Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

trophy33

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I am so glad that I had no religious background before being introduced to a Pentecostal church where tongues, prophecy, and healing were taught. Therefore I didn't have a lot of religious mumbo jumbo getting in the way of what the New Testament actually teaches.
Many people met pentecostal movement as their first church and therefore believe everything they hear there. More information come later in life.
 
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Yes, many people met pentecostal movement as their first church and therefore believe everything they hear there. More information come later in life.
It was good that I was discipled by some good mentors who helped me see the wood from the trees. As the years went on I discovered many things that were done and said that did not appear in the New Testament. It was only after I left the movement after 12 years that I had the confidence to accept that if things did not appear in the New Testament they weren't of the Holy Spirit. I also learned that nine out of every ten impressions were of the world, flesh or the devil, and because many Pentecostals depend on impressions and view the written Scriptures as the "dead letter" I could accept that many Pentecostal practices based on impressions were false, which included many manifestations of words of knowledge, extra-Biblical revelations, false claims of healing, casting out of demons which were not there, and manipulative prophetic words.

But I always knew that the gifts were available for today, but no longer knew how to genuinely manifest them. That still remains a problem for me because I am not prepared to do anything based on an impression. Therefore I am prepared to wait until the Holy Spirit makes it totally clear that it is He who is prompting me to manifest a spiritual gift.
 
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Guojing

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How do you know that instant healing of the sick and casting out of demons is not valid as an integral part of the preaching of the Gospel? If that is the view of the Holy Spirit then He should have clearly stated it in the New Testament. I see no New Testament Scripture that contradicts my view that the instant healing and casting out of demons associated with the preaching of the Gospel is valid right to the end of the Church Age and only ceases when the Church Age is completed and we go on to the day of Judgment.

Because Israel and the Body of Christ are not equivalent.

Not everything in the New Testament is written as instructions to the Body of Christ. Our instructions comes from Romans to Philemon
 
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Guojing

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The real test of what you believe is here where there is a good range of differing opinions. How boring it is when in a protected forum everyone is just going to agree with you? Also, if your doctrine is sound, then you would have no problem with the cut and thrust of those who oppose it. But it is usually those who don't have full confidence in their doctrinal view who are reluctant to put their views in a general theology forum because they are fearful that those who oppose will undermine their own confidence. That is why they choose to put their views in a protected forum where they don't have to put up with others who oppose their view.

Well said
 
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New Testament Christian

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Bibles have no faces - but Jesus does.

How do we "see" Jesus today?
How do we hear Jesus speak to us today?
How do we know Jesus today?

Only by reading the written word.

Only through the perfect, Holy Bible

To equate that which is perfect which has no gender.
To but then face to face as face meaning Jesus' literal face is very poor exegesis.

If I were these "experts" I'd demand the college return all my tuition payments.
How do you get perfect as Jesus when the word is not referring to a person.
It is a huge stretch to go from perfect which is not Jesus to face to face as being Jesus.
They do not equate.

What does make sense is the perfect being the completed Bible that we learn about Jesus from to seeing face to face as all knowledge about Jesus will be known when we receive the completed revelation of God.

God has given us everything we need to know about Him in His completed Word,
2Peter 1:3
As His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue.
 
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New Testament Christian

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In the mean time, try re-reading Romans 2:29.
Ask yourself. Is not circumcision of the heart referring to being born again?

Is Mark 16:15-16 and 1Corinthians 15:1-4 the gospel of Jesus?

Mark 16:15-16
And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.

Acts 8:37-39
Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Phillip and the Eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the Eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

Every account of jews and gentiles obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ involved water immersion.

 
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Where does James say that the elders raise people from the dead? I don't understand where you get that from.
It's readily apparent in the Greek since the word translated "raised" has the connotation of being raised from the dead.

How does that relate to what James says about a sick person calling for the elders of the church and the prayer of faith will cause the Lord to raise the person up (from his sick bed). It is a bit of a stretch to say that the person is raised up from the dead!
"Raised" in Greek is more directly roused from sleep, but has a colloqial meaning of being raised from the dead. Given the word choice and the eschatological theming of James' letter as a whole it's no stretch at all to link "saved" and "raised" and understand it as an end-times meaning with the ultimate resurrection of the dead being in mind.
 
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New Testament Christian

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Thats strange.

Guojing has made an assumption to come to his conclusion that Paul's "handkerchief" could no longer heal.

Paul 2Corinthians 12:8 prayed three times that he be healed. God said basically no.

So, sickness was not something God willed everyone to be free of.

Wasn't Gods will to take away Paul's infirmity while Paul had miraculous healing power.

Obviously the power was never in the "handkerchief" but in Gods will to heal by His choosing.

Timothy's ailment like Paul must have been Gods will, Luke 22:42
 
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Correct. I am not an Apostle of Christ therefore I don't preach the Gospel as an Apostle, therefore I don't manifest those gifts.

Well, I hope you don’t see the peaching of the gospel as an exclusive thing to an apostle only.
So I am sure you agree that all believers must preach the gospel, right?
Paul told the Corinthian church to imitate him just as he imitated Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1).
Paul said woe unto himself if he did not preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:16).
Jesus implied the gospel in Luke 9:62 in that if we look back (at our old life or way of doing things) vs. putting our hand to the plow we are not fit for the Kingdom of God. Meaning, we are not fit to enter the kingdom.

Anyways, speaking of apostles: We know Scripture implies that Paul is the last apostle (1 Corinthians 15:8). For one of the qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord (1 Corinthians 9:1). The saints are built upon the foundation of the prophets and the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). So there are no more apostles.

But lets say for the sake of argument that you think that there are apostles today. Have you seen apostles raise the dead and cleanse lepers? Or was it just hearsay?

Side Note:

If they do raise up the dead, can they always continue to do this?
Where are they today?
Can I meet them?
Can they demonstrate this for me?

You said:
I go along with this, that someone speaking in a foreign language which no one understands the person is a foreigner to us. Paul's view of "barbarians" were those who were not Roman who spoke Latin. The Barbarians spoke their own articulate expressive languages, and not gibberish in itself, in the same way that Hindu and Chinese speak in language quite foreign to us. But I disagree that the foreign languages are baby languages. The languages are mature, well developed region languages which may sound like gibberish to us because we don't understand them.
Not so. Paul's theme in 1Corinthians 13 is a totally different topic, and at the start of 1 Corinthians 14, he links love with the desire for spiritual gifts, preferably prophecy. There is no direct link to tongues at this stage.

There are technically no chapter breaks in the Bible (Although I do believe they were later added as a part of God’s plan for believers today). Anyways, Paul starts his speech on the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, then he warms that speech up with how if we speak with the tongues of angels, and have not love, we are nothing (1 Corinthians 13:1-2). For the speaking of the tongues of angels and yet not having love is in reference to how the church is not edifying (loving the church) by having an interpreter when one speaks in tongues (1 Corinthians 14). Paul’s whole point was to rebuke the Corinthians on the misuse of tongues in 1 Corinthians 13-14.

As for the babbling like that of babies: Again, while foreign languages may be intelligent, they do not sound like they have any meaning to us. It’s why there was a Tower of Babel. God confused the languages and nobody could understand each other because it just sounded like a bunch of babbling nonsense to each other. The same is true when a baby makes babbling noises. It does not make sense to us and it is also just babbling noises. I referenced babbling of babies because as I pointed to you before, Paul says, “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” (1 Corinthians 13:11). This is obviously again a future foreshadow to his point of speaking in tongues without an interpreter in 1 Corinthians 14.

You said:
But I do agree that general speaking in tongues without interpretation does cause confusion, as we can see in video clips of ultra-charismatics doing the same thing.

Do you believe in a private prayer language of speaking in tongues?
If so, where is the biblical proof of this?

You said:
The Canaanite woman and Jesus had nothing to do with tongues. It was about persistence in making requests known to God.

You do not seem to understand why I brought up the Canaanite woman, my friend. One lesson we can learn from the Canaanite woman is that we know that we can make real world examples or parables like Jesus can so as to parallel spiritual truth. We know that she was able to add on an extended real world example about how even the dogs eat the crumbs from the master’s table. This is a real world example that paralleled a spiritual truth of the Kingdom. Jesus was saying that He came for the lost house of the tribe of Israel. But the Canaanite woman knew there was a law of exception to this and she used a parable or real world example to illustrate that fact. Jesus did not correct her and say He could only make parables, but He commended her for her faith.

So my point about babies babbling is that they make noises that sounds like babbling to us.
We don’t understand the noises made. The same is true with foreign languages. It sounds like we are at the Tower of Babel. It’s why it’s called babbling. Noises that do not make sense. That is at the heart of what I am getting at and it ties in with 1 Corinthians 13:11. I was making a comparison or real world example.

You said:
Paul said nothing about the completion of a canon of Scripture when he taught about spiritual gifts.

One can say the same about Messianic prophecies. Do you think all the authors of OT Scripture who wrote Messianic prophecies were aware of how Jesus would die upon the cross, He was buried, and He would be risen three days later for man’s salvation? Sure, they may have recognized some Messianic prophecies and tied it to some future Messiah, but I don’t think they had the details (except maybe Abraham and a few select others who were really great in the faith in the OT).

You said:
This is adding a 19th Century theory into the chapter. None of the church fathers mentioned the cessation of the gifts upon the completion of the canon of Scripture, and even as late as the 16th Century, Calvin did not have that view of why the gifts ceased. In fact he says that 1 Corinthians 13:10 refers to the believer's death or the day of judgment for the cessation of the gifts.
This is extra-New Testament theory which may or may not be valid.

Not true, friend.

Chrysostom (347-407), a name that means “golden mouth” as he was an eloquent speaker, had a cessationist perspective. He was a contemporary of Athanasius’s later life, was Archbishop of Constantinople and defender of orthodoxy. He wrote of spiritual gifts as being obscure in his understanding. In his homily on 1 Cor. 12:1-2, He wrote, “This whole place is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now? Why look now, the cause too of the obscurity has produced us again another question: namely, why did they then happen, and now do so no more? [6]

St. Augustine, bishop of Hippo in northern Africa. He wrote that “in the earliest times, ‘the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues’, which they had not learned, ‘as the Spirit gave them utterance’. These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away”.[7]​

Sources:
[6] “Homily 29 on First Corinthians”, available at: CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 29 on First Corinthians (Chrysostom) .

[7] Augustine, Homilies on the Gospel of John 6:1-14, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [7:497-98].

You said:
I am enjoying our discussion and we don't have to agree to have great fellowship. I'm sure that some time when we meet in eternity we'll have a good laugh about it when both us may be proved wrong, or right, as we complete our knowledge of the things of God.

I am glad you are enjoying the discussion (even though we may not agree on this topic).

May God’s love, peace, and strength always be upon you and your family.
Oh, and I do pray and hope that we could look back at all this in the Kingdom and reflect as friends in Christ. But ultimately it is up to God and His Word that can decide such things (of course).
 
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Is Mark 16:15-16 and 1Corinthians 15:1-4 the gospel of Jesus?

Mark 16:15-16
And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.

Acts 8:37-39
Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Phillip and the Eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the Eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

Every account of jews and gentiles obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ involved water immersion.

This appears to be a discussion for another thread.

I believe the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

You can check out my reasoning with Scripture on how this is the one and only gospel message in this post here.

As for baptism: As I stated before, I believe Mark 16:15-16 is in reference to being spiritually baptized into one Spirit as a part of receiving Christ as our Savior, and not water baptism (See: 1 Corinthians 12:13).

As for Acts 2, and Acts 8: Peter and Philip were Jews and they did not come to a perfect knowledge yet in these chapters on the issue of water baptism vs. being baptized by Jesus into the Holy Ghost.

Anyways, you appear to be already aware of this CF thread:

What is the “one baptism” mentioned in Ephesians 4:5? (Note: I am not asking because I don't know).

But I think it is best to keep the discussion there.
I know you want to discuss it, but I wrote a lot already and you can simply read through the whole thread with an open mind if you like (if you have not done so already).
 
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Is Mark 16:15-16 and 1Corinthians 15:1-4 the gospel of Jesus?

Mark 16:15-16
And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.

Acts 8:37-39
Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Phillip and the Eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the Eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

Every account of jews and gentiles obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ involved water immersion.

Check out this article:

What is True Baptism? | Spirit & Truth

I would recommend reading this article here if you are truly interested in learn more beyond the thread I created. I am not in any way affiliated with them, and I do not agree with everything they believe, but I just so happen to agree with them on this topic involving Scripture.

May God bless you.
 
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@New Testament Christian

I also decided to move your other discussion to a CF thread I recently created here:

Do you believe the born again experience is a miracle from God?

I am hoping others will answer with God’s Word. In time, I may chime in with His Word if I feel it is necessary. But you have to understand, I think the topic is kind of basic and should be obvious to most believers. So that is why I did not continue to reply back to you. Hope you understand, and may God bless you.
 
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New Testament Christian

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Check out this article:

What is True Baptism? | Spirit & Truth

I would recommend reading this article here if you are truly interested in learn more beyond the thread I created. I am not in any way affiliated with them, and I do not agree with everything they believe, but I just so happen to agree with them on this topic involving Scripture.

May God bless you.

I hope you would discuss this most important subject with me through email coolmountainbell@gmail.com

Friend, Mark 16:15-16, Jesus commands His disciples to do the baptizing.

God baptized directly with the Holy Spirit.
Man only baptizes other men with water.

If you baptized a man today. Would you baptize them with the Holy Spirit?
You know you cannot. You would only baptize men that you have taught the gospel too with water.

Philip had Holy Spirit baptism. All miraculous knowledge, Acts 8, Philip baptized the Eunuch not by his own understanding but by the will of God guided by the miraculous knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

All apostles had miraculous knowledge. They made no mistakes in teaching and converting through the gospel.
John 14:26. All means all.

Also Holy Spirit baptism is not a command given by God.
Water baptism is Acts 10:47-48.
 
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I hope you would discuss this most important subject with me through email coolmountainbell@gmail.com

Friend, Mark 16:15-16, Jesus commands His disciples to do the baptizing.

God baptized directly with the Holy Spirit.
Man only baptizes other men with water.

If you baptized a man today. Would you baptize them with the Holy Spirit?
You know you cannot. You would only baptize men that you have taught the gospel too with water.

Philip had Holy Spirit baptism. All miraculous knowledge, Acts 8, Philip baptized the Eunuch not by his own understanding but by the will of God guided by the miraculous knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

All apostles had miraculous knowledge. They made no mistakes in teaching and converting through the gospel.
John 14:26. All means all.

Also Holy Spirit baptism is not a command given by God.
Water baptism is Acts 10:47-48.

Sorry. I am not interested. There is no purpose to go back and forth with you personally on this topic. I am at peace with it. If you don’t understand, you can read through the article, and read the thread I provided. I would also pray about it if you truly are looking to see otherwise before you read such information. If not, then there is no point of having a discussion on such a thing if your mind is closed. I am not one for generally for debating by private email. Such attempts I have had in the past on most occasions usually do not go anywhere. Besides, such truth should not be hidden. Also, outside discussions by email (on different topics) has led the other person to acting all emotional and telling me to repent, etc.

Side Note:

For your info. - Paul baptized the Ephesian believers into the Holy Spirit by laying his hands on them (See: Acts of the Apostles 19:1-6).
 
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It's readily apparent in the Greek since the word translated "raised" has the connotation of being raised from the dead.


"Raised" in Greek is more directly roused from sleep, but has a colloqial meaning of being raised from the dead. Given the word choice and the eschatological theming of James' letter as a whole it's no stretch at all to link "saved" and "raised" and understand it as an end-times meaning with the ultimate resurrection of the dead being in mind.
I still think that James was not referring to someone being raised from the dead through the prayers of the church elders. The question was, "Are there any sick among you?" Not, "Are there any dead bodies to be raised from the dead?" Dead people don't confess their faults to one another (which James sets out as part of the healing process).
 
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New Testament Christian

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Sorry. I am not interested. There is no purpose to go back and forth with you personally on this topic. I am at peace with it. If you don’t understand, you can read through the article, and read the thread I provided. I would also pray about it if you truly are looking to see otherwise before you read such information. If not, then there is no point of having a discussion on such a thing if your mind is closed. I am not one for generally for debating by private email. Such attempts I have had in the past on most occasions usually do not go anywhere. Besides, such truth should not be hidden. Also, outside discussions by email (on different topics) has led the other person to acting all emotional and telling me to repent, etc.

Side Note:

For your info. - Paul baptized the Ephesian believers into the Holy Spirit by laying his hands on them (See: Acts of the Apostles 19:1-6).

The Epheasians received gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Not Holy Spirit baptism.
Holy Spirit baptism was promised only to the apostles, Luke 24:49.

Paul water baptized the Epheasians for the forgiveness of their sins, Acts 22:16; Acts 2:38. Before he laid His hands on them as only the apostles had the power to impart miraculous gifts, through the laying on of hands.

This water baptism performed by Paul was no mistake,
For Apollos had already baptized them in the baptism of John, Acts 18:24-28.

Paul then educates the epheasians of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Teaching them to be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, for the same purpose he was water baptized, Acts 22:16.

This all occurred before they got miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit.

This proves Holy Spirit baptism does not occur instantly when one believes in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.For they were already believers, Acts 19::4-5.

It also proves we are begotten by the gospel not by a miracle performed on us by the Holy Spirit.

I will share the gospel with whoever asks me.
As I believe this is a direct command, Matthew 28:18-20.

My offer is always open for you or anyone who is interested.

Love you friend, 2 Timothy 2:2
 
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The Epheasians received gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Not Holy Spirit baptism.
Holy Spirit baptism was promised only to the apostles, Luke 24:49.
There were 120 people in the room when the Holy Spirit arrived and filled them. Read the context.

Paul water baptized the Ephesians for the forgiveness of their sins, Acts 22:16; Acts 2:38. Before he laid His hands on them as only the apostles had the power to impart miraculous gifts, through the laying on of hands.
Your Scripture quotes don't refer to the Ephesian disciples at all. Plucking verses out of the air to try and prove a point doesn't make your point credible at all. You need to read the relevant passage in Acts 19 and not try to add to what Luke has recorded.

This water baptism performed by Paul was no mistake,
For Apollos had already baptized them in the baptism of John, Acts 18:24-28.
Luke makes no mention of Paul water baptising the Ephesian disciples. A

Paul then educates the epheasians of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Teaching them to be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, for the same purpose he was water baptized, Acts 22:16.

This all occurred before they got miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Not credible because Luke did not say that a water baptism in the name of Christ actually occurred. You are putting words into Luke's mouth that aren't there. You imagine that Paul water baptised them, but that is all it is - imagination.

This proves Holy Spirit baptism does not occur instantly when one believes in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.For they were already believers, Acts 19::4-5.

It also proves we are begotten by the gospel not by a miracle performed on us by the Holy Spirit.
Quoting random verses out of context proves nothing.

I will share the gospel with whoever asks me.
As I believe this is a direct command, Matthew 28:18-20.

My offer is always open for you or anyone who is interested.

Love you friend, 2 Timothy 2:2
It is important that in order to be credible, you need to read what the Bible actually says and form your comments from that, instead of making speculative comments and then shoe-horning random verses to try and prove it.
 
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There were 120 people in the room when the Holy Spirit arrived and filled them. Read the context.


Your Scripture quotes don't refer to the Ephesian disciples at all. Plucking verses out of the air to try and prove a point doesn't make your point credible at all. You need to read the relevant passage in Acts 19 and not try to add to what Luke has recorded.

Luke makes no mention of Paul water baptising the Ephesian disciples. A


Not credible because Luke did not say that a water baptism in the name of Christ actually occurred. You are putting words into Luke's mouth that aren't there. You imagine that Paul water baptised them, but that is all it is - imagination.

Quoting random verses out of context proves nothing.


It is important that in order to be credible, you need to read what the Bible actually says and form your comments from that, instead of making speculative comments and then shoe-horning random verses to try and prove it.

Your accusations of me "plucking verses out if thin air" proves you did not study what I presented.

First actually read what I texted, then commit please.

Also, this is the first time we have had a conversation.
Right off, you have falsely accused me.
God commands us to teach but we can and should discern judgment on who is teachable, Matthew 7:6

That usually is not known until we get to know each other a little.

So far, I have a bad taste in my mouth from you Sir.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Your accusations of me "plucking verses out if thin air" proves you did not study what I presented.

First actually read what I texted, then commit please.

Also, this is the first time we have had a conversation.
Right off, you have falsely accused me.
God commands us to teach but we can and should discern judgment on who is teachable, Matthew 7:6

That usually is not known until we get to know each other a little.

So far, I have a bad taste in my mouth from you Sir.
Having to take correction is unpleasant and no one really enjoys it. I will go back and do a closer analysis of your previous post.
 
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