the context is considered, but the Greek grammar removes any possible doubt that the translation introduced.

MMXX said:

* * *

Click to expand...

MMXX said:

In other words contrary to Major1's assertion, advanced brain surgery is required.

Click to expand...

Crystal clear evidence that the UR-ites have capitulated. Their only recourse now is resorting to ad hominems.

Der Alte said:

Crystal clear evidence that the UR-ites have capitulated. Their only recourse now is resorting to ad hominems.

Click to expand...

Has MMXX finally stopped denying that he's a UR proponent?

Fervent said:

Has MMXX finally stopped denying that he's a UR proponent?

Click to expand...

As they say in Greek αν περπατάει σαν πάπια If it walks like a duck.

Der Alte said:

Crystal clear evidence that the UR-ites have capitulated. Their only recourse now is resorting to ad hominems.

Click to expand...

Cool story bro, now how about answering some of the questions I've asked you.

Der Alte said:

As they say in Greek αν περπατάει σαν πάπια If it walks like a duck.

Click to expand...

What was that you said about ad hominems?