The rich and middle class to blame in the Covid Crisis?

timewerx · Nov 27, 2021

They seem to be greatly responsible in two things that made the crisis far more severe:

- Unnecessary travels (leisure mostly, sometimes even business travels that could have been avoided) which helped spread the virus all over the world rapidly which also facilitated its rapid mutation rates.

....And to add insult to injury.....

- Hoarding necessities causing supply shortages and price spikes, leading to great inconvenience and further difficulties to the poor.

In both cases, the poor as always, the worst affected.

muichimotsu · Nov 27, 2021

The problem is far more the rampant consumerist and commercialist aspects, a product of capitalism going unchallenged in how it can benefit society with innovation and competition, but without regulation and any sense of accountability for these companies that produce so much yet seem to provide so little to actually build infrastructure that benefits everyone.

timewerx · Nov 28, 2021

We might be able to enforce some kind of one "Purchasing ID" per household. This ID sets purchasing limit per week in "necessity items" including medicines and fuel to prevent hoarding.

It reeks of Russian socialism but NO, you're still paying for your own purchase, you're just not allowed to take as many as you think you need. It helps keep supplies sustainable for everyone and avoid price spikes/inflation.

Although consumerism can help create jobs, it can make paying the bills harder for the poor due to consumerism-driven inflation. You may have saved them with jobs but made the lives harder, what good is that? Higher profit margins and consumerism together, just hurt the poor.

Consumerism is also likely to blame for periodic economic recessions / depressions. The Bible teaches against indulgence (rather promotes restraint) and seems like we have real world results why it's bad.

jayem · Nov 28, 2021

The situation certainly wasn’t helped by a President who, for a few months, deliberately minimized the seriousness of this disease. (Ostensibly to avoid creating a “panic”)

Trump Admits He Downplayed Virus Dangers In Early Months Of Pandemic

Nor was it beneficial to speculate publicly that the virus was intentionally released from a Chinese research lab. And also, we were not well served by the disinformation, crackpot conspiracy theories, and ineffective drug treatments spread on social media and other websites.

There are plenty of misguided, and just plain bad actors who had a hand in this sad drama. I wouldn’t just single out overseas travelers, the affluent, and corporate interests.

timewerx · Nov 28, 2021

jayem said:
I wouldn’t just single out overseas travelers, the affluent, and corporate interests.

Hoarding is something that people can see for themselves, tensions have flared in the past due to hoarding.

We are likely going to get another round of lockdowns with the new "Omicron" virus variant that have now spread around the world.

Things can get worse this time as everyone is likely to have shorter patience. Leave some for the poor too, don't get too crazy that it causes price spikes. The Bible teaches against such behavior and such behavior does hurt others. This is a time not to be selfish. As Christians, keep in mind that money is not yours, no matter how hard you worked for it, use it according to how the Owner wants it used.

Bobber · Nov 28, 2021

timewerx said:
We might be able to enforce some kind of one "Purchasing ID" per household. This ID sets purchasing limit per week in "necessity items" including medicines and fuel to prevent hoarding.

No don't agree. Because once you establish a system like that you never get rid of it. Plus also things come up. Special occasions, anniversaries, weddings, any number of things like that where you need to increase buy. So we're going to go with a system where there's no fun or joy in life in anything?

It helps keep supplies sustainable for everyone and avoid price spikes/inflation.

You're going to have inflation anyway. You can't have governments printing money or adding to trillions and trillions of more debt and not have inflation. I'd say your Purchase ID would be like spiting into Niagara Falls thinking you're going to change the flow of the river.

muichimotsu · Nov 28, 2021

jayem said:
The situation certainly wasn’t helped by a President who, for a few months, deliberately minimized the seriousness of this disease. (Ostensibly to avoid creating a “panic”)

Trump Admits He Downplayed Virus Dangers In Early Months Of Pandemic

Nor was it beneficial to speculate publicly that the virus was intentionally released from a Chinese research lab. And also, we were not well served by the disinformation, crackpot conspiracy theories, and ineffective drug treatments spread on social media and other websites.

There are plenty of misguided, and just plain bad actors who had a hand in this sad drama. I wouldn’t just single out overseas travelers, the affluent, and corporate interests.

But Trump has a strong association with corporate interests, much as he tries to act like he cares about the common man (except as they benefit him, because he fits squarely somewhere on the dark triad, little bit of narcissism, more Machiavellian personality).

The disinformation benefits social media's corporate interests, because engagement=profit, arguably.

Capitalism in the crony, consumerist and commercialist senses that focus so much on profit that there's no room for human value in itself apart from labor is an underlying problem with society as it modernizes even as it provides benefits that are certainly there (competition, at least in a genuine sense that isn't hamstrung by deregulation, oligopoly, etc)

Matt5 · Nov 28, 2021

timewerx said:
They seem to be greatly responsible in two things that made the crisis far more severe:

- Unnecessary travels (leisure mostly, sometimes even business travels that could have been avoided) which helped spread the virus all over the world rapidly which also facilitated its rapid mutation rates.

....And to add insult to injury.....

- Hoarding necessities causing supply shortages and price spikes, leading to great inconvenience and further difficulties to the poor.

In both cases, the poor as always, the worst affected.

The religion of equality is to blame.

Equality doesn't just mean everybody gets the same stuff. It also means all countries equal - via globalization, immigration and climate-change wealth redistribution.

Western trade with China allowed China to rise up. US help put China in a position to do gain-of-function research on bat viruses. And then travel to/from China allowed the virus to spread.

Equality also promotes stability which enhances the growth of corruption, like at US universities and in the government. US government scientists facilitated the gain-of-function research in China.

Landon Caeli · Nov 28, 2021

timewerx said:
They seem to be greatly responsible in two things that made the crisis far more severe:

- Unnecessary travels (leisure mostly, sometimes even business travels that could have been avoided) which helped spread the virus all over the world rapidly which also facilitated its rapid mutation rates.

....And to add insult to injury.....

- Hoarding necessities causing supply shortages and price spikes, leading to great inconvenience and further difficulties to the poor.

In both cases, the poor as always, the worst affected.

I actually think the poor are mostly to blame. But no, I don't typically like pointing fingers at groups.

Tinker Grey · Nov 28, 2021

Larniavc · Nov 28, 2021

timewerx said:
They seem to be greatly responsible in two things that made the crisis far more severe:

- Unnecessary travels (leisure mostly, sometimes even business travels that could have been avoided) which helped spread the virus all over the world rapidly which also facilitated its rapid mutation rates.

....And to add insult to injury.....

- Hoarding necessities causing supply shortages and price spikes, leading to great inconvenience and further difficulties to the poor.

In both cases, the poor as always, the worst affected.

The poor are always the worst affected because they have the least social capital to ‘defend’ themselves.

But anyone from any class is to blame if they don’t take responsibility to mask up, socially distance and vax up.

timewerx · Nov 28, 2021

Bobber said:
No don't agree. Because once you establish a system like that you never get rid of it.

I'm pretty sure they'll get rid of it because as soon as things got back to normal (more or less), since it's extra work for those concerned for no additional profit.

Plus also things come up. Special occasions, anniversaries, weddings, any number of things like that where you need to increase buy. So we're going to go with a system where there's no fun or joy in life in anything?

It's no fun for the less fortunate either to turn up at the grocery store and some of the things they need are gone (hoarded by the affluent).

Our fun at the cost of others is no fun at all.

You're going to have inflation anyway. You can't have governments printing money or adding to trillions and trillions of more debt and not have inflation. I'd say your Purchase ID would be like spiting into Niagara Falls thinking you're going to change the flow of the river.

Because the government is singlehandedly driving inflation, our best action is to help them drive inflation even more by uninhibited spending?

timewerx · Nov 28, 2021

Larnievc said:
The poor are always the worst affected because they have the least social capital to ‘defend’ themselves.

But anyone from any class is to blame if they don’t take responsibility to mask up, socially distance and vax up.

Mask and social distancing is effective and I also strongly recommend its use for your own protection but it doesn't entirely stop the spread of the disease.

The mask can protect you very well but doesn't stop you from transmitting the disease through "indirect contact".

The obvious solution is simply restrict travel.

timewerx · Nov 28, 2021

Landon Caeli said:
I actually think the poor are mostly to blame. But no, I don't typically like pointing fingers at groups.

They are to blame in some things like not wearing masks or avoiding vaccines.

But they almost never travel. Hard to blame them for bringing the Delta virus in the country or the most recent one which is now the Omicron variant.

Spreading the virus globally is bigger accountability because that gives the virus much better opportunities to mutate by getting exposed much larger set of population, in this case, the entire world.

Bobber · Nov 28, 2021

timewerx said:
It's no fun for the less fortunate either to turn up at the grocery store and some of the things they need are gone (hoarded by the affluent).

Our fun at the cost of others is no fun at all.

I just don't your idea would work anyway. To regulate it would be a nightmare. Plus also the very wealthy always have a way as a usual thing of getting what they want.

My daughters is friends with a lot of very wealth individuals. With another subject Covid booster shots in my part of the world you're only eligible if you're a certain age. People she knows tell her they've got their boosters she asked them how is that possible you're not eligible they reply they know people. Strings are pulled.

dogs4thewin · Nov 28, 2021

Larnievc said:
The poor are always the worst affected because they have the least social capital to ‘defend’ themselves.

But anyone from any class is to blame if they don’t take responsibility to mask up, socially distance and vax up.

Also the poor need things when they need them and will be forced to pay whatever the price is. Whereas, people with money can pick and choose when to buy things based on deals. For example, a poor person that wears a winter coat until it literally falls apart and they are forced to buy a new one. Meanwhile, someone with money has the ability to wait until spring when the winter stuff goes on sale to get a better price. Healthcare works that way here too if you have regular check-ups and tests they can catch things earlier and usually treat it cheaper. Schools work the same way if a particular public school or school district is seen to be bad and unable to provide a decent education the people with money are more likely to either move or pay to attend a private school. The poor that have no other options but the public school they are zoned for are the ones that suffer the most when a school or district is unsafe or cannot provide a solid education.

timewerx · Nov 28, 2021

Bobber said:
I just don't your idea would work anyway. To regulate it would be a nightmare. Plus also the very wealthy always have a way as a usual thing of getting what they want.

Exactly. It's added work for no profit that's why it's going to be temporary. A similar system was implemented in our country for a time, back in 2020. Seemed to have worked, we're low income and didn't see any supply issues. It helped curb the problem of hoarding by the middle class and rich.

The purpose of the ID is to prevent cheating (assigning each member of your household/family to get one cart each and giving them money to pay for their cart fill, cheating the quota per household)

The grocery stores enforced the quota at the cashier, security personnel at the mall/grocery entrance enforced the household ID. That's how it worked here and it helped even if not 100% fool proof.

My daughters is friends with a lot of very wealth individuals. With another subject Covid booster shots in my part of the world you're only eligible if you're a certain age. People she knows tell her they've got their boosters she asked them how is that possible you're not eligible they reply they know people. Strings are pulled.

They're simply paying for it. You probably heard in the news some nurses are diluting the shots so they can get their own vaccine stock they can sell to those willing to pay for it. It's true. We have the same problems here in the poor parts of Asia. It's not just rumors as people are actually caught doing it.

Unfortunately, these corrupt individuals are again cheating the system at the cost of the poor. The diluted shots are given to the poor.

Our world is just rigged to punish the poor. As @Larnievc said earlier, the poor have less money to protect themselves in this crisis, while the middle class and rich are spreading the disease globally, help drive inflation, hoarding supplies, and worst of these is creating demand for illegally shifting vaccine supplies from the poor.

Spending "hard earned" money to the heart's desire, obsession to one's self preservation is not good and it actually hurts the poor.

I've read news on fears that renewed spending post-Covid crisis is going to lead to runaway inflation and crash the US dollar. Government shifting the blame to the middle class and the rich in their spending habits to cover up their dollar minting or both are almost equally to blame.

Rachel20 · Nov 28, 2021

timewerx said:
Leave some for the poor too

How would we know it gets to the poor? Can't others just come in behind and grab it up? If we donate to charities, can't they take 90 cents off the dollar for "administrative costs" and then just pass the dime to another charity that will take their cut too? Same thing if we donate at the PED prompts, or pay taxes for social safety nets - how do we know it really gets to those in need? Giving alms in Biblical times didn't have this problem - it was done directly with no middle men. I really wish there was a way we could help people directly again. Maybe you can come up with an idea.

muichimotsu · Nov 29, 2021

Matt5 said:
The religion of equality is to blame.

Equality doesn't just mean everybody gets the same stuff. It also means all countries equal - via globalization, immigration and climate-change wealth redistribution.

Western trade with China allowed China to rise up. US help put China in a position to do gain-of-function research on bat viruses. And then travel to/from China allowed the virus to spread.

Equality also promotes stability which enhances the growth of corruption, like at US universities and in the government. US government scientists facilitated the gain-of-function research in China.

So...you'd advocate for equity right? Equal opportunity, not equal outcome.

Also...do you think we just shouldn't have traded with China ever? Good luck being able to find a country that produces as much (even if they do so with massive human rights violations and that should be addressed) and has access to materials that make them one of the best places for production of major tech components, afaik. Our resources in that area are severely lacking and we're better suited to finding other areas we excel in to offer those products or services

Bat viruses? You sure it wasn't a pangolin one? That's also a theory, though so what if it's either? You assume with little basis that gain of function research is innately bad rather than it potentially having bad outcomes because of assuming malice rather than explaining it by some variant of ignorance, violating Hanlon's razor

timewerx · Nov 29, 2021

Rachel20 said:
How would we know it gets to the poor? Can't others just come in behind and grab it up? If we donate to charities, can't they take 90 cents off the dollar for "administrative costs" and then just pass the dime to another charity that will take their cut too? Same thing if we donate at the PED prompts, or pay taxes for social safety nets - how do we know it really gets to those in need? Giving alms in Biblical times didn't have this problem - it was done directly with no middle men. I really wish there was a way we could help people directly again. Maybe you can come up with an idea.

Off my mind is an app that connects donors and poor families directly completely online so you can donate to families directly, eliminating the middleman. Donors and families who enroll in this app is background checked.

Something like a dating site with family making their profile page and their needs but is one-way for the protection of donors. App is self-revenue generating via ads.

So the app doesn't take any money from you but simply makes it possible for to directly donate necessities to families like ordering from online stores and sending it directly to their address.

I suppose the app can also recommend you online stores, nearer to the family to save you on shipping costs. The app should also be able to accept transaction and tracking info from the purchase for recording purposes so we know who's getting some and who's getting none.

The rich and middle class to blame in the Covid Crisis?

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