Responding to the 'closed canon' argument against special revelations and sign gifts?

TruthSeek3r said:

How about asking for confirmation? Next time they come to you with a word from God, ask them to tell you a word of knowledge. If God is talking to them, it shouldn't be hard for God to reveal to them something that only God and you know. That way, you will know that it's God who is talking to them.

Click to expand...

Amen. I'm guessing the answers one would get from a question like that would reveal quite a lot about those who profess to have a "gift." That's not to say that someone with a true word would always be able to provide such confirmation, but they would at least give you a confident answer of some sort. The frauds would probably just look at you a little dumbfounded, or even get a little snappy about it.

So be it. People should be held more accountable, IMO.

Hidden In Him said:

Amen. I'm guessing the answers one would get from a question like that would reveal quite a lot about those who profess to have a "gift." That's not to say that someone with a true word would always be able to provide such confirmation, but they would at least give you a confident answer of some sort. The frauds would probably just look at you a little dumbfounded, or even get a little snappy about it.

So be it. People should be held more accountable, IMO.

Click to expand...

I think that's a bit unfair and quite unscriptural.
The Lord has given me countless prophetic words or snippets of revelation about certain events or for certain people, but those revelations are often stand alone items, and I cannot then drum up additional stuff from the Lord just because someone demands it.

Francis Drake said:

I think that's a bit unfair and quite unscriptural.
The Lord has given me countless prophetic words or snippets of revelation about certain events or for certain people, but those revelations are often stand alone items, and I cannot then drum up additional stuff from the Lord just because someone demands it.

Click to expand...

You know, I think I may have to stand corrected here a little bit. I'm pretty strong on demanding we prove what we preach, but I may have to be careful about going overboard. I seem to be vacillating back and forth right now, and I might wanna be careful about going off some deep end myself. I'm honestly not quite sure atm.

I think that's why I qualified it with "at least you would get a confident answer of some sort."

Hidden In Him said:

But they started misinterpreting those writings in various ways - some fairly quickly and some over time - and this brings up the major problem I have with the "no new revelation" argument. The term "revelation" can rightly be applied to receiving insight into accurate interpretation of the scriptures, and my question to you would be this: Do you believe the church currently understands the totality of the Old and New Testaments accurately? I ask, because if the answer is no, then it implies that "new revelation" is still needed.

Click to expand...

I believe that the Holy Spirit has said all He has to say to us in the written Scriptures. I believe that if we need new revelation it would be fresh insight into what has already been written, not new additions to the Scriptures. The only book of the Bible that was never finished was Acts, because that story will not end until the end of the church age. Acts is still being written in the history of the church and the ongoing spread of the Gospel.

Hidden In Him said:

Ok, now this I entirely disagree with, Oscarr. You make it sound as if Peter just got up and started preaching, when the first thing to occur was that the Holy Spirt Himself started speaking to Jews from every nationality present in their own native tongues. And Paul said tongues are "a sign to the unbeliever." Where do you get some of the stuff you believe? I think you went off the deep end into adopting conservative theology at some point, without really stopping to analyze by scripture what it was you were adopting. That's not a slight. It's just something that comes to mind when I read some of your posts.

Click to expand...

Seeing that I have an M.A. in English, and so have some comprehension skills, and have an M.Div, and so I know how to interpret Scripture. I know what Acts 2 says quite clearly. Peter got up and preached to the people after they had reacted to what they heard when they heard the speaking of tongues in their own regional dialects, speaking of the wonderful works of God. The ones speaking in tongues were not preaching the Gospel to the people as some (who like to make the Bible say what they want it to say) try to make us believe.

I just reflect what I see in what the Bible actually says, and I ignore what it doesn't say. I do adopt conservative theology, but I am also a continuist as far as the gifts of the Spirit are concerned. It is quite clear to me, because Paul actually says it, that the spiritual gifts are for the building up of the body of Christ. They are the tools of the Spirit for Spirit-filled believers. The signs and wonders that occurred in the ministry of Paul to the unconverted were not the spiritual gifts. They were God's sovereign acts to support the preaching of the Gospel through Paul. And, I believe that anyone with the calibre of Paul in these days preaching the same Gospel he preached should expect the same signs and wonders to accompany the preaching. These signs and wonders were the healing of the sick, casting out of demons, and raising the dead.

The tongues heard on the day of Pentecost were the sign to the unbelievers, but the tongues that Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 14 were part of the tools of the Spirit to build up the body of Christ. This goes along with "various tongues" mentioned in Paul's list of the spiritual gifts. There are personal tongues for private prayer, tongues and interpretation in church, and tongues spoken in front of unbelievers who understand the language but know that the speaker never learned it. A good example is the Cantonese woman sitting in an evangelistic meeting, and someone behind her was praying in tongues, and she understood what the person was saying in pure Cantonese: "You need to go forward and receive Christ as your Saviour". That is an example of tongues being a sign to an unbeliever.

Francis Drake said:

Acts 2 says the opposite.
17‘And it will be in the last days, God says, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh,
Do you understand what all flesh means?

I don't know where you get your theology from, but Eph2.11 says nothing of the sort.

Click to expand...

What do you think Ephesians 2:11-12 is saying then?

Oscarr said:

I believe that if we need new revelation it would be fresh insight into what has already been written, not new additions to the Scriptures.

Click to expand...

Then we're agreed on that.

Oscarr said:

Seeing that I have an M.A. in English, and so have some comprehension skills, and have an M.Div, and so I know how to interpret Scripture.

Click to expand...

Oscarr, just be on guard. This can be a liability rather than a strength. Some of your posts are very revealing about how you arrive at your positions. As I stated, you appear to have gone overboard on conservative theology at some point, and this may have been where. I own a library full of scholarship, and they are not always right.

Oscarr said:

The ones speaking in tongues were not preaching the Gospel to the people as some (who like to make the Bible say what they want it to say) try to make us believe.

Click to expand...

And how do you prove this exegetically? The text states that those who were speaking in tongues were Galileans. (Acts 2:1-7).

1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?

Oscarr said:

The signs and wonders that occurred in the ministry of Paul to the unconverted were not the spiritual gifts. And... these signs and wonders were the healing of the sick, casting out of demons, and raising the dead.

Click to expand...

Statements like these truly baffle me. Signs and wonders are not spiritual gifts? How is healing not a spiritual gift? (1 Corinthians 12:9)

Are you interpreting a "spiritual gift" to be an individual act rather than a spiritual endowment? If so, that would be taking the term out of context IMO.

Hidden In Him said:

Then we're agreed on that.


Oscarr, just be on guard. This can be a liability rather than a strength. Some of your posts are very revealing about how you arrive at your positions. As I stated, you appear to have gone overboard on conservative theology at some point, and this may have been where. I own a library full of scholarship, and they are not always right.


And how do you prove this exegetically? The text states that those who were speaking in tongues were Galileans. (Acts 2:1-7).

1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?


Statements like these truly baffle me. Signs and wonders are not spiritual gifts? How is healing not a spiritual gift? (1 Corinthians 12:9)

Are you interpreting a "spiritual gift" to be an individual act rather than a spiritual endowment? If so, that would be taking the term out of context IMO.

Click to expand...

The miracle of tongues being spoken by uneducated Galileans in every regional dialect was a sign miracle to show that Jesus had truly risen from the dead, and that the Holy Spirit had arrived. The tongues were the sign that the disciples had now received the promised enduement of power. The language the unconverted listeners heard was the sign to them that God was present among them. Peter's sermon was not in tongues. It was probably in Aramaic or Greek (the universal language of the time) and he explained what the sign was all about - that the Jesus whom they crucified had risen from the dead and was now Lord and Christ. It was not the tongues that cut the listeners to the heart. It was Peter's message explaining the obvious miracle.

I am amazed that you can't see the difference between the spiritual gifts that Paul lists in 1 Corinthians 12 and the signs and wonders that accompanied his ministry to the unconverted Gentiles. Granted, they were both manifestations of the same Spirit, but had two different purposes. The spiritual gifts are available to every Christian believer as the Spirit wills in the way He decides to distribute them. Paul is very clear in 1 Corinthians 12 that the nine gifts of the Spirit were for the building up of the body of Christ. This means that the gifts are the tools that come with the filling of the Holy Spirit for every believer. They are manifested in the church meeting environment, not out in the market place where the Gospel is preached to the unconverted. But there is an aspect of the prophetic gift where an unbeliever comes into a Christian service and the power of the prophetic exposes the state of his heart and he falls on his face acknowledging that God is truly among them. I have seen this happen in at least two Christian conferences where the prophetic was being manifested, and as a result people, even those with the most harden hearts were on their knees, weeping before God and getting right with Him. I never saw any out of control tongues, jerking, shaking or people being "slain in the Spirit" in these conferences, because that is not how the Holy Spirit's power is manifested in people. When the power of the Holy Spirit is present, the prophetic is manifested and hardened people are cut to the heart and they get down before God getting right with Him. I have seen all the other wacky backy manifestations, but never saw anyone getting on their knees and weeping before God in repentance as a result. When one sees the real power of the Holy Spirit causing people to get right with God, it makes the wacky backy stuff appear what is really is - froth and bubble signifying nothing.

But the signs and wonders that accompany the preaching of the Gospel is not for every believer. It is for those who are specifically called of God to preach the Gospel in power. It is for those who are prepared to put themselves in harm's way in pagan cultures where they put their lives on the line. For example, there are reports of amazing miracles happening while the Gospel has been preached in Muslim countries where it is death to even own a Bible. Street work on the streets of New York or any western city is nothing and many can do it without any fear of being killed, and so one mustn't be surprised if the signs and wonders are missing.

Paul and Barnabas lived and worked in constant fear of their lives as they went throughout the known world preaching the Gospel. Paul was actually stoned to death at Lystra and was raised from the dead through the prayers of the disciples. He spent years in prison and finally met his end under Nero. So, there is no surprise when signs and wonders accompanied his preaching of the Gospel.

Therefore the signs and wonders that accompany the preaching of the Gospel is exclusively for those who are called to preach the Gospel in the most dangerous areas of the world. The ministry of apostleship is the only ministry that includes these signs and wonders. This type of apostle is quite different from the "new" apostles that minister mainly in Christian conferences and go nowhere near any dangerous environment. They might claim signs and wonders, but when we look at what actually happens, there are promises but no more than that.

Oscarr said:

Seeing that I have an M.A. in English, and so have some comprehension skills, and have an M.Div, and so I know how to interpret Scripture. I know what Acts 2 says quite clearly. Peter got up and preached to the people after they had reacted to what they heard when they heard the speaking of tongues in their own regional dialects, speaking of the wonderful works of God. The ones speaking in tongues were not preaching the Gospel to the people as some (who like to make the Bible say what they want it to say) try to make us believe.

I just reflect what I see in what the Bible actually says, and I ignore what it doesn't say. I do adopt conservative theology, but I am also a continuist as far as the gifts of the Spirit are concerned. It is quite clear to me, because Paul actually says it, that the spiritual gifts are for the building up of the body of Christ. They are the tools of the Spirit for Spirit-filled believers. The signs and wonders that occurred in the ministry of Paul to the unconverted were not the spiritual gifts. They were God's sovereign acts to support the preaching of the Gospel through Paul. And, I believe that anyone with the calibre of Paul in these days preaching the same Gospel he preached should expect the same signs and wonders to accompany the preaching. These signs and wonders were the healing of the sick, casting out of demons, and raising the dead.

The tongues heard on the day of Pentecost were the sign to the unbelievers, but the tongues that Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 14 were part of the tools of the Spirit to build up the body of Christ. This goes along with "various tongues" mentioned in Paul's list of the spiritual gifts. There are personal tongues for private prayer, tongues and interpretation in church, and tongues spoken in front of unbelievers who understand the language but know that the speaker never learned it. A good example is the Cantonese woman sitting in an evangelistic meeting, and someone behind her was praying in tongues, and she understood what the person was saying in pure Cantonese: "You need to go forward and receive Christ as your Saviour". That is an example of tongues being a sign to an unbeliever.

Click to expand...

Oscarr, I don't know what you are talking about either, in reference to tongues.

Tongues is not understood by anyone down here, period. That's what The Holy Spirit says, why would we try to find a way to say that people can?

ARBITER01 said:

Oscarr, I don't know what you are talking about either, in reference to tongues.

Tongues is not understood by anyone down here, period. That's what The Holy Spirit says, why would we try to find a way to say that people can?

Click to expand...

How come the people in the crowd were able to understand the tongues that were spoken on the Day of Pentecost?

Also, how come a friend of mine was praying in tongues in a church prayer meeting and was understood by a visiting Christian brother from Ghana, hearing my friend praising God in his own rural village dialect? And how come a New Zealand Maori lady told me that she heard me speaking encouraging things to her in fluent Maori as I was praying in tongues beside her? And what about another friend who, as a youngster spent time with his parents in a Pentecostal church in Kenya and heard men who had never seen an European in their lives before, coming in from the bush, getting saved, filled with the Spirit, then speaking in clear, fluent Oxford English when they spoke in tongues?

What about another testimony of a Cantonese woman who went forward to receive Christ in an evangelistic meeting because she heard the European man behind her speaking in fluent Cantonese that she should go forward and receive Christ? The European man had no idea he was speaking in fluent Cantonese while he was praying in tongues. In another meeting, a Welsh lady was amazed that an English man could speak such pure Welsh, which was impossible for anyone except someone born and raised in Wales. When she asked him how he achieved such fluency, he was shocked because all he knew what that he was praising God in tongues!

These are just a few of the many testimonies of people being clearly understood while praying in tongues. The result of these events was that many turned to Christ, because understandable tongues by those who have never learned the language is definitely a sign to the unbelievers.

Oscarr said:

How come the people in the crowd were able to understand the tongues that were spoken on the Day of Pentecost?

Click to expand...

We've been through this before Oscarr,... all of the gifts were poured out during that event, so if anyone heard human languages, it wasn't tongues, it was someone interpreting them or someone operating in the gift of prophesying.

The Holy Spirit is not going to operate a certain way in acts and then say that can't happen in Corinthians. That's called a contradiction,... and GOD doesn't do that.

Oscarr said:

It was not the tongues that cut the listeners to the heart. It was Peter's message explaining the obvious miracle.

Click to expand...

And it was the tongues which confirmed the word with signs and wonders following, or in this case, preceding.

Oscarr said:

Paul is very clear in 1 Corinthians 12 that the nine gifts of the Spirit were for the building up of the body of Christ.

Click to expand...

Ah... so you are saying that they are exclusively for the building up of the church. You are going to have a tough time separating out their use only to believers from any use to unbelievers by saying, "Signs and wonders are to the world, but spiritual gifts are to the church." By word of knowledge Jesus witnessed to the woman at the well, who was an unsaved Samaritan. By casting out of demons he exorcised the demon-possessed living in the tombs. By the gift of healing Paul and Barnabas healed a crippled man in Lystra, another unsaved man. Your position is forced, IMO, and goes part and parcel with your theory that there are "no more prophets to the nations," as if the world is no longer of any concern to the Lord.

I can't agree with you on any of this, I'm afraid. I think it is based upon errors in interpretation, with one error compounding upon another. But I don't suppose our discussion will be going anywhere, so I might back out before we go too much in circles. God bless, and thanks for the reply. As I can, I will respond to the things that really stick out to me.

Yours,
Hidden

ARBITER01 said:

We've been through this before Oscarr,... all of the gifts were poured out during that event, so if anyone heard human languages, it wasn't tongues, it was someone interpreting them or someone operating in the gift of prophesying.

The Holy Spirit is not going to operate a certain way in acts and then say that can't happen in Corinthians. That's called a contradiction,... and GOD doesn't do that.

Click to expand...

So are you calling my friend, me, and all the others who heard their native languages being spoken fluently while knowing that the people speaking had not learned the languages and had no idea they were speaking understandable language, are liars?

I heard a testimony where someone spoke in tongues in a meeting, and someone else interpreted, and a guy stood up in back and said that the person who spoke in tongues was speaking my native language, and the person interpreting it gave the exact interpretation of it. Was that person and all the others in the meeting who witnessed the event, lying as well?

I guess you wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of your theology, would you?

Oscarr said:

So are you calling my friend, me, and all the others who heard their native languages being spoken fluently while knowing that the people speaking had not learned the languages and had no idea they were speaking understandable language, are liars?

I heard a testimony where someone spoke in tongues in a meeting, and someone else interpreted, and a guy stood up in back and said that the person who spoke in tongues was speaking my native language, and the person interpreting it gave the exact interpretation of it. Was that person and all the others in the meeting who witnessed the event, lying as well?

I guess you wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of your theology, would you?

Click to expand...

It's not my theology, it is scripture,....

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but by the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

There is no way around this, unless you want to ignore this passage.

Experiences from people have to agree with scripture, if they don't, they are not to be accepted.

Hidden In Him said:

And it was the tongues which confirmed the word with signs and wonders following, or in this case, preceding.


Ah... so you are saying that they are exclusively for the building up of the church. You are going to have a tough time separating out their use only to believers from any use to unbelievers by saying, "Signs and wonders are to the world, but spiritual gifts are to the church." By word of knowledge Jesus witnessed to the woman at the well, who was an unsaved Samaritan. By casting out of demons he exorcised the demon-possessed living in the tombs. By the gift of healing Paul and Barnabas healed a crippled man in Lystra, another unsaved man. Your position is forced, IMO, and goes part and parcel with your theory that there are "no more prophets to the nations," as if the world is no longer of any concern to the Lord.

I can't agree with you on any of this, I'm afraid. I think it is based upon errors in interpretation, with one error compounding upon another. But I don't suppose our discussion will be going anywhere, so I might back out before we go too much in circles. God bless, and thanks for the reply. As I can, I will respond to the things that really stick out to me.

Yours,
Hidden

Click to expand...

Jesus' ministry in the case of the Samaritan woman was to an unconverted person and not a fellow Christian believer. Notice that Jesus never used any of the spiritual gifts when fellowshipping with His disciples. But as part of His ministry to the unconverted Jesus, the signs and wonders were an integral component of the good news that He was preaching to them.

A confirmation comes after an event, not before. The miracle of the tongues came before Peter's preaching. Therefore Peter's preaching was the confirmation, not the tongues. Interesting how people switch the common-sense part of their brain off when thinking about religious matters!

All I am doing to reflecting what the Bible is actually saying, not what I am trying to make it say. If Paul says that the nine gifts are for the building up of the body of Christ (the Christian church) then that is what they are for.

Casting out of demons was part of the signs and wonders that accompanied Paul's Gospel preaching. I don't see any gift of exorcism in the list of the nine gifts in 1 Corinthians 12. In Acts, casting out of demons was a part of the ministry of the Gospel to the unconverted pagans. There is no record in Acts where any demons were cast out of converted Christian believers.

ARBITER01 said:

It's not my theology, it is scripture,....

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but by the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

There is no way around this, unless you want to ignore this passage.

Experiences from people have to agree with scripture, if they don't, they are not to be accepted.

Click to expand...

So, if, like me, you were praying in tongues in church and the person beside you, a Chinese person, turned to you and said that you were praising God in fluent Mandarin Chinese, you would accuse him of lying?

So, Mrs Samuels, the bilingual New Zealand Maori lady from Palmerston North NZ one Sunday evening in 1976, who heard me speaking in fluent Maori language, a language I had never learned, praising God and saying encouraging things to her, was lying to me?

Oscarr said:

Jesus' ministry in the case of the Samaritan woman was to an unconverted person and not a fellow Christian believer. Notice that Jesus never used any of the spiritual gifts when fellowshipping with His disciples. But as part of His ministry to the unconverted Jesus, the signs and wonders were an integral component of the good news that He was preaching to them.

Click to expand...

This is a reversal of your position without acknowledging it, Oscarr. You'll have to forgive me but I am not into debate for debate's sake.

Hidden In Him said:

This is a reversal of your position without acknowledging it, Oscarr. You'll have to forgive me but I am not into debate for debate's sake.

Click to expand...

Okay. We will have to agree to disagree on it. If you can actually demonstrate the use of the spiritual gifts, including tongues as a confirmation of the Gospel preached to the unconverted, and be able to testify that unconverted people have turned to Christ and become long-term committed believers, then I might have reason to concede.

Oscarr said:

So, if, like me, you were praying in tongues in church and the person beside you, a Chinese person, turned to you and said that you were praising God in fluent Mandarin Chinese, you would accuse him of lying?

So, Mrs Samuels, the bilingual New Zealand Maori lady from Palmerston North NZ one Sunday evening in 1976, who heard me speaking in fluent Maori language, a language I had never learned, praising God and saying encouraging things to her, was lying to me?

Click to expand...

There's only one possibility with this Oscarr,....

If there is an utterance by The Holy Spirit, there must be a follow up utterance by The Holy Spirit in the gift of interpretation. Acts 2 was utterance by The Holy Spirit, so it required someone to interpret it in a known language by The Holy Spirit. Same as one would find in a church operating this way, they just didn't have a building yet.

If,..... a born again Spirit-filled Christian has the gift of interpretation already, and someone speaks in tongues nearby them, that gift could operate in a personal capacity as they were speaking. It's a rare operation of the gift, I only met one person who had it that way, but it is a legit operation of the gift nonetheless.

The 3 inspirational gifts can operate in a personal capacity, not just tongues alone. The Holy Spirit had to remind me about that.

ARBITER01 said:

It's not my theology, it is scripture,....

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but by the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

There is no way around this, unless you want to ignore this passage.

Experiences from people have to agree with scripture, if they don't, they are not to be accepted.

Click to expand...

Once again you are just focusing on one scripture while ignoring others.

The gift in 1 Cor 12 is called "different kinds of tongues", meaning it manifests in different ways. Then in 1 Cor 14, which is still a continuation of Paul's teaching on the gifts, Paul makes mention of the 3 major "kinds" or manifestations. 1) tongues for personal edification, 2) tongues for interpretation, 3) tongues as a sign to unbelievers. You are so focused on one that you can't see the others. If only one were true that would make Paul schizophrenic or some such thing because without different "kinds" he would contradict himself several times in the chapter. Heck even from one sentence to another. Paul wasn't mentally ill, nor contradicting himself, he was teaching the different "kinds".

Further, in actual practice (as others have pointed out), all the various "kinds" of tongues - when they happen in the appropriate situation - not only are extraordinarily useful, but they clearly point to God, His power, and His love for us. THAT is the entire point of the gifts. THAT is the type of fruit Jesus told us to follow as opposed to doctrinal games like "unless you want to ignore this passage". Nobody here is ignoring that passage or any passage, they just see things differently and to suggest they are ignoring scripture is just plain petty.