Who are these sinners that live forever?

Spiritual Jew

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Of Course I do. You Understand we are already in that city, don't you? (Hebrews 12:22)
Yes, I do. But, we're not yet in the new heavens and new earth.

Right.

Since, you agree that PRESENTLY, Those in Christ are NOW IN that City.
and Since you agree that, PRESENTLY, that City IS already come down to earth and is the Church, the Bride of the Lamb,
and Since you agree PRESENTLY those outside of that City are indeed in CLOSE PROXIMITY to those of us inside that City, and you agree those of us inside that city are PRESENTLY calling out to all outside the city who thirst to "come and drink freely of the warter of life", water you agree is available PRESENTLY, I'm therefore unclear about your objection to what is demonstrably a PRESENT REALITY you agree with.
It's talking about people that are going to be cast into the lake of fire being outside the city on the new heavens and new earth. No one has been cast into the lake of fire yet. That will happen on judgment day. So, THAT is not a present reality.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Are you suggesting I take a Sharpie and redact that Passage from my Bible?

Seem your objection is strictly about the LOCATION of eternal anguish and screaming, and not the mere existence of it?
Out of sight, out of mind is it?

The fact that people languish and scream in agony for eternity won't bother you as long as you don't have to see it?
What is your point here? Are you arguing that we will be bothered for eternity about the torment other people are suffering?
 
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Acts29

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You indicate "after" these things ( your list) when in fact none of these things have occured. No such third group exists. Blessings
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. "

I understand that the things have not occurred at this time. But, at the time of the NJ, they have occurred. After all those things, we read about sinners outside the city of the NJ. That is what I was asking about.
 
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Acts29

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There is no 3rd group. All those not found in the book of life will have their part in the LOF SECOND DEATH. No sinner can live forever. This simply places them outside the city and outside the NHNE where righteousness dwells forever.

It doesn't say they are outside the NHNE. It just says they are outside the NJ and not allowed in. Assuming you are right and the sinners are outside of the new creation, it would be quite strange to say they cannot enter the city. That would be obvious.

See these scriptures below...,

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;
they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Doesnt make any sense for the LOF to be situated on the restored NHNE where Gods presence will be.

2thess 1
This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
The time of the beast is a very short window of time that does not include most of the history of humanity. Their destruction is clear. None of these scriptures above answers the OP questions.
 
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Acts29

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Scripture tis clear that Sin and Death exist forever. They are NEVER eradicated. The Unrepentant will NEVER be free from Sin and Death. They will NEVER share in Christ's Victory.

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hades is the place where the souls of the dead go until judgment. Death is pretty straight forward. I don't see how you can say these things will be forever. Perhaps I am not following you here?

Victory over Sin and Death is only and ever for those IN CHRIST.

Since we who are in Christ have Already come into the New Jerusalem City (Hebrews 12:22), and the as yet unrepentant are already here on earth, "outside the gates of the city, practicing their Lies", we can know Revelation 22:14 is describing a present reality.

As is Revelation 22:2
In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

If we say this is describing a time when all things have already been made anew, then there would be no nation still in need of "healing", however the text is clear, the nations, at this point, are in need of healing and the leaves of the tree are here for that purpose, which again cements this as a present reality. The leaves of the tree are, at this moment, healing the nations. And they can not fail (Matthew 16:18)

Likewise Revelation 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

The only people who thirst are the as yet unsaved, who have yet to drink the water of life, for "one drink and ye shall never thirst again" (John 4:14, John 6:35)
Again, this is clearly a PRESENT REALITY.

That is an interesting take. I would differ with the understanding of Hebrews 12. That prophecy about entering the NJ will take place, and THEN God will shake heaven and earth one more time. That is the point the writer was making, as I understand it. Obviously, we are not in the city at this time. We are still here on earth. The NJ is in heaven until the day it comes down to the earth. That is when the leaves will be for healing, etc. However, I do appreciate that fact that you do acknowledge the sinners outside the city, just as it is written. Most people just try to sweep that away because it doesn't fit into their box.
 
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Acts29

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You are very weird if you believe God would restore the heaven and earth..... and then leave the damned screaming in anguish for an eternity just outside the gates of our eternal home of a NHNE where that type of behavior should no longer be remembered no more.

Scripture doesn't say anything about screaming in anguish. It plainly says the wealth of the nations (from outside the city) will be brought into it. You added what you wanted to dismiss what is plainly written. Sinners are written to be outside of the city and unable to enter. No one seems to be able to believe or explain what it says because it doesn't fit into their box.
 
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Acts29

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It's not strange in a book filled with symbolism. The New Jerusalem is not a literal city, it's the church/bride of Christ (Rev 21:2,9), so it's simply describing all of those whose names are not written in the book of life being separate from those whose names are in the book of life.

The people AND the city are the bride. Not a literal city? Why are we given dimensions, description of the gates and foundations, streets of gold, etc? All that is not real? Is heaven real? Is Jesus real? Is He not really coming back? What point do we stop with the symbolism?

Revelation 20:15 tells us that they will be cast into the lake of fire, so why would you think they would be anywhere else?

I realize almost everyone missed the point of the OP. It plainly states AFTER the judgment, NHNE, NJ, THEN sinners are outside of the city. But, if you believe none of those things are real, then I guess anything is possible. Perhaps, Christ already came and we are in a parallel earth somewhere.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I understand that the things have not occurred at this time. But, at the time of the NJ, they have occurred. After all those things, we read about sinners outside the city of the NJ. That is what I was asking about.
Understood however when it does happen the third group, as you say, will be in condemnation. They will have already suffered the second death at the same time with those who have everlasting life.
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me."
Blessings
 
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jeffweedaman

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The time of the beast is a very short window of time that does not include most of the history of humanity.

Not so, read the scriptures again and notice that it is ALL those not written in the book of life FROM the foundation of the world.
This forbids your understanding of a third group surviving outside the city.

The bride ( those in the Book of life ) is the city....and we dwell on the NHNE where righteousness dwells...just like it was at the foundation of the world. Everything is fully restored then.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Perhaps, Christ already came and we are in a parallel earth somewhere.

Christ has already come the first time, and as a result we are seated with him in the heavenly realms through his exploits.
But Jesus remains in heaven until he comes a second time after this period of Gods patience and Grace to restore all things without delay.
 
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Timtofly

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The whole world had their sin taken away, only people who trust in The Messiah has received and possesses God's free gift of Eternal Life, they are born again a child of God. Those are the believers who have the Holy Spirit.

So are you saying the whole world has received The Holy Spirit and is born again, a child of God.
I am saying the Holy Spirit works in every human. Not just a few. A few humans accept the Atonement with faith, because of this work.
 
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d taylor

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I am saying the Holy Spirit works in every human. Not just a few. A few humans accept the Atonement with faith, because of this work.

Accepting the atonement does not give Eternal Life, it is faith/trust/belief in The Messiah that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

If you believe it is faith in the atonement that gives Eternal Life, where is that stated in The Bible.

Because there are quite a few verses stating it is faith in the Messiah that gives Eternal Life.

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
 
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Ceallaigh

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You are very weird if you believe God would restore the heaven and earth..... and then leave the damned screaming in anguish for an eternity just outside the gates of our eternal home of a NHNE where that type of behavior should no longer be remembered no more.

That was the was set up in Luke 16:19-31, with the rich man being tormented in hell talking to Abraham in heaven.
 
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d taylor

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Spiritual Jew

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The people AND the city are the bride. Not a literal city? Why are we given dimensions, description of the gates and foundations, streets of gold, etc?
To give a picture of the magnificence and beauty of Christ's church. Do you take Ephesians 2:19-22 literally?

Eph 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Is this talking about a literal physical building with physical foundations, etc.? Of course not, right?

A building built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets? Interesting. Reminds me of this:

Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Like Revelation 21, this passage from Ephesians 2 describes the church in a figurative way. Is there anything wrong with that? Does it mean the church isn't real just because it's described symbolically as being a building/holy temple built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone of the building?

All that is not real?
The symbols aren't real, but what it symbolizes, which is the bride of Christ/the church is real.

Is heaven real?
It sure is. Can it be described in a way that our puny minds can comprehend? I don't believe so. Hence the symbolism that we CAN understand and picture in our minds.

Is Jesus real?
Don't ask ridiculous questions, please. Of course He is.

Is He not really coming back? What point do we stop with the symbolism?
Yes, He's coming back. You're acting as if there isn't any symbolism in the book of Revelation when there clearly is. Is everything symbolic? No. Is a lot of it symbolic. Yes. Why is that a problem for you?

I realize almost everyone missed the point of the OP. It plainly states AFTER the judgment, NHNE, NJ, THEN sinners are outside of the city. But, if you believe none of those things are real, then I guess anything is possible. Perhaps, Christ already came and we are in a parallel earth somewhere.
Again, not believing that it's talking about a literal physical city does not mean I don't believe it's talking about something real. The church is very real. Just because something is described symbolically doesn't mean the symbols don't represent something real.

It's talking about those who are cast into the lake of fire being separate from those who inherit the new heavens and new earth. That's it. Don't make it any more complicated than that. The idea that those whose names are not written in the book of life will be eternally in close proximity to those whose names are written in the book of life does not make any sense.
 
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jeffweedaman

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To give a picture of the magnificence and beauty of Christ's church. Do you take Ephesians 2:19-22 literally?

Eph 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Is this talking about a literal physical building with physical foundations, etc.? Of course not, right?

A building built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets? Interesting. Reminds me of this:

Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Like Revelation 21, this passage from Ephesians 2 describes the church in a figurative way. Is there anything wrong with that? Does it mean the church isn't real just because it's described symbolically as being a building/holy temple built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone of the building?

The symbols aren't real, but what it symbolizes, which is the bride of Christ/the church is real.

It sure is. Can it be described in a way that our puny minds can comprehend? I don't believe so. Hence the symbolism that we CAN understand and picture in our minds.

Don't ask ridiculous questions, please. Of course He is.

Yes, He's coming back. You're acting as if there isn't any symbolism in the book of Revelation when there clearly is. Is everything symbolic? No. Is a lot of it symbolic. Yes. Why is that a problem for you?

Again, not believing that it's talking about a literal physical city does not mean I don't believe it's talking about something real. The church is very real. Just because something is described symbolically doesn't mean the symbols don't represent something real.

It's talking about those who are cast into the lake of fire being separate from those who inherit the new heavens and new earth. That's it. Don't make it any more complicated than that. The idea that those whose names are not written in the book of life will be eternally in close proximity to those whose names are written in the book of life does not make any sense.

You explained this really well.
Looks like act 29 has nothing to refute.
Nudge nudge bump.
 
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jeffweedaman

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That was set up in Luke 16:19-31, with the rich man being tormented in hell talking to Abraham in heaven.

Hope I have quoted you correctly.

A huge gulf separated them so none could not pass over to the other side.

Walking out of the literal open gate of the NJ would not get us to this other side on a NHNE.
 
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Acts29

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To give a picture of the magnificence and beauty of Christ's church. Do you take Ephesians 2:19-22 literally?

Eph 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Is this talking about a literal physical building with physical foundations, etc.? Of course not, right?

A building built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets? Interesting. Reminds me of this:

Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Like Revelation 21, this passage from Ephesians 2 describes the church in a figurative way. Is there anything wrong with that? Does it mean the church isn't real just because it's described symbolically as being a building/holy temple built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone of the building?

The symbols aren't real, but what it symbolizes, which is the bride of Christ/the church is real.

It sure is. Can it be described in a way that our puny minds can comprehend? I don't believe so. Hence the symbolism that we CAN understand and picture in our minds.

Don't ask ridiculous questions, please. Of course He is.

Yes, He's coming back. You're acting as if there isn't any symbolism in the book of Revelation when there clearly is. Is everything symbolic? No. Is a lot of it symbolic. Yes. Why is that a problem for you?

Again, not believing that it's talking about a literal physical city does not mean I don't believe it's talking about something real. The church is very real. Just because something is described symbolically doesn't mean the symbols don't represent something real.

It's talking about those who are cast into the lake of fire being separate from those who inherit the new heavens and new earth. That's it. Don't make it any more complicated than that. The idea that those whose names are not written in the book of life will be eternally in close proximity to those whose names are written in the book of life does not make any sense.

You explained this really well.
Looks like act 29 has nothing to refute.
Nudge nudge bump.

Observe the way Jesus explained the scriptures. Show me one time He said/implied they were symbolic.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Observe the way Jesus explained the scriptures. Show me one time He said/implied they were symbolic.

The New Heaven and Earth
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

8 But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, full of the seven last plagues, came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

The New Jerusalem
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God.


The NEW JERUSALEM is all about the people he came to die for...and save.
 
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Acts29

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The New Heaven and Earth
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

8 But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, full of the seven last plagues, came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

The New Jerusalem
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God.


The NEW JERUSALEM is all about the people he came to die for...and save.

Nowhere did Jesus say the NJ is symbolic. You assume. Perhaps correctly, and perhaps incorrectly. Don't forget the following verses including measurements.

Rev 20:15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

Notice the precise dimensions of the city, roughly 1500 miles square. Have you ever considered that this NJ is the mountain the filled the earth that Daniel (chapter 2) saw? Have you also ever considered that the city AND the saints, in other words the whole kingdom, is the bride?

Rev 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

If the city is symbolic, how does it come down from heaven to the earth? Did the church come from heaven to the earth, or vice versa? Jesus came down from heaven to build the church on earth. Anyway, if your mind is made up then there is no value in arguing.
 
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