Purgatory Biblical or Error

Fervent

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Maybe. Or maybe it's only those people's concern for their fallen friend. Or their trust in God, irrespectively of how they demonstrated it. This point does not hold up if establishing doctrine is the point...which it is.
Taking it as far as establishing purgatory is certainly incorrect, as the text lays out the view that was actually in mind: resurrection. The prayers for the dead weren't for a current situation at all but an eschatological issue since final judgment is still future.
 
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Jipsah

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in Israel among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, everlasting fiery punishment NOT "torture."
OK. "fiery pinishment" but not torture. Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. "Oh, if God's doing it it mustn't be called torture, very bad optics".
 
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Everything Jesus taught about the eternal fate of the unrighteous matched what the Jews taught.

Bloviation. Jesus was contra the Jews, haven't you noticed? They convicted him of blasphemy and had him killed, as you might recall. He described them as 'sons of hell'. Now why do you think he called them that? Because they condemned others to hell of eternal torment, perhaps? Is that not what anyone who subscribes to ECT does - condemns the lost to hell? As ye judge, so will ye be judged. Harlots and taxmen into heaven before ye.
 
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Der Alte

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Bloviation. Jesus was contra the Jews, haven't you noticed? They convicted him of blasphemy and had him killed, as you might recall. He described them as 'sons of hell'. Now why do you think he called them that? Because they condemned others to hell of eternal torment, perhaps? Is that not what anyone who subscribes to ECT does - condemns the lost to hell? As ye judge, so will ye be judged. Harlots and taxmen into heaven before ye.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed,
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] (Judith xvi.17). Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCB
which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?
 
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Der Alte

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OK. "fiery pinishment" but not torture. Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. "Oh, if God's doing it it mustn't be called torture, very bad optics".
"저희는 영벌에, 의인들은 영생에 들어가리라 하시니라"
 
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rturner76

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Is taking up a collection of silver and making it a sin offering part of your church's doctrine about Purgatory??
I believe that is how indulgences came about. At first, it was an act of contrition or a prayer you would do for your own sins or the sins of a loved one in purgatory. After a while, they started accepting cash and it got out of control.
 
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• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Except for those who gave a thirsty fella a cup of water? Metaphor.

• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"

That undying worm. Metaphor.

• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

Idk who gnashes their teeth in a fiery furnace. Standard procedure is a few bloodcurdling screams then just sizzling sounds as I understand it. Metaphor.

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6

Don't see any eternal punishment here. Inconclusive.

• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23

Into the eternal fire, for what? Inconclusive.

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24

That's about Judas, who is remembered as history's greatest traitor. Inconclusive/ irrelevant.

• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

Sodom is restored? Well I hope they learned a valuable lesson. Again, inconclusive.

.A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me,

Out of context. This is about Jesus being one sacrifice for all and the imperfect Mosaic sacrificial system.

.Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.

That's because he comes to give life, and in abundance. You're intent on making him out to be a failure. Despite your Judaising proclivities, I can assure you that Jesus was not a Pharisee, nor does the gospel have anything in common with eternal torment, as confirmed by St Paul in Galatians, 1 Corinthians, Romans and Ephesians in particular.

.Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed,
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] (Judith xvi.17). Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCBwhich would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

Unfortunately for your doctrine, the God I know and love doesn't sit up late at night concocting exquisite tortures for ppl He doesn't like.

Now, against your handful of isolated scriptures and conclusory opinions which ignore the essential figurative, rhetorical and/or idiomatic aspects of those texts, I commend unto you this link to a swathe of proof texts in support of UR.
Christian Universalism in Scripture
 
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Christopher0121

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No sin shall enter Heaven (Revelation 21:27). For the believer who dies in friendship with God, and yet is still in need of cleansing from venial sin and attachments to this world, there is an act of cleansing grace historically known as Purgatorial Suffering which takes place after one's Particular Judgment...

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
New Catholic Bible
12 Now if anyone builds on that foundation with gold, silver, and precious stones, or with wood, hay, and straw, 13 the work of each person will come to light. For the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the worth of each person’s work 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will be rewarded. 15 If it burns down, that person will suffer loss. The person will be saved, though only by passing through fire.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I believe that is how indulgences came about. At first, it was an act of contrition or a prayer you would do for your own sins or the sins of a loved one in purgatory. After a while, they started accepting cash and it got out of control.
But it got under control again and there are no cash payments for indulgences. This was all corrected at the council of Trent. It was a sixteenth century thing that did not survive the sixteenth century except in the lurid imagination of some Protestants.
 
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But it got under control again and there are no cash payments for indulgences. This was all corrected at the council of Trent. It was a sixteenth century thing that did not survive the sixteenth century except in the lurid imagination of some Protestants.
It was not a temporary, passing thing.
It put a permanent dent in the infallibility claims about the historic Church. (capital C) And was one of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation, which also had far-reaching effects. (obviously)
 
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chevyontheriver

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It was not a temporary, passing thing.
It put a permanent dent in the infallibility claims about the historic Church. (capital C) And was one of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation, which also had far-reaching effects. (obviously)
Can you buy an indulgence today? Let me know the details when you buy one. I want to know all about it.

It was a sixteenth century problem, and except for some Protestants who incessantly beat the drum over it, it was gone by the middle of the 16th century. It was a German problem, and had nothing to do with infallibility except that an infallible council ruled against the sale of indulgences. It WAS indeed one of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation, which had far reaching effects (obviously). But since it is no longer even a thing, and hasn't been for hundreds of years, might it be time for some people to stop beating that drum as if it was still a thing?
 
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rturner76

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But it got under control again and there are no cash payments for indulgences. This was all corrected at the council of Trent. It was a sixteenth century thing that did not survive the sixteenth century except in the lurid imagination of some Protestants.
From my understanding, the cash option was offered so the Pope at the time could build a new Cathedral. I don't know which one though.
 
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chevyontheriver

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From my understanding, the cash option was offered so the Pope at the time could build a new Cathedral. I don't know which one though.
It was Tetzel, the German who cooked up the scheme as a fundraiser for rebuilding St. Peter's in Rome. The old St. Peters had lasted from about 300 AD and was in bad shape. He wan't exactly authorized to do what he did, selling indulgences for cash. His scheme AFAIK never was applied outside of Germany. And his scheme did not last through the middle of the century before being blasted by the Catholic Church.
 
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Through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ we are forgiven, redeemed, cleansed. purgatory denies the sacrifice of Jesus as being good enough for salvation. To say that we must suffer for our sins in purgatory is saying that Jesus suffering was insufficient. Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, only he paid the price, we can never pay for sins only Jesus did that.

to think that those who are saved by grace through faith have to suffer for their sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.
 
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Jipsah

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purgatory denies the sacrifice of Jesus as being good enough for salvation.
Nope. Only the saved go to purgatory.

To say that we must suffer for our sins in purgatory is saying that Jesus suffering was insufficient.
Baloney. Purgatory is Heaven's mud room, you ain't going in the house before you clean off.

Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone
Duh!
 
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Cockcrow

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Nope. Only the saved go to purgatory.

Baloney. Purgatory is Heaven's mud room, you ain't going in the house before you clean off.

Duh!
the idea that there is a "mud room" before going to Heaven is completely unbiblical, "only the saved go to purgatory" this is also unbiblical. nobody goes to Purgatory, it is a made up word and concept created by the traditions of men, not from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
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Cockcrow

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Nope. Only the saved go to purgatory.

Baloney. Purgatory is Heaven's mud room, you ain't going in the house before you clean off.

Duh!
you say duh yet your own man made doctrine of purgatory rejects Jesus sacrifice as enough for salvation, and I notice you don't cite any Bible and everything you say is not in the Bible, who taught you the saved go to purgatory? couldn't have been Gods word, had to be man. anyone who teaches or believes in purgatory is denying Christs death as sufficient for all sin.
 
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Jipsah

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you say duh yet your own man made doctrine of purgatory rejects Jesus sacrifice as enough for salvation
Already corrected you on that one; pay attention. Nobody goes to purgatory unless they've ben saved by the Blood of Christ,punto, period, full stop, end of. The unsaved go to whatever doom God has decreed., presumably hell. The saved stop off in purgatory to be purged (see? purgatory? purge?) of the last effects of their sins in life. If they weren't already saved, they wouldn't be there at all! The purpose is so that when they get to Heaven they don't stink up the place. So you had it 180 degrees out of phase. You were of the opinion that people went to purgatory to be saved,when the fact is that you have to already have been saved to get there at all. Understand now?

and I notice you don't cite any Bible and everything you say is not in the Bible
I don't see quoting any Scripture to support your false charge against the Roman Catholics, either. Different rules obtain for you and them, Zat it? Which is cool, coinsidering that your accusations against them were simply untrue, false, made-up-from-whole-cloth rubbish, based entirely upon your ignorance of what you were talking about, and your desire to thump the Catholics.

who taught you the saved go to purgatory?
The people against whom you made your false charges, and to whom you also owe an apology for having misrepresented their beliefs

couldn't have been Gods word, had to be man. anyone who teaches or believes in purgatory is denying Christs death as sufficient for all sin.
If you repeat that false charge again I'll have to assume that you're knowingly making accusations that you know to be untrue. Not a good thing.
 
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Jipsah

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purgatory denies the sacrifice of Jesus as being good enough for salvation.
After many repetitions that assertion remains false. And at this point I have to assume that you know it to be false, and simply continue to make it is simply to defame Roman Catholics regard to the whether it's true or not.

To say that we must suffer for our sins in purgatory is saying that Jesus suffering was insufficient.
No, it does not, and your false claim simply underscores the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about, and that you have, at best, a disturbing lack of regard for the truth.

Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone
Correct.
, only he paid the price, we can never pay for sins only Jesus did that.
Again correct.

to think that those who are saved by grace through faith have to suffer for their sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.
Sorry, but you have no idea what you're babbling about. It appears to boil down to , "Catholic, bad!". Your wholly unfounded and wholly untrue assertion is duly noted. Again. You may repeat it as ofren as you like, and it will still be false.
 
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