Dealing with Cessationists

jiminpa said:

Which scholars do you trust, since none of them agree with each other, or with what the Bible actually says? I tried the kind of teachability that relied on the "scholars," and found that I was pulled in too many directions. So you have to pick the men who are wrong that you trust above the other men who are wrong, and believe them. It leaves you following the doctrines of some men over others, and what God says becomes an afterthought. No thanks.

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Every commentator has their strong and weak points. With all of them I pick the meat from the bones. Someone I definitely would not trust is someone who would say that his interpretation of Scripture is the true one and everyone else is totally wrong. I don't "trust" these commentators as you think I do. I read what they have to say and take on board what is useful for me to know.

It is the same going to church and listening to the preacher's sermon. If I had the attitude that my interpretation of Scripture is the only one I can trust, I wouldn't be going to church and listening to sermons. They would be of no use to me because I would take the attitude that they are wrong and I am right. I don't believe every sermon I hear, but within those sermons are bits that I can take on board to add to my knowledge and wisdom.

jiminpa said:

No, it's like Johnny has the Plan of the Day and the radio, listening to the General, and everyone else is listening to a bunch of ensigns marching into to an ambush. Sure, Johnny probably gets killed too, but not because he was the one wrong. I'll take the word of my God over the word of man any day.

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I guess you sleep through the pastor's sermon at church. I would understand that because many sermons I have listen to have been yawners!

Albion said:

Which schools granted your Masterates?

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The correct spelling is Mastorate to describe a Master of Arts and a Master of Divinity.

My M.A. was conferred by the University of Waikato in New Zealand. My M.Div was gained through Nations University, an accredited Evangelical Bible college situated in New Orleans, Louisiana. It was a full three year on-line course.

[Staff Edited Quote]

Oscarr said:

I guess you sleep through the pastor's sermon at church. I would understand that because many sermons I have listen to have been yawners!

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No, as I have said earlier, I look for teachers who inspire and teach application of scripture.

I would run from a preacher/teacher who denounces the Bereans, even implicitly. I can't think of any reason aside from that one's own personal gain for so going against the Bible.

TruthSeek3r said:

How do you deal with Cessationists?

How do you approach Christians who disregard all modern miracle accounts as hearsay unless hard indisputable evidence is provided, in the form of peer-reviewed publications in medical journals, undeniable footage of a miracle, etc.?

Do you just share your testimony and hope for the best?

Do you engage in scriptural debates and go over controversial passages that Cessationists typically cite to make their case?

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All of the above.

TruthSeek3r said:

How do you deal with Cessationists?

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A useful place to begin might be to define what a Cessationist is. What do they believe? Here is a definition I saw online:

One of the common charges against those who hold to a cessationist position is that we do not “believe in the gifts.” Not true. A cessationist is not one who, as many wrongly suppose, rejects the spiritual gifts. Cessationism is, by definition, the theology which holds that only the Apostolic, or, Sign, gifts of tongues, interpretation of tongues (a separate gift by the way), healing, and miracles have ceased and are no longer in operation. All of the other gifts such as teaching, mercy, exhortation, giving, etc. are still very much in operation. So, do I believe in the spiritual gifts? Of course! Do I believe that the Apostolic (Sign) gifts have ceased? Yes. Keep in mind, too, that when God heals someone today, that is not the gift of physical healing. It is simply God acting according to His sovereign will and has nothing to do with any other individual(s) or their gifts or lack thereof. Justin Peters FAQs

It would seem to be that because he believes there are no Apostles today then there is no Apostolic gift today. Seems to still believe God heals today, but not through an apostle.

I think there could be common ground to start a useful discussion on with a Cessationist? The main sticking point seems to be on the definition of an apostle.

God Bless

TruthSeek3r said:

How do you deal with Cessationists?

How do you approach Christians who disregard all modern miracle accounts as hearsay unless hard indisputable evidence is provided, in the form of peer-reviewed publications in medical journals, undeniable footage of a miracle, etc.?

Do you just share your testimony and hope for the best?

Do you engage in scriptural debates and go over controversial passages that Cessationists typically cite to make their case?

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As with any issue such as this... I think we have to fall back to the absolute proof: Scripture.
There is ample proof in scripture to justify the Pentacostal/Charismatic position on the gifts of the spirit and ministry gifts. That is the best you can do anyway. If people reject scripture... no amount of evidence will convince them.

The goals have not been accomplished yet, therefore the tools and offices are still here.

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

There is no indication that the individual members of the body no longer receive these manifestations.

1 Corinthians 12:4-7 KJV
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

It is possible to both neglect and to stir up the gifting that is yours.
Every believer here has both a gift and a calling. You are a part of the body of Christ, and you possess a measure of His grace.

1 Timothy 4:14 KJV
14. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

2 Timothy 1:6 KJV
6. Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

We are all members of the body. We each have gifts differing according to the grace (ministry) given to each.
Romans 12:3-6 KJV
3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5. So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

If you do not know what your gifts/calling/grace is... put yourself in a position where you will experience compassion on needy people. Your compassion will stir up the gift and faith with compassion will help you manifest it.
However, it is important, as with all things of faith, that you believe and work in accordance with the Word. This is why Christians who do not accept the reality of the gifts do not manifest.

Galatians 3:5 KJV
5. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

RDKirk said:

For that matter, there is no evidence of even the Resurrection beyond witnesses.

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The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are the best attested events in Human History. For example the unnatural darkness at the time of the crucifixon was recorded by Historians as far away as Egypt, Greece and Rome. Frank Morrison wrote a book 'Who Moved the Stone', I commend it to you. God Bless

Oscarr said:

Justin searches the Scriptures concerning claims of the modern Charismatic movement and discovers that "these things are not so"!

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I believe many of the modern charismatics believe they have a direct line to God and receive new revelations directly, the bible is yesterday's manna, old hat, good enough for the rest of us who are not spiritual enough. Although if you send $39.95 to Sid Roth you can acquire some of this secret knowledge. At least until next week when a new revelation comes out.

TruthSeek3r said:

How do you approach Christians who disregard all modern miracle accounts as hearsay unless hard indisputable evidence is provided, in the form of peer-reviewed publications in medical journals, undeniable footage of a miracle, etc.?

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Claims without indisputable evidence are hearsay. Our good Lord exhorts us to be wise as serpents, not naive as an ostrich.

lismore said:

The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are the best attested events in Human History. For example the unnatural darkness at the time of the crucifixon was recorded by Historians as far away as Egypt, Greece and Rome. Frank Morrison wrote a book 'Who Moved the Stone', I commend it to you. God Bless

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excellent book- I read it

Collum Cille of Iona said:

Claims without indisputable evidence are hearsay. Our good Lord exhorts us to be wise as serpents, not naive as an ostrich.

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That's not the definition of "hearsay."

If someone says "I saw..." that is not "hearsay," that is direct eyewitness testimony, acceptable in any court of law...including the Mosaic Covenant and including the Messianic Covenant.

For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. -- 1 Corinthians 15

The important thing here is that the only evidence Paul presents is eyewitness testimony, and that was considered sufficient.

“In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” -- 2 Corinthians 13

Even if there was indisputable proof with cameras, eyewitnesses, fact checkers etc etc... that is not what we rely on. We rely on the Word of God. We walk by faith not by sight. The Lord told me some time ago, that it is our job to believe. That is all. Regardless of the results or the outcome. We believe... period. The rest is His business. We take care of our business... He takes care of His.
I lay hands on the sick and they recover. I do not care what happens or the results. I believe. That is my job.
He said we work miracles by faith. That is our job. To believe. I really do not care what the results look like. Even if we look like fools. I believe that by His stripes I have been healed. I don't care what the outward appearance is. He said He healed me... that is my confession.
God requires faith to please Him. You must believe that He is. AND you must believe that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. All else is doubt, unbelief, and non-pleasing to God.
Get with the profession (confession) of your faith. Till the day we die... we please God by confessing His word and having done all... stand!